Cheapest specifically designed intercooler for 80 series. (1 Viewer)

[Dougal]

Wow!

Lots of new info here!.

I finally have my 4wdbits intercooler for the 1HD-T (and my 3" exhaust also, but that's another history).

I was definetly going to get the Cross Country 4x4 one, but I got tired of waiting for them and a friend got a very good deal to bring some 4wdbits ones, so I got the 4wdbits.

My main concern is the elbow and the rear position of the 1HD-T version. I'm veeery interested on the discusion going on here about the right location for the scoop. (I know I can not choose the location, but if the scoop won't be a good improvement in this intercooler's particular case, I might try some other alternatives).


In the spanish forums there are several opinions about how to do with this intercooler:

1) Just install it and leave without scoop. Warren says there is an improvement just by installing it, I wonder how much. Mudstorm, have you measured the EGT drop with intercooler but without scoop?

2) Install it, make no scoop, but raise the rear of the bonnet and remove the rubber gasket in the rear. There is a guy in the forum that bought one of these and is also a mechanic I trust that is convinced that this would improve under bonnet airflow greatly and would be as effective as a scoop. I can't see it being so effective, but as I said, this is a very knowledge guy. He also told me that this would be effective even at low speeds thanks to the engine fan that would move enough air to cool the intercooler as well.

3) Install intercooler with no scoop but with a fan, to force underbonnet airflow to circulate through the fins of the intercooler.

4) Install intercooler and scoop.

5) Install intercooler, scoop and fan.

6) Make an underbonnet air circuit to drive the ram air from the front to the intercooler, just like the Toyota Land Cruiser 120's or the Peugeot I post pictures of previously in this thread. This would be a complicated option, but might be very effective.


What do you guys think of these options? Any that you think is a particulary good idea?


Tapage, when you said you like it and it's your way to go, do you mean the 4wdbits one or the cross country one?

Install the intercooler with a scoop, install a fan later on if you need it.
This is what the manufacturers do and they've spent a lot of time testing to show it works. Not with wool on the bonnet either.

Propping up the back of the bonnet is a really bad thing to do. It will pull engine fumes into your cabin intakes but do little for cooling airflow.
Even if you do get air moving in the right direction, you'd be pulling hot air off the engine and radiator through your intercooler. This is not smart.

 

[Tapage]

The Cross Country one .. actually what I have in my mind it's get a 1HZ or 1HD-T crosover pipe and then all my problems will be solved ..

And about your question .. IMOP a good scoop it's mandatory, in my case I will add a cheap electric fan under it ..

 

[syche]

Let's see.
Subaru style their STi scoops to look more aggressive because that's what the owners want.
The Isuzu trooper scoop is bad why? Because it only exits through one side underneath?

Why must the hilux scoop be so efficient?

Here's an ARE scoop on a landcruiser, exactly where you think they are no good.

Again, You are right on, look where is the inlet of the scoop, it is about half the length of the hood.

Now from Are, go ont heir website, patrol upgrade, you will see. Sure if they had to do a new scoop for the 80, they would do it quite different.

The new hilux scoop is very good has the hood has a nice angle, the scoop is in the right place so it is faced directly to a good flow. The scoop opening is about 30mm high, compromise between flow and look.

STI did not do the big scoop only for the look. They needed more cooling and that was the way to go.

 

[syche]

The fan is not always the best way to go!.

Why you wills ay, well, when the car is stoped, sure there is no flow at all, so, basiquely no cooling.

But in the same time, when you are at so low speed, you are in 1fst gear, long or low or 2nd low.

The engine torque is so big, you won't use boost with this gears on. teh place where you would have ..a bad situation is soft sand, like soft river bed in africa, long mauritanian oued and etc.

But there the 80 is a king, even factory setup, and you will cruise 30 to 50km/h on this surface. and 30 to 50km/h, with a good and well made scoop, youw ill cool down no doubt.

