Tapage
Club 4X4 Panamá
Mike S said:
260 HP count .. ! and agree, maybe the best overall idea is 4BT .. simple as is.
Cummins 6BT (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter GLTHFJ60
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260 HP count .. ! and agree, maybe the best overall idea is 4BT .. simple as is.
- Thread starter
- #22
How much power does the 6BT put out in the later model trucks?
I'm still thinking that a 6 cylinder would be nicer than a four cylinder.
I'm still thinking that a 6 cylinder would be nicer than a four cylinder.
> sae #3 in Dodges?
Squeezer good question, I have always assumed that Dodge Cummins was SAE #3 versus the Dodge gas engines which I believe are their own pattern. I did some searching on Pirate and here is what I came up with. I have a photo somewhere of a Dodge Cummins and it sure looks like SAE #3 as well, big and round.... Scroll about 1/2 way down this page and it talks about it. Just above the photo of the Cummins NV5600 which is supposedly sae #3 as well???
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=306200&page=2&pp=25&highlight=sae#3
Squeezer good question, I have always assumed that Dodge Cummins was SAE #3 versus the Dodge gas engines which I believe are their own pattern. I did some searching on Pirate and here is what I came up with. I have a photo somewhere of a Dodge Cummins and it sure looks like SAE #3 as well, big and round.... Scroll about 1/2 way down this page and it talks about it. Just above the photo of the Cummins NV5600 which is supposedly sae #3 as well???
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=306200&page=2&pp=25&highlight=sae#3
PabloCruise
SILVER Star
GLTHFJ60 said:I wanted to know if anyone has done the 6BT conversion. I have posted on other threads about wanting to pop a 1HDT into my rig, but the lack of parts as well as the price of parts has got me reconsidering....
The way I see it, the Cummins has more power, it is relatively cheaper and the parts would be much less expensive, not to mention incomprehensively easier to find.
People have eluded to this conversion, but I know nothing about doing it.
-What transmission to get
-What TC to get
-Available space in the engine bay
-Breaking Axles or Driveshafts
Anyone with knowledge on this, please help.
Oh, by the way, I wanted to buy a five speed for my 2F that would work with the engine that I want to swap in. Is there a transmission in existance that is for a 6BT that will mount up to a 2F?
Thanks guys!
Here is the FJ-55/6BT build on Pirate: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=309331&page=1&pp=25
- Thread starter
- #25
Thank you for the links. They helped out alot!!
Therefore, it is possible and with not too much mods in the form of the frame or body, a 6BT will go in. That's the way that I will go then.
From what I have been reading, the NV5600 is a better tranny for that engine. Is that right?
SAE 3 looks like the standard for Dodge 6BTs. AA can cover that, right?
What are some numbers for the later model 6BTs?
Therefore, it is possible and with not too much mods in the form of the frame or body, a 6BT will go in. That's the way that I will go then.
From what I have been reading, the NV5600 is a better tranny for that engine. Is that right?
SAE 3 looks like the standard for Dodge 6BTs. AA can cover that, right?
What are some numbers for the later model 6BTs?
Tapage
Club 4X4 Panamá
GLTHFJ60 said:
the frame is ok, can handle the 6BT, but did you thing in weight .. ? ( on suspension department )
GLTHFJ60 said:
yesss is ok, but NV4500 is good too
- Thread starter
- #27
Yes, I understand that the NV4500 is a good tranny, but will it handle the torque over the long run? I don't want to install the thing and then have to tear it out again because I stripped a gear due to the torque.
I think the NV5600 came stock with the 6BT. Can anyone confirm this?
I think the NV5600 came stock with the 6BT. Can anyone confirm this?
Yes it did. But so did the NV4500.
so, it is your choice, 5 speed or 6 speed
BTW, whoever said that the cruiser frame could not take the torque needs to be taken out and shot
I say do the 6BT, more power is never a bad theng..
BTW, get some new axles too.
so, it is your choice, 5 speed or 6 speed
BTW, whoever said that the cruiser frame could not take the torque needs to be taken out and shot
I say do the 6BT, more power is never a bad theng..
