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"A well regulated millitia, being nesessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall Not be infringed".


That would be a "remembered" quote of the second ammendment to the US Constitution.

The basic reasoning behind a defensive weapon is just that, defense. Handguns are basicly defensive weapons. It is a bit akward to swing a rifle or shotgun inside a motor vehicle when a maggot is trying to fawk with you..........


D-
 
In Ga, a car is considered an extention of your home and can be defended without retreat. You do not have to have a CCW permit to carry a loaded gun in your vehicle as a resident of the state. To answer the question on having to use my firearm in my vehicle, no I have not had to fire it at a person. I have used the OC/ pepper sparay to run off a potential car jacker. Ido have 2 friends, one a 91 LC owner, that have had to pull their firearm to defend their lives/ the lives of family members. Fortuneately they did not have to fire them. They used them to hold the people until the police arrived. I try to be prepared for whatever happens, I pray I never have to use the weapon, but there is a big difference in not wanting to do something and not being willing.
 
fllintknapper

semlin said:
ok, so this is one area where Canadians and Americans are definitely a little different. Rifles are one thing, but can you help me understand why you want/need a handgun in your centre console? Don't assume I am anti right to bear arms or criticizing the idea of CCW or anything but I have never even seen a handgun in the possession of a private citizen other than a uniformed security guard so this thread is like Mars to me. Have any of you actually used your hand guns for any practical purpose even as a deterrent in a bad situation? Is this a hobby or something you do just to ensure the right exists? anyway, don't get defensive, I'm just curious...

Well, since I started this thread....I feel obligated to answer a few of your questions. My personal safety and that of my family is certainly not a hobby. I don't "Carry" everywhere I go but, there are times when it makes good sense to do so. You may or may not find anyone here that has had to use their weapon to protect themselves. A little search (NRA & other sites) will quickly turn up thousands of incidents where this was the case.

Please keep in mind that one is not justified in using a firearm (handgun or rifle) as a deterent to a bad situation unless you define "bad situation" as one that involves deadly force or the threat of deadly force being perpetrated upon you. In other word's there must be clear and present danger.

I personally do not "carry" a handgun to ensure my right to do so. I do however vote for certain politicians and support certain groups for that reason.

Americans in the majority of states have access to concealed carry priveliges IF all of the attendant requirements are met. For the most part ...we enjoy a govenment that still trusts it's law abiding citizens. Your statement that rifles are one thing but handguns another... begs the question: Do you think there is something inherently evil or bad about one but not the other. Just curious, and I hope you don't get flamed here for asking a sincere question.

P.S. If you ever make it to Texas I would be pleased to take you out to the range for an afternoon of shooting. I am an NRA certified instructor and an IDPA safety officer with 35 years of shooting experience, so it will be safe and I'll wager you will enjoy yourself.
 
Well said,

As an NRA Life Member I agree with the above statement. I am also an NRA high-power rife competitor with Sharp-shooter credentials.

I think it important to note that one of the main reasons this nation came into existance is the fact that the population was armed........
 
dang right, and why folks here are not *subjects* of a faraway queen...

(no flaming intended, just a friendly reminder)

E
 
As a matter of principle, I refrain from participating in, or commenting on, political or religous topics as both are best left at the door.

that being said, I staunchly DEFEND the RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. I will go on public record in this media to state that my firearms will be pried "From my cold, dead, hands" just as my president (Charleston Heston) Stated........
 
The older I get, the more I begin to realize that evil strikes anywhere and everywhere in this strange world. People go to McDonald's and a guy shows up with weaponry in an attempt to best the kill figures for "best mass murderer". You go to the office and a disgruntled employee shows up with guns to kill the boss and everyone who looked askance at him. It goes on and on.

I have a CCW and carry often and in places other people don't consider dangerous at all. I also have a family now and would not hesitate to use deadly force to defend them - happily my government agrees with that position.

Only one time have I used a weapon to protect myself and I did not have to fire. A buddy and I were hiking in a remote area of California when we came upon a clearing full of drunk lowlifes. One of them holding a rifle loosely asked us what we had in our backpacks. "A lot of gear and a couple of these" was my reply as I lifted my jacket to show a Berretta with walnut stocks in a waist paddle. The crowd had been getting to their feet and walking our way until that moment, when they all choose to sit back down. All conversation ceased and we walked off on our merry way, convinced we'd have been stripped of a few thousand bucks worth of gear.