Now in short and broken tunisian dunes...you will drive in 1frst or second long and use low gear only to pull yourself out when made a mistake. You will be reving 800 to max 2000 RPM. you will not use boost, ont he torque, it will take everything, so not much to cool.

In Lybian Dunes, the monsters, there you will use the max of your boost to speedup and keep it up to the top, then flip en go down with a light rev just to keep the car inline and do not rollover.
But your global speed will be suffisant to flow air through the scoop.

That is experience from my various trips this last 10 years with turbo diesel engines, toy or..others.

BUT:whoops:, ou highways, your boost is constant and high, so you need efficient cooling, a lot of it. And there a fan..is an obstacle to air flow, unless you have one that can simulate the airflow over 100km/h over the complete IC core......

get to patrol forums they made great drawings and a lot of test.

i do not say a fan is bad, i say the fan you chose and the way you place it, can have good or bad impact, and also it depend what you will do with your truck.

An other idea hit me when i was getting my car cleaned. In africa, they are very good for improvisation, we have vaccum cleaner, they have...... A pipe, a hole, and...the compressor they made a vacum cleaner extremelly powerful.

Why not trying to make somethign like that adapted to our use. I will work on it soon, i have no ccalculation capacity for it, so i will do by experiement., learnin g by doing.


The idea would be to make an air flow chanel right after the ic core, make it as smooth as possible, and bring it into a pipe or something close to it.
About 20cm before the end of the pipe, a smaller pipe is inserted, this smaller pipe is rooted from the engine fan and with a large connical intake right behind the fan.

the engine fan, pressurise air in the the cone, the air is fluched through the small pipe in the big pipe, creating a vacum effect. (that part is the one to test, to ensure a big enough vaccum).
The vaccum will suck the air through the IC core and then creat the flow even care stoped.

It is an idea to work on

Now when the car speed increase, and the flow of our piping is not enough as mostlikely the piping section surface would be lower than the Flow surface on the IC core, a flap need to be open to let the flow circulate freely. Could be easylly done with a soft spring and a side flap.

 

[Cañonero]

Amazing project!!.

I'd need to see some picture or so to completely understand it, but it's really interesting. Let us know how it develops.

 

[syche]

Sure i will, but it will take some time, i am 90% of the year 15 000km from my car

The biggest problem will be to get a good system to catch engine fan air flow

 

[Dougal]

Again, You are right on, look where is the inlet of the scoop, it is about half the length of the hood.

It's in the back half of the bonnet, the point where you keep saying it will do little.

The new hilux scoop is very good has the hood has a nice angle, the scoop is in the right place so it is faced directly to a good flow. The scoop opening is about 30mm high, compromise between flow and look.

STI did not do the big scoop only for the look. They needed more cooling and that was the way to go.

The hilux scoop is tiny compared to the WRX STI scoops, yet the hilux due to more boost actually requires more cooling.
The larger STI scoops are clearly for show, they leave them on the WRC cars when they are fitted with front mount intercoolers.

A fan underneath a top-mount intercooler will not restrict the flow at open road speeds unless it is seriously undersized.
A vacuum cleaner type will be little use though. The ducting you plan to make will cause more flow restriction and cooling loss than any of the ideas you are dismissing.
Besides, it takes several kilowatts of power to drive a vacuum cleaner.

Basically, you're making the subject of intercooler scoops a whole lot more difficult than it is. You are dismissing proven designs in favour of ones that don't work based on a fatally flawed experiment.

 

[syche]

Again, you miss a lot of points.

The most impotant on a scoop is not it's global location, but where is the inlet of it.

A fan will slow down the flow through a cooler highways, unless your highways are limited below 70km/h, not the case for us in Eu, or when we drive to africa, we have long straight lines where...we floor it and cheap diesel in this area doesn't make you slow down.

For the scoop, just make what you want with your ideas, i make mine and know why i do like this and i am not the only one going that way, some professional did , does and will do it.

