Cummins for a 40-gonna have to pick one one day (1 Viewer)

[Volcano cruiser]

Well the transition has worn off and I'm back in the USA. Worse while my 40 is being outfitted to go through inspection with a view to eventual export, i.e. not even finished this project, I'm looking forward to the next thing. The chances of me getting a 1HD-T for a reasonable price to swap into a 40 or an 80 now that I'm back here in the States is slim. It could happen but I'm doubting it. I am however surrounded by Dodge pick ups running the ubiquitous Cummins engine series. Next to Toyota, Cummins has probably the next best overseas service network should I ever go Cruisin abroad again. So now we get to engines, i.e. which Cummins for a 40. The most common swap that I have read about here is the 4BT. There are a few mentions of the 6BT but no writeups so I think there is mostly a string of abandoned projects mostly because of engine height. However as there is no data, guessing there. Then I read this article about the 5.9 L Cummins common rail engine and saw this pic and this seemed to be a possibility. I mean if they fit it in a Camaro, it should be able to fit in a 40. Cleaner more efficient burning diesel one would think. As I have no experience with this engine I thought I'd ask here as there is a fairly substantial Cummins in Cruiser following here. Do you guys think that this is a reasonable possibility for a diesel swap in a 40?

5.9L Cummins Common-Rail Camaro - Diesel Power Magazine

 

[KKell]

its been on here in an 80 series, most people put a 4bt in if there going cummins. the parts are pretty much interchangeable between a 6bt and 4bt and it goes without saying that if your doing a cummins swap you do it right, gotta be a mechanical version, no efi. For ease and extra room in the engine bay, not to mention fuel economy i would go with the 4bt. if your lucky you can find an old bread truck on craigslist for cheap with a 4bt and nv4500 in it(someone can correct me i dont remember if they came mated or not). But seeing as how the 6bt and 4bt are pretty much the same height you may have to raise it a lot either way.

Look for someone whose done a 4bt swap on here and ask them how it went. 4bts can be easily tuned to over 200hp which is more than enough for a cruiser. IMO for what its worth.

 

[Volcano cruiser]

its been on here in an 80 series, most people put a 4bt in if there going cummins. the parts are pretty much interchangeable between a 6bt and 4bt and it goes without saying that if your doing a cummins swap you do it right, gotta be a mechanical version, no efi. For ease and extra room in the engine bay, not to mention fuel economy i would go with the 4bt. if your lucky you can find an old bread truck on craigslist for cheap with a 4bt and nv4500 in it(someone can correct me i dont remember if they came mated or not). But seeing as how the 6bt and 4bt are pretty much the same height you may have to raise it a lot either way.

Look for someone whose done a 4bt swap on here and ask them how it went. 4bts can be easily tuned to over 200hp which is more than enough for a cruiser. IMO for what its worth.

Interesting point about the EFI. Given that which engine you swap in has a great deal to do with what is available I have read up on most of the 4BT swap threads. I have always wondered though if the 4BT and the 6BT are about the same height, what is the problem of swapping in the 6BT? Obviously it is longer in because it has the two additional cylinders but is it too long for the 40 engine bay? If so why have others thought that they could shoehorn one in, did they just not measure before buying?

 

[BC40]

The 6BT has been done in 40, 55, 60, 80 and possibly other series cruisers. There's also build threads on pirate.
An example of a 4o series with cummins/auto conversion was a 45 at a local event (Cruiser Days) a few years back, post 7&8 of this thread: https://forum.ih8mud.com/trails-eve...th-2007-coastal-cruiser-landcruiser-days.html . The truck was built by Kodiak I think.
I don't think I've seen it done with an intercooler though. If I was doing this I would go with an early 12V 6BT myself .

 

[KKell]

yeah i didnt say it couldnt be done, i just said it would be easier with a 4bt. I would just like to clarify though if you put it in a 6bt it should be a 5.9l 12valve Mechanical one. The 12 valves were made until model year 1998.5 i believe. which is when they switched to 5.9l 24valve which is efi. on my 1998 ram2500 i got about 17.5l/100km on my cummins 12 valve. lots of power, loads of torque, i blew my rear diff . the major difference is that the fuel screw is available on the 12valve and not on the 24valve, which allows you to control the amount of fuel being injected(obviously). And in price, the 12 valve is older and easily found.