To directly answer the question about handguns, they are portable and concealable so that you can deal with people on a normal level and they never know the person asking them what aisle the milk is on is carrying a Glock 17 with a full clip of hot loads. In a situation where something DOES happen unexpectedly, you have the advantage of concealing your ace in the hole until the situation warrants it (if you were unlucky enough to be carrying a shotgun you'd be their first target). Finally, if firearms are part of your chosen protective strategy, a handgun is the only way to fulfill that strategy with a modicum of convenience.

When I can carry it (on the boat or in the car) I augment that with a Mossberg 12g convertible model. It has two barrrels to choose from, and both a conventional stock or a pistol grip to choose from. Naturally, I prefer the short barrel and the pistol grip for maximum flexibility. But it doesn't compare to the lightweight concealed Glock.

Like others, I hope that I never have to use either of these to kill. But like them I'm fully trained, practise regularly and would not hesitate a second to do so if the situation warrants it. I figure by being well trained and practised, my mind will not be preoccupied, but free to process the situation and make the best decision under stress. That's how the US armed forces do it, so it's good enough for me.

There, I got through that without a word about politics. Though I think the rednecks were all Democrats................

DougM
 
Side-track, anyone seen the t-shirt that says: "The right to keep and arm bears"? :) It's cool, shows a bear carrying a gun..

I'm with others on here about carrying a gun, I don't normally (Colorado is like GA apparently, you can carry one in your car with no permit or anything), but at times I do. I have had friends who were 4wheeling and had guns pulled on them, always from people that live out on these remote roads, which are actually public roads but they don't think so, things like that, they put up No Trespassing signs across a public road...

In most cases though showing a weapon is probably NOT what you want to do, since it just escalates the problem up to another level. But where waving a weapon around is stupid and dangerous, having one to possibly use if the situation arises is totally different IMO. I certainly never plan on using my gun to shoot anyone, but if it's a life or death situation and I can help, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
 
flintknapper

semlin said:
ok, so this is one area where Canadians and Americans are definitely a little different. Rifles are one thing, but can you help me understand why you want/need a handgun in your centre console? Don't assume I am anti right to bear arms or criticizing the idea of CCW or anything but I have never even seen a handgun in the possession of a private citizen other than a uniformed security guard so this thread is like Mars to me. Have any of you actually used your hand guns for any practical purpose even as a deterrent in a bad situation? Is this a hobby or something you do just to ensure the right exists? anyway, don't get defensive, I'm just curious...

Semlin, just another thought.......I don't really think that most Canadians are different from Americans with respect to gun ownership. It is just that the gun laws for all of Canada are being decided by those who live in the southern parts of your provinces of Quebec and Ontario. Actually, the recently enacted law requiring registation of ALL firearms in Canada has been met with quite a bit of resistance. Officals in no less than six provinces have declared that they will not prosecute those who refuse to register.

To me this speaks volumes.....and I am glad that many have recognized the folly of gun registration. What began as a program that was supposed to cost about 2 million dollars has already exceeded the 1 billion dollar mark and by all accounts has been a dismal failure. That kind of tells me what the people of Canada really think.

In the U.S. gun ownership and the Right to carry (responsibly) are on the increase and an interesting side note is that since 1991.....nationally, the homicide rate has fallen 42 percent! Funny, how the bad guys back off when they don't know who is and who isn't armed.

O.K. I'm done.....and my invitation still stands. Come to Texas and I will take you to the range and provide everything. Thanks for the interesting question.
 
thanks very much for the comments. Here are some of mine.

First off, I have nothing against handguns, and I'd be interested in learning to shoot one if I ever make it to Texas so thanks for the offer. It's just that knowing that most everyone in Canada manages to cope pretty well without them made me wonder what the rationale is down there for law abiding people in a very similar society to carry them around. Personally, I would not want to carry something that dangerous around unless I had a very good reason. I would just see it as a PITA to keep it secure. Each of you has given reasons that I think I can only understand by concluding that the US has a more violent society than Canada where you are more likely to be robbed or attacked. That's not necessarily a put down. It may just be a price you pay for having a freer and therfore more more wide open society. That has benefits too. On my vacation up the coast it is nearly automatic that if you see a newer boat over 50', it's American.

I can say too that the only times I have ever felt like I might want a gun are in the US, and that onetime in Alaska in a completely empty state campground when two extras from Deliverance drove into our spot to block us in I definitely did. Luckily they were too poor to own handguns or automatic rifles so they could only tell us about the ones they used to own.