Juste find me a place in desert where a factory HDJ80 is not able to go, all our.."upgrades" are just for our pleasure. I have been like driving on country road to place with an all factory 350 000km hdj80 12v where all upgraded kdj90 or 120 and hdj100 from our group, upgraded with all the good stuff you can buy, were having hard time and got stucked all over.

The 80 is a king in this area, with or without intercooler or scoop

 

[Dougal]

Again, you miss a lot of points.

Actually I don't miss any points, I'm showing that air scoops do not work the way you think they do. Which is why your ideas about the best placement are not correct.

The most impotant on a scoop is not it's global location, but where is the inlet of it.

Yes and the inlet only needs to be higher pressure than the outlet.
Anywhere on the grille, bonnet or windscreen provides this.

Show me a fan that restricts cooling at highway speeds?

 

[syche]

Just 2 comment,

When one guy mentionned about lifting the bonnet, you said the air will go out at the back of it so no cooling effect on the IC as it is the hot air from engine bay that will flow over the cooler and find it's way out via the rear or the lifted bonnet.
Well that is about to be right..but if there was low pressure as you mentionned, under the hood, and high pressure over it, i can't explain the physical effect, how low pressure air can rush to to high pressure area.. With your satus, the air over the bonnet would force it's way inside the engine bay via the rear of the lifted hood.

try to get in touch with the guy who tried the fan on the cooler, when they turn it off, they have lower temps on highways, all of them. But maybe it is just a patrol thing

I have been dealing with cooling on planes for some time, nothing replace experiments, not even computers

 

[Dougal]

Just 2 comment,

When one guy mentionned about lifting the bonnet, you said the air will go out at the back of it so no cooling effect on the IC as it is the hot air from engine bay that will flow over the cooler and find it's way out via the rear or the lifted bonnet.
Well that is about to be right..but if there was low pressure as you mentionned, under the hood, and high pressure over it, i can't explain the physical effect, how low pressure air can rush to to high pressure area.. With your satus, the air over the bonnet would force it's way inside the engine bay via the rear of the lifted hood.

try to get in touch with the guy who tried the fan on the cooler, when they turn it off, they have lower temps on highways, all of them. But maybe it is just a patrol thing

I have been dealing with cooling on planes for some time, nothing replace experiments, not even computers

No I didn't say the air will go out the back.
I said even if you do manage to get air to flow out the back, you would be pulling hot air through the intercooler.

Whether you get airflow in that direction in motion or not, you will get engine bay fumes into the cabin air intake. This will happen mostly when stationary.

You should scroll up and read it again.

 

[syche]

Well....scrolled up and..

This is what the manufacturers do and they've spent a lot of time testing to show it works. Not with wool on the bonnet either.

Propping up the back of the bonnet is a really bad thing to do. It will pull engine fumes into your cabin intakes but do little for cooling airflow.
Even if you do get air moving in the right direction, you'd be pulling hot air off the engine and radiator through your intercooler. This is not smart.



One time you say, car designer put scoop "bigger" just for the look, then, car manufacturer have been working a lot on them, you are saying black and white all the time.

This will be my last reply to this coments, and i hope we can keep going forward with constructive thread.

everyone

 

[Dougal]

One time you say, car designer put scoop "bigger" just for the look, then, car manufacturer have been working a lot on them, you are saying black and white all the time.

I said subaru made the STI scoop bigger than the normal WRX for cosmetic reasons. I stand by that. It's the same reason they have a more aggressive body-kit. People have no problem getting STI power without the big scoop.


Here is an example to show how different airflow and pressure difference are.
If we present a flat plate face on to an airflow, we have only airflow around the sides of the plate. The centre of the face exposed to the air stream has no flow across it.
The centre of the back side of the plate also has no flow across it. Any wool strips or similar would be buffeted around a little, but that's all.