BTW, get some new axles too.
please just double check that the 6BT is sae #3 though before you buy anything. NV4500 is one of the few trannies that has held up behind the 6BT so yes its a good tranny. I run one behind my 4BT and I love it... There is a OEM Dodge Cummins and AA bellhousing for NV4500 to Cummins 6BT. We have a yahoogroup (I believe in my sig) of people swapping 4BT's to trucks mostly but lots of good 6BT info too.. You mgiht want to check it out. Some people on the list have found some good sources for these bellhousings and such... NV5600 replaced the 5 speed and is a 6 speed, longer, even heavier. I can't remember when the switch was. I think a NV5600 would be cool but I like my 5 speed as well. Best, Andre
- Thread starter
- #30
I bet that it is safe to assume that the 5600 is quite a bit more expensive than the 4500. I think that I will go with the 4500 due to the cost. That and I think that it would be too wierd to have a six-speed in a LC. Seems too modern. Besides, five speeds will be plenty.
They are relatively the same in terms of durability, right?
They are relatively the same in terms of durability, right?
- Thread starter
- #31
I've been browsing around to find a NV4500 and I found one that I liked. It is on ebay and going for $700. I don't know if I can buy it, but for refrences at least, would it work with the 2F? It has a 10 spline input and I am not sure what the 4 speed has stock.
I think that it is safe to assume that a clutch change would be necessary, so what are my options in terms of clutches that will mate the input shaft of the NV4500 and the 2F?
Tranny
I think that it is safe to assume that a clutch change would be necessary, so what are my options in terms of clutches that will mate the input shaft of the NV4500 and the 2F?
Tranny
polarweasel
Where's mah cruzah?
If you really want to attach that NV4500 to a 2F (and to your stock t-case, I assume), call Advance Adapters. They can tell you exactly what you'll need.
Really, though, why not save the (huge amount of) money that adapting will cost you, and just do the whole diesel conversion at once?
Really, though, why not save the (huge amount of) money that adapting will cost you, and just do the whole diesel conversion at once?
I second that. Call Advance Adapters.
Get their NV400 manual too.
You're looking at close to a $1,000 in just adapters.
Plus the cost of a bell housing and clutch.
You may have to reposition engine or move back transfer case which also means lengthening/shortening driveshafts.
Good deal on the tranny though if it is guaranteed to work good.
Get their NV400 manual too.
You're looking at close to a $1,000 in just adapters.
Plus the cost of a bell housing and clutch.
You may have to reposition engine or move back transfer case which also means lengthening/shortening driveshafts.
Good deal on the tranny though if it is guaranteed to work good.
- Thread starter
- #34
Damn. $1100 just for adapting plates? That's more than the transmission costs. I think that I might buy the tranny and store it in a box of parts for the conversion. $1100 is too much for adapter plates, no matter how good they are.
The engine that I've been looking at costs $4000, I think that I'll save the money for that beast.
Polarweasel, you were definately right on this one.
The engine that I've been looking at costs $4000, I think that I'll save the money for that beast.
Polarweasel, you were definately right on this one.
Not to be rude, because I know you've been asking a lot of questions. But do you know what you are getting into cost wise? Figure out what you want (Cummins, NV4500, what t-case?) and sit down get prices for each component and add it up, plus labor if you need it. For instance, if you go with the stock t-case, the adapter for tranny to t-case is nearly $600. AA definetely has most of the answers for you. I second contacting them to get the low down on NV4500 installation.
- Thread starter
- #36
Yeah, I have some estimates on the cost for this conversion. I don't like it, but it is what I will be dealing with over the next year or so, hopefully less.
Cummins 6BT from later model Dodge; $4500
NV4500 used tranny; $800
Centerforce Clutch; guess $1000
Stock T-Case
Adapter; $700
Axles; $1200
Equals $7,700
*Not Including fuel system*
Guessing Around $10,000 for entire conversion, realistically.
I know that it's a big project, but I love that engine and transmission. My uncle has the 6BT and 5-speed in his '98 Ram, and it kicks ass!! In the LC, it will be a monster!!!!!!!
Cummins 6BT from later model Dodge; $4500
NV4500 used tranny; $800
Centerforce Clutch; guess $1000
Stock T-Case
Adapter; $700
Axles; $1200
Equals $7,700
*Not Including fuel system*
Guessing Around $10,000 for entire conversion, realistically.
I know that it's a big project, but I love that engine and transmission. My uncle has the 6BT and 5-speed in his '98 Ram, and it kicks ass!! In the LC, it will be a monster!!!!!!!