The comments on the Canadian gun registry are completely justified. Making everyone register their rifles and pay a fair price for the privilege is absolutely idiotic. Rifles are not typically the weapon of choice for criminals. The registry was made that broad partly because of lobbying by police associations who wanted to be able to look up whether someone had a rifle before going into a domestic dispute. Not a good enough reason. Apart from the insane cost of a registry for millions of rifles, as a result thousands of family heirlooms and occasional use weapons have been turned in by Canadians who don't want to pay and are too law abiding to tell the government what they think, while a lot of other people have been galvanized into civil disobedience of the law and distrusting the government by such a stupid law.

I am not so sure I would be opposed to a registry of handguns and automatic weapons. There are always some limits in a free society (e.g., most people would agree that private citizens should not have tanks or poison gas) so I guess it's a question of where you draw the line. Maybe up here we could have the luxury of drawing it tighter because there are not so many handguns already out there in the wrong hands.

Oh and I am quite happy with the Queen thanks very much. The 800 years of hard won constitutional traditions that come with her figurehead status are an excellent bulwark against oppression from government and make it difficult for some idiot to tinker with a system that works. The sad thing is that more and more Canadians think the country's British origins are irrelevant or even "imperialist" so they are ready to trash all that in favour of some new touchy feely republic crap. Personally I prefer 800 years of gradual severely debated and often hard fought (with swords) incremental development over a bunch of idealists writing out an entire system in a few weeks. You guys were lucky to get your republic done the first time, but a lot of countries did not do so well trying to create a system out of whole cloth and paid a price. I think the French are on their fourth or fifth republic.
 
Tom Clancy has a tank......:D


His wife bought it for him.........


An M4 Sherman. It's in his yard.
 
flintknapper

semlin said:
thanks very much for the comments. Here are some of mine.

First off, I have nothing against handguns, and I'd be interested in learning to shoot one if I ever make it to Texas so thanks for the offer. It's just that knowing that most everyone in Canada manages to cope pretty well without them made me wonder what the rationale is down there for law abiding people in a very similar society to carry them around. Personally, I would not want to carry something that dangerous around unless I had a very good reason. I would just see it as a PITA to keep it secure. Each of you has given reasons that I think I can only understand by concluding that the US has a more violent society than Canada where you are more likely to be robbed or attacked. That's not necessarily a put down. It may just be a price you pay for having a freer and therfore more more wide open society. That has benefits too. On my vacation up the coast it is nearly automatic that if you see a newer boat over 50', it's American.

I can say too that the only times I have ever felt like I might want a gun are in the US, and that onetime in Alaska in a completely empty state campground when two extras from Deliverance drove into our spot to block us in I definitely did. Luckily they were too poor to own handguns or automatic rifles so they could only tell us about the ones they used to own.

The comments on the Canadian gun registry are completely justified. Making everyone register their rifles and pay a fair price for the privilege is absolutely idiotic. Rifles are not typically the weapon of choice for criminals. The registry was made that broad partly because of lobbying by police associations who wanted to be able to look up whether someone had a rifle before going into a domestic dispute. Not a good enough reason. Apart from the insane cost of a registry for millions of rifles, as a result thousands of family heirlooms and occasional use weapons have been turned in by Canadians who don't want to pay and are too law abiding to tell the government what they think, while a lot of other people have been galvanized into civil disobedience of the law and distrusting the government by such a stupid law.

I am not so sure I would be opposed to a registry of handguns and automatic weapons. There are always some limits in a free society (e.g., most people would agree that private citizens should not have tanks or poison gas) so I guess it's a question of where you draw the line. Maybe up here we could have the luxury of drawing it tighter because there are not so many handguns already out there in the wrong hands.

Oh and I am quite happy with the Queen thanks very much. The 800 years of hard won constitutional traditions that come with her figurehead status are an excellent bulwark against oppression from government and make it difficult for some idiot to tinker with a system that works. The sad thing is that more and more Canadians think the country's British origins are irrelevant or even "imperialist" so they are ready to trash all that in favour of some new touchy feely republic crap. Personally I prefer 800 years of gradual severely debated and often hard fought (with swords) incremental development over a bunch of idealists writing out an entire system in a few weeks. You guys were lucky to get your republic done the first time, but a lot of countries did not do so well trying to create a system out of whole cloth and paid a price. I think the French are on their fourth or fifth republic.