IMO the 6bt and 4bt are both great engines. the 6bt will be more crammed, and much heavier. The 6bt is rated from 1994-1998 to between 170-215 hp and 420-460 pound-feet of torque depending on whether you had a manual or automatic and weigh around 1100lbs. the 4bt is rated at 130hp and 355 footpunds of torque and weighs 745 lbs.

So the real question is how much power are you after? and how much weight do you want in your front end?

 

[Tapage]

to me the breaking point about which engine to run it's

1. room ( for a front mounted intercooler ! )

2. weight ..

 

[The Phoenician]

I once read that the other thing to consider is the weight of the 6bt will eventually break the front axles. It's too heavy and has too much torque. So if you're going that route an axle swap might also be in the plans.

 

[Volcano cruiser]

The 6BT has been done in 40, 55, 60, 80 and possibly other series cruisers. There's also build threads on pirate.
An example of a 4o series with cummins/auto conversion was a 45 at a local event (Cruiser Days) a few years back, post 7&8 of this thread: https://forum.ih8mud.com/trails-eve...tal-cruiser-landcruiser-days.html#post2439451 . The truck was built by Kodiak I think.
I don't think I've seen it done with an intercooler though. If I was doing this I would go with an early 12V 6BT myself .

Well that answers that. A 6BT in a 40. Got to head over to pirate to check out the write ups. Great information about the pre-98 12 valve version. As someone here said the choice really boils down to what is the application. Maybe the 4BT is the right way to go maybe the 6BT is .

What vehicles did the 6BT come in pre 1998?
The second question goes to the intercooler. Someone here mentioned that they´d only run one with a front mounted intercooler, I assume air to air was the thinking but has anyone run one using a liquid to air ?

 

[BC40]

I've given this some thought as well, the power output is tempting. If you use an ~89-90(?) dodge pickup as a donor, they were lower output non-intercooled. I would think it would be plenty of power for a cruiser, and possibly easier installation. An early 12V 6BT piggie I bookmarked years ago for inspiration:
Cummins 6BT in a '55... - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board
Downside to an early dodge <93 is either auto or 5spd getrag. From what I've read most of the tranny's suffered behind the 6BT's. The later intercooled trucks had nv4500's.
Really think I might put one in a 45, one day .

 

[KKell]

honestly, i know a guy who runs the 12 valve in a 2000 f-350 duelly,(his 6.0 ford pos crapped out) hes running it now with 486hp 1135 lbs torque. hes #11 in this link BD Power - Dyno Day
he maintains he would have around 580 if he had his methanol injection on. You can do anything to a cummins, i dont think water to air cooling would be a problem.

the 12 valve mostly came in 2500, 3500, ram pickups, but they also came in some dodge sprinter vans, search cummins on craigslist set the top value for 3000 and see what comes up. even its got 400,000km on it, its known as the million mile engine.

 

[Volcano cruiser]

I've given this some thought as well, the power output is tempting. If you use an ~89-90(?) dodge pickup as a donor, they were lower output non-intercooled. I would think it would be plenty of power for a cruiser, and possibly easier installation. An early 12V 6BT piggie I bookmarked years ago for inspiration:
Cummins 6BT in a '55... - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board
Downside to an early dodge <93 is either auto or 5spd getrag. From what I've read most of the tranny's suffered behind the 6BT's. The later intercooled trucks had nv4500's.
Really think I might put one in a 45, one day .

BTW, even if the pre 93 6BTs came with auto or getrag transmissions, is there any impediment to running a n4500 transmission behind it, assuming that you had the right adapter plate. input shaft etc.?

 

[Volcano cruiser]

I once read that the other thing to consider is the weight of the 6bt will eventually break the front axles. It's too heavy and has too much torque. So if you're going that route an axle swap might also be in the plans.

I wanted to circle back to this, a 6BT would break the axles. I haven't heard of that before but you learn something new everyday. How that work anyway? One of the first things that I did on my current rig was swap in Bobby Long's chromalloy inners up front. I guess I'm not seeing how that'd make the difference. One thing that I have found in this build, still not done , is it is better to replace systems, not parts. The new engine, bigger tires or whatever will eventually find the weak link in the drive train. New engine, more torque I expect first would hunt out a weakness in the tranny or xfer case. If everything there is tight, rebuilt or new, then on to the diffs, drive shafts axles...until it finds the weak link and breaks it. Just seems like the axles are pretty far down the chain. I guess the question is what axles are the Dodge trucks running that were under the 6BTs pre 98? How do those axles stand up to OEM 40 axles or the common after market replacements?