I don't think I would buy the tranny just yet until you know what bell housing you'll use. Dodge version of the NV4500 has a 1" longer input shaft than Chevy versions.
If you get a Dodge version and end up using a bell housing with a depth similar to a Chevy, you'll end up having to purchace a $300 1" spacer from AA later. Or changing input shafts in the tranny. Then again maybe the Dodge version will work out best for you. You just don't know until you do some research., or have an engine, clutch & bell housing in front of you to measure.
Common sense would make you think Dodge engine, Dodge bell housing & clutch, Dodge tranny, no problem. But you better check to make sure.
Also make if AA makes an adapter to mount a slave cyl for the bell housing you are considering using, or there is a place to even mount one. Alot of these vehicles had internal slave cylinders.
Some NV4500 years shift smoother & better than earlier other years
Reserch, research, Research. Haste makes waste on these type of conversions
If you get a Dodge version and end up using a bell housing with a depth similar to a Chevy, you'll end up having to purchace a $300 1" spacer from AA later. Or changing input shafts in the tranny. Then again maybe the Dodge version will work out best for you. You just don't know until you do some research., or have an engine, clutch & bell housing in front of you to measure.
Common sense would make you think Dodge engine, Dodge bell housing & clutch, Dodge tranny, no problem. But you better check to make sure.
Also make if AA makes an adapter to mount a slave cyl for the bell housing you are considering using, or there is a place to even mount one. Alot of these vehicles had internal slave cylinders.
Some NV4500 years shift smoother & better than earlier other years
Reserch, research, Research. Haste makes waste on these type of conversions
Since we are talking trannies and such here's an email from a knowledgable guy on the Yahoo 4BT list about the NV4500. I think his arguments about the 4500 being old iron actually benefit us.
-----
Just a short note to attempt to answer your inquiries about a 4BT. The most common adapter on the 4BT seems to be a GM plate on the vans. The manuals were more commons on the fords. The cummins / ford manual flywheel is useable with the gm adapter plate.
The GM NV4500 will directly bolt up to the Cummins / GM adapter plate. The GM gas / diesel are the same transmissions. The trannys dual / friction are about 1/2 the cost of a dodge clutch. Since the oem clutch works in cummins engineering manual....I would not waste the money on a dodge set up.
GM NV4500 uses a 32 output spline....which will go to most NP transfercases. Advance adapters makes kits which will retro most NV's to unusual tcases. its are $500 - 1000 depending on what you need.
The old Dodge gas unit uses a 23 output spline that was very sought after because it would fit Dana 300 cases direct bolt up. In there wisdom...they went to a 29 output shaft that destroyed the interchangeability.
Dodge Diesel...ADvance Adapters advised people to try to stay away simply due to the shaft costs. The input & output shafts were not easily adaptable. read $$$$$ to change over. This tranny uses a $500 - 600 clutch. IT is not really needed for the smaller 4 cylinder motor.
NOt sure where you are....found a burnt gm diesel / NV4500 donor truck coming to New England sometime this month. Only know it's a 5 speed....the rest is unknown.
My personal feeling on a NV4500 is that they are primitive iron. A low hole gear, 3 Wide split gears & an overdrive are not great compinations on a motor that revs to 2500. Would opt for a NV5600 or GM S6-650 6 speed tranny. Both have a low hole and 4 close ratio gears and an overdrive.
Personally, I went with the close ratio Ford ZF superduty transmission due to the close pattern & high first gear. The S5-42 is more friendly to me pulling a trailer on the tar, with the closer pattern. The ZF is the most expensive family of transmissions, but I don't really care. They make good transmissions for expensive German cars & industrial equiptment.
Bolt patterns have changed in the last 5 - 6 years with the bell housing patterns being standardized. The older GM & newer GM do not share the same pattern.
The new GM & Dodge bellhousing patterns are the same.
The most popular set up accoding to AA is the Older GAS Dodge set up with the 1 1/8" inputspline& 23 output splines. This was the easiest to adapt. It could also be set up to run with a chevy. The best Dodge only feature was that reverse was syncro'd.
Note to the wise....the OEM cummins / van conversion parts & dodge diesel truck parts are different. The OEM cummins parts are about twice as thick as the dodge stuff.