Semlin, thank you for your intelligently written response. I hope that none of the comments here have been offensive to you in any way. The demographics of the U.S. and Canada are quite different in many ways....and this alone would account for our different points of view.
Gun ownership and Gun control are hotly debated topics here in the states, so I knew your question was going to stir the passions (mostly mine) of some of the members.

Great to hear from our neighbors to the north!
 
Dan, but would you be ok if he had a nuclear submarine, armed? I also should have qualified my comment to mean a tank that wasn't nicknamed Ronson because it catches fire so easily :flipoff2:. A Sherman is something the local authorities could handle. Now a Churchill might be a handful.

Flintknapper, no offence taken at all. Just curious is all.
 
<<<<<"Now a Churchill might be a handful.">>>>>




Not even.....:rolleyes:


Now a Tiger would be another story...:D


An armed Boomer in civilian hands would be a bit nerve-racking.........:eek:
 
hmm, this thread is begging to be moved. Dan, in a tank battle you are right but as a citizen gone postal I'll take the churchill. I can't outrun the cops on the road in a Sherman which is what it did with other tanks and it will bog down fast in mud if I try the scenic route. Roadblocks are also a problem because a Sherman is really not that big and it tends to run up over things and tip instead of ramming through. The cops could stop me and then easily set me on fire. In a Tiger I would be pretty safe but I am so heavy I will sink easily offroad and I will break my treads onroad, plus I am likely to break down any minute, so the cops will get on top of me quick. In a Churchill I can chug along on or offroad for hours (albeit very slowly) and the armour is so thick they can't touch me. The Tiger gun is pretty good but I am not shooting at other tanks and as a wacked out civilian any of the guns will do the job.

Sherman M4 30.23 (tonnes) , Armour max 50 (mm) Armour min 25 (mm),
Primary Armament 75mm Gun M3 Calibre 75 mm Muzzle Velocity 560 m/sec Shell Weight 6.76 Kg Penetration (mm through vertical plate - calculated)
Range(metres) 100 200 400 800 1200 1600 2000 2400
Penetration(mm) 73 72 70 66 62 58 54 50
Flight Time(secs) 0.18 0.36 0.74 1.54 2.39 3.29 4.27 5.32

Churchill
Weight 40.00 (tonnes)
Armour max Width 152 (mm) Armour min 50 (mm) Primary Armament Ordnance Q.F. 75mm Muzzle Velocity 618 m/sec Shell Weight 6.57 Kg
Penetration (mm through vertical plate - calculated)
Range(metres) 100 200 400 800 1200 1600 2000 2400
Penetration(mm) 79 78 76 71 67 63 59 54
Flight Time(secs) 0.16 0.33 0.67 1.39 2.16 2.98 3.87 4.82

Tiger I 55.00 (tonnes) Armour max 100 (mm) Armour min 26 (mm) Primary Armament 8.8cm Kwk 36 L/56 Muzzle Velocity 810 m/sec Shell Weight 9.4 Kg
Penetration (mm through vertical plate - calculated)
Range(metres) 100 200 400 800 1200 1600 2000 2400
Penetration(mm) 108 107 104 99 94 89 84 79
Flight Time(secs) 0.12 0.25 0.5 1.05 1.62 2.22 2.86 3.54
 
:D


Ok, Simon, you win...:D


Oh, What if I jerk that POS Maybach motor out of the Tiger and stuff a big Cat diesel in it?......:flipoff2:
 
So much for the little gun talk...oh btw there is a place about 20 minutes from me that sells Unimogs, and other WWII stuff, including tanks, not alot but they do have them and you can legally own them, kinda cool!

http://www.coldwarremarketing.com

I've never actually went in to chat, driven by a bunch of times...
 
fllintknapper

mabrodis said:
So much for the little gun talk...oh btw there is a place about 20 minutes from me that sells Unimogs, and other WWII stuff, including tanks, not alot but they do have them and you can legally own them, kinda cool!

http://www.coldwarremarketing.com

I've never actually went in to chat, driven by a bunch of times...


I don't have any real use for one but UNIMOGS are kinda cool!
 
me, it'd break my heart to have an 88mm demilled...
E
 
e9999 said:
me, it'd break my heart to have an 88mm demilled...
E


Ditto


Besides, it would be almost impossible to find rounds for one, so it's not like it's a danger :rolleyes:
 

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