 

[sandec]

Have you thought about the cummins 3.3? It's lighter, 3 cylinder motor and you can buy it new for about $5000 directly from cummins. I've heard proffitt cruisers installs them in cruisers. Here's a link to their site that lists some pros and cons of the different cummins swaps.

Diesel Engine Conversions

 

[imabigbangkindaguy]

Have you thought about the cummins 3.3? It's lighter, 3 cylinder motor....



3 cylinder????

You sure about that......

 

[KKell]

Have you thought about the cummins 3.3? It's lighter, 3 cylinder motor....



3 cylinder????

You sure about that......

Yeah thats wrong. Its just a lighter 4 cylinder. But you can buy it from cummins for about 5000 brand spankin new. with no alternator, or wiring harness, or transmission. If you call cummins they can probably tell you what vehicles it in, you might be able to find one.

What are you wiling to pay anyways?

 

[Grease Cruiser]

Ahhh...the ol' 6BT in a 40 thread. I get asked this question on a weekly basis. Yes, it can be done and it has been done before. However, as others have mentioned, you will want a pre-92(93?) 12 valve non-intercooled version. The 93-early 98 would work but the intercooler won't fit. That intercooler is a monster and there is not going to be much room left over in the 40 compartment. I would not even think about a late 1998 6BT ISB computer controlled version.

My questions to you would be:

1) Why a 6BT? Are you thinking about it just because they are cheap and offer lots of power?

2) Do you really think you need this much power?

3) If you have this much power, are you really going to use it? The 6BT is a helluva tow rig engine. The 40 is not a tow rig.

4) What all is going to break when you have all this power? I have seen pictures of twisted frames from the torque of a 6BT. Granted...these engines were more than likely turned up....A LOT.

5) What exactly is your goal with this build? Wheeling? Overland use? Daily driver?


BC40 posted a link to a picture of a 45 with a 6BT in it. If you notice, this 45 is running Dana 60 axles which is standard on the 6BT Dodges...or even Dana 70 rears. Also, in Pillard's posts about his 6BT powered FJ55, he was always considering going with Dana 60's at a later date. He was using his pig as a daily driver and never really wheeled with it. He never really put his Cruiser to the test of the 6BT so we don't really know how well that Cruiser held up.

Yes, you can beefen the Cruiser axles up with chromoly front and rear shafts but, is this enough?


Don't get me wrong, a 6BT powered Cruiser would be awesome. I have even considered it myself in a FJ60 or an 80 series. However, I would want to do Dana 60's along with it. A 60 or an 80 with 6BT, NV4500, Dana 60's and 37's would be a spectacular multi-use truck. Just my opinion.

Most people consider the 4BT just fine for their needs. The 4BT is a very impressive engine and can be tweaked for a lot more performance. It also fits a helluva lot better than a 6BT would and you can run an intercooler if you want. One of the issues with the 4BT is that they are more desirable for smaller vehicles and because of this, they can be more expensive. Over the past few years, the price of used 4BT's have doubled if not tripled.

An alternative to the 4BT is the B3.3 which is another great Cummins engine. It provides decent power and it does not require a 4" + lift for it to fit. As someone else mentioned, you can get these engines for about $5000 new from Cummins. The 3.3 is also not as loud as the 4BT and the 6BT. It is much like a Toyota diesel and many of them are made in Japan by Komatsu Cummins. If you do not want a big rattly diesel in your 40, you might consider the B3.3

Lastly, there are the QSB and ISB versions of the B3.3 as well as the 4BT. These are computer controlled and the newer versions are even common rail injection. These put out more power than the all mechanical versions and work great in Cruisers but not as much as a 6BT. They are also much quieter and less rattly however, they are more complicated to install. Check out our website in the next week or so. We just installed a 3.9L QSB in an 80 and we are doing another one that will be finished in about 2 weeks.

Proffitt's Cruisers | Land Cruiser Restoration | Engine Conversion | Cruiser Suspensions


Anyways, hope that helps. Feel free to call the shop at 1-877-PROFFITT if you want any more info on Cummins diesels.

 

[Tapage]

I would like to see that 80 3.9QSB video ..

 

[Grease Cruiser]

I would like to see that 80 3.9QSB video ..

Patience Grasshopper, Patience.