Yet if we cut a hole through the centre of this plate, we would get a great amount of flow through it. This flow is because of the pressure difference from one side of the plate to the other. It's a good example of why external airflow direction means nothing when placing vents, pressure difference is all that matters.

 

[Cañonero]

I copy and paste what Warren (the designer of the 4wdbits intercooler) told me when I told him about my concerns about the location of the scoop not being a right one.


"The air to air intercooler works reasonable well without a bonnet scoop because of the turbulence under the bonnet caused by the fan and the vehicle moving forwards, but a scoop would increase it's efficiency"

"The 12 and 24 valve intercooler cores are in similar positions, the 12 valve is back a little. Aerodynamically the centre of the bonnet from the front to the rear and up the centre of the windscreen is a high pressure zone with continuous non turbulent air flow (this can be easily shown using tufts of wool taped to the bonnet), a good position for a bonnet scoop."

 

[Cañonero]

Well I installed the intercooler without the scoop, tried for a couple of days and didn't notice any difference (didn't have a chance to drive it a open road, just in the mountanious roads from where I live.

Then installed the Nissan Patrol Scoop (love how it looks painted in black) and didn't notice anything either in bendy roads, but then I drove it in the highway and really noticed an improvement in steep hills, it holds up better.

It's a bit the same as when I installed the 3" exhaust, only notice a real improvement after a 70-80 km/h and speciall in hills. I haven't played with the pump or turbo yet, so that will make a difference, although my pump was already tweaked.

I hadn't tried before, but I took a chance to see the max speed I could get in a flat highway with the intercooler and the 3" exhaust, and I could get to 170 km/h measured in the GPS. I don't think I had been able to reach that before.

The seal of the Patrol scoop is great for this intercooler, almost the exact size, it looks stock. It seals perfectly, the only downside is that I lose about 10% of the core size in the rear, but I will solve it later. I've been thinking about cutting the seal, but it's a pity as it looks perfectly this way, so I may make some plate in the rear of the intercooler to raise the seal a bit there.

 

[Tapage]

really really good .. you should increase your fuel and boost and see how it performs ..

before that you should take few measurements in aceleration and speed at certain road ( silly climb . ? ) to see how it performs ..

 

[Cañonero]

Thank you Tapage.

I will do as soon as I get the Turbo and egt gauges installed.

I'm very tempted to install this: KIT LDA POUR TOYOTA HDJ 80 12 et 24 v - NEUF + 30 ch en venta en eBay.es (finaliza el 07-ene-10 13:13:04 H.Esp)

A friend of mine had his pump tweaked (badly I believe), he had noticed a performance improvement, but also lots of black smoke and increased consumption. Then he took the car to a diesel specialist, set the pump to stock specifications and installed this boost compensator and turbo spacers.

Now he gets more power and less smoke, better fuel consumption. Just by doing that, no intercooler or anything.

I'm just a bit worried about this cause a guy in a australian forum told me it could wear the bore it slides in in the pump body and advised to tune it manually, but I can't find a decent diesel specialist that want to do anything else than set it back to stock specifications.

 

[Tapage]

turbo spacers ... ?

your 1HD-T should come with boost comp .. so you only need to adjust it to match your new fuel setting and boost level ..

 

[Cañonero]

Yes, I mean washers.

It's hard to translate:

el cuerpo de la valvula va cojido con dos tornillos...los sueltas,intercalas dos arandelas paras separar por la parte de atras y ya esta. Utiliza un medidor de presión de turbo para saber cuanto aumenta la presión y en base a eso pones o quitas arandelas según la presión que quieras obtener.

I know here most of you use boost controllers. I've heard of people having issues with them, so I maybe use this washers method.


Tapage, do you think the same results can be achieved with this modifications?: Welcome to Land Cruiser Owners On Line as with the LDA kit?

 

[Tapage]

You mean washer for the wastegate to increase the boost .. ? I get it ..

and yes .. actually I have absolutely no issues with my boost controller . pretty happy with it, it works, works well and simple ..