There is a bias against the OEM stuff...it cost lost more to replace. Regardless of the BS about OEM vs Dodge, the corporations have millions of miles on there conversion vans all running very stock clutches ect on the vans.
-----
Just a short note to attempt to answer your inquiries about a 4BT. The most common adapter on the 4BT seems to be a GM plate on the vans. The manuals were more commons on the fords. The cummins / ford manual flywheel is useable with the gm adapter plate.
The GM NV4500 will directly bolt up to the Cummins / GM adapter plate. The GM gas / diesel are the same transmissions. The trannys dual / friction are about 1/2 the cost of a dodge clutch. Since the oem clutch works in cummins engineering manual....I would not waste the money on a dodge set up.
GM NV4500 uses a 32 output spline....which will go to most NP transfercases. Advance adapters makes kits which will retro most NV's to unusual tcases. its are $500 - 1000 depending on what you need.
The old Dodge gas unit uses a 23 output spline that was very sought after because it would fit Dana 300 cases direct bolt up. In there wisdom...they went to a 29 output shaft that destroyed the interchangeability.
Dodge Diesel...ADvance Adapters advised people to try to stay away simply due to the shaft costs. The input & output shafts were not easily adaptable. read $$$$$ to change over. This tranny uses a $500 - 600 clutch. IT is not really needed for the smaller 4 cylinder motor.
NOt sure where you are....found a burnt gm diesel / NV4500 donor truck coming to New England sometime this month. Only know it's a 5 speed....the rest is unknown.
My personal feeling on a NV4500 is that they are primitive iron. A low hole gear, 3 Wide split gears & an overdrive are not great compinations on a motor that revs to 2500. Would opt for a NV5600 or GM S6-650 6 speed tranny. Both have a low hole and 4 close ratio gears and an overdrive.
Personally, I went with the close ratio Ford ZF superduty transmission due to the close pattern & high first gear. The S5-42 is more friendly to me pulling a trailer on the tar, with the closer pattern. The ZF is the most expensive family of transmissions, but I don't really care. They make good transmissions for expensive German cars & industrial equiptment.
Bolt patterns have changed in the last 5 - 6 years with the bell housing patterns being standardized. The older GM & newer GM do not share the same pattern.
The new GM & Dodge bellhousing patterns are the same.
The most popular set up accoding to AA is the Older GAS Dodge set up with the 1 1/8" inputspline& 23 output splines. This was the easiest to adapt. It could also be set up to run with a chevy. The best Dodge only feature was that reverse was syncro'd.
Note to the wise....the OEM cummins / van conversion parts & dodge diesel truck parts are different. The OEM cummins parts are about twice as thick as the dodge stuff.
There is a bias against the OEM stuff...it cost lost more to replace. Regardless of the BS about OEM vs Dodge, the corporations have millions of miles on there conversion vans all running very stock clutches ect on the vans.
- Thread starter
- #39
From what I read, here is what I have gathered;
The GM NV4500 with the 32 output spline will bolt directly to the cummins engine.
The Old Dodge NV4500 will bolt up to the Cummins engine, but with the advantage of being able to bolt directly to the Dana 300 transfer case, VERY DESIREABLE.
Looks like the dodge setup with the $250 Dana 300 is the winner in my opinion. Any thoughts?
The GM NV4500 with the 32 output spline will bolt directly to the cummins engine.
The Old Dodge NV4500 will bolt up to the Cummins engine, but with the advantage of being able to bolt directly to the Dana 300 transfer case, VERY DESIREABLE.
Looks like the dodge setup with the $250 Dana 300 is the winner in my opinion. Any thoughts?
Unfortunately the Dana 300 is a centered t-case, so you'd be best with a centered rear diff = new rear axle. There "might" be a clocking ring for the NV4500 - D300 that would allow you the advantage of rotating the t/c to a ps offset. But that would negate the cheapness factor.
I would personally go with a GM NV4500 because the availability is there and the cost of a clutch for it is not out of this world, and it will bolt up with the GM adapter plate - which would be on the motor if it came with a GM tranny (like a t350 or 400 or 4L series).
I would personally go with a GM NV4500 because the availability is there and the cost of a clutch for it is not out of this world, and it will bolt up with the GM adapter plate - which would be on the motor if it came with a GM tranny (like a t350 or 400 or 4L series).