We should have something in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Volcano cruiser]

Ahhh...the ol' 6BT in a 40 thread. I get asked this question on a weekly basis. Yes, it can be done and it has been done before. However, as others have mentioned, you will want a pre-92(93?) 12 valve non-intercooled version. The 93-early 98 would work but the intercooler won't fit. That intercooler is a monster and there is not going to be much room left over in the 40 compartment. I would not even think about a late 1998 6BT ISB computer controlled version.

My questions to you would be:

1) Why a 6BT? Are you thinking about it just because they are cheap and offer lots of power?

2) Do you really think you need this much power?

3) If you have this much power, are you really going to use it? The 6BT is a helluva tow rig engine. The 40 is not a tow rig.

4) What all is going to break when you have all this power? I have seen pictures of twisted frames from the torque of a 6BT. Granted...these engines were more than likely turned up....A LOT.

5) What exactly is your goal with this build? Wheeling? Overland use? Daily driver?


BC40 posted a link to a picture of a 45 with a 6BT in it. If you notice, this 45 is running Dana 60 axles which is standard on the 6BT Dodges...or even Dana 70 rears. Also, in Pillard's posts about his 6BT powered FJ55, he was always considering going with Dana 60's at a later date. He was using his pig as a daily driver and never really wheeled with it. He never really put his Cruiser to the test of the 6BT so we don't really know how well that Cruiser held up.

Yes, you can beefen the Cruiser axles up with chromoly front and rear shafts but, is this enough?


Don't get me wrong, a 6BT powered Cruiser would be awesome. I have even considered it myself in a FJ60 or an 80 series. However, I would want to do Dana 60's along with it. A 60 or an 80 with 6BT, NV4500, Dana 60's and 37's would be a spectacular multi-use truck. Just my opinion.

Most people consider the 4BT just fine for their needs. The 4BT is a very impressive engine and can be tweaked for a lot more performance. It also fits a helluva lot better than a 6BT would and you can run an intercooler if you want. One of the issues with the 4BT is that they are more desirable for smaller vehicles and because of this, they can be more expensive. Over the past few years, the price of used 4BT's have doubled if not tripled.

An alternative to the 4BT is the B3.3 which is another great Cummins engine. It provides decent power and it does not require a 4" + lift for it to fit. As someone else mentioned, you can get these engines for about $5000 new from Cummins. The 3.3 is also not as loud as the 4BT and the 6BT. It is much like a Toyota diesel and many of them are made in Japan by Komatsu Cummins. If you do not want a big rattly diesel in your 40, you might consider the B3.3

Lastly, there are the QSB and ISB versions of the B3.3 as well as the 4BT. These are computer controlled and the newer versions are even common rail injection. These put out more power than the all mechanical versions and work great in Cruisers but not as much as a 6BT. They are also much quieter and less rattly however, they are more complicated to install. Check out our website in the next week or so. We just installed a 3.9L QSB in an 80 and we are doing another one that will be finished in about 2 weeks.

Proffitt's Cruisers | Land Cruiser Restoration | Engine Conversion | Cruiser Suspensions


Anyways, hope that helps. Feel free to call the shop at 1-877-PROFFITT if you want any more info on Cummins diesels.

Great questions and love the site, great work on those rigs. Me I´m not a disciple of the 6BT. I love the Toyota Diesels but even as I get ready to have my current rig exported up, I worry about getting it serviced here. Few folks here know the 1HZ engine, though it has been great to drive and wheel. This got me thinking about Cummins.

In terms of vehicle application Any 4x4 that I own will have to have the same capabilities: streetable as a DD (on the interstate mostly) weekend wheeler, annual overland expeditioner and very occasional/ infrequent only nothing larger tow rig, light to moderate utility trailers.

In thinking about that application, the 3.3 at 85 hp and the 3.9 at 105 seemed underpowered for interstate highway cruising, though fine for the other aspects of the rig´s use. That is how I ended up at the 6BT. That said your observations about the engine´s untested application in a wheeled cruiser is well taken. Additionally, I understand that the 4BT can be tweaked in a variety of ways to gain power. I will be looking forward to the new builds that you mentioned with newer, quieter more powerful versions of the 3.9l 4BT. I will also be very curious about any common rail versions of the 4BT as they seem like they would be quieter, more efficient and get better miles per gallon. Thanks again and looking forward to the videos of your builds.