Brake pressure question

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Joined
Nov 24, 2009
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Location
Duxbury, MA
Struggling to get my brakes back to normal. Everything was good then one super cold morning I had to give a few pumps to develop pressure. Finally got around to changing the master out thinking it was the seal. After bleeding the master 3 times and going through 4 liters of brake fluid, I can't develop full pedal pressure. When I press the brake with the motor off I get a little creaking, whistling sound. With vacuum no pressure at all. Disconnected the front circuit and plugged the line port and got full pressure (I am running 4 drums with a boosted dual circuit instead of the old scary single). Enough to drive around and lock up rear. So, I think that rules out the master, right? Does this sound like a front wheel cylinder? I don't see any fluid anywhere and haven't had one fail before, so I don't know the symptoms. Any idea how I can diagnose further? Thanks for the advice! I am tempted to take it to the garage but that is just giving up in my book...I'm supposed to fix it...that's the whole point!
 
How long has the dual master been in place?

I assume it worked fine prior to your cold day? I was having a hard time getting pressure on mine and i realized i have my lines swapped at the master. Front line was at the rear reservoir and rear line at the front... could not get good pressure at all. swapped and all is good...

a shot in the dark.... hope it helps...
 
My guess is that you either have not fully bled the master or you have a defective replacement.

How are you bleeding the master?

As a suggestion, the way I do it is to put the master in a vise on the bench, (be careful not to over tighten the vise if you are clamping on the master body.)
Run a line from each port to its respective reseviour. (I use a hard line as I know this will not leak and they will not pop out or flop around.)
If there is only one reseviour then run a line from each port to the single res
Fill each res with brake fluid so it is over the bleeder lines so they they can only suck in fluid and no air.
Push the pitson in slowly and release slowly, continue to do this until no air bubbles are seen coming out of the bleeder lines.
Sometimes stepping away for a minute or two to let the bubbles float to the surface will help. If you push the piston in and out too fast, you just circulate the bubbles around and around.
Once you know you have all air out. mount the master on the vehicle leaving the bleed lines in place.
Then, remove one bleed line at a time and quickly install the brake line. Make sure you have a rag or something to catch the fluid that will drip as you swap the brake lines.

Next, I gravity bleed the system. (You do this with engine off.) Fill the master with fluid to top line. Leave master res cap off.

You need a flexible hose that you can attach to the bleeder on the wheel cyl (one at a time). This needs to be a clear hose like the ones that come with a mighty vac tool, these are perfect for this and are ahout 18" long.
Attach one end of hose to the bleeder on the wheel cyl and then raise the loose end is higher then the bleeder valve. I hold it straight up allowing the hose to bend up just past the bleeder valve. You can use a piece of wire, or something similar to keep it raised but I generally just hold it in hy hand. I also have a container handy as well to catch the fluid once I'm ready to lower the hose.
The loose end of the hose needs to be open.
Now open the bleeder on the wheel cylinder. (sometimes you will need to install the wrench on the bleeder and then attach the hose.) You may need to open the bleeder valve 1/2 to a full turn. The fluid or air should slowly start to come out the bleeder and into the hose. With the hose raised, you can easily see fluid or air coming out.

Once you have just fluid and no air, close the bleeder valve, then lower the hose to drain it into a container, then move on the the next bleeder.

This will usually get 100% of the air out of the system. Don't forget to check and refill the master as you move from wheel cyl to wheel cyl. I use this gravity method because I'm generally doing it by myself and don't have a helper to work the brake pedal. But I found that using this method first before trying to use a the helper method a;most always gets out all the air and also allows me to see when the fluid is running out clean and air free.

Note that the wheel cylinder bleeders need to be clean and free flowing. Sometimes they will get packed with dirt, rust, etc and will need to be removed and cleaned in order to get a good flow of fluid out the valve and not have a lot of fluid flowing out the bleeder threads.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks SHREG and MIKER, the system worked good before, pretty sure it is my novice mechanic skills. I used the helper method and the hoses just like you said (clear plastic instead of brake line) but maybe I'm just not done yet. Could be pushing air around maybe. Never heard of the gravity method. Will try that today and report back. Thanks for the detailed instructions!!!
 
Two unrelated problems...fixed

Problem solved. Posting up for the next reader. Master was the original issue, seal in the middle of the two pistons like I thought. Took me a really long time to fix that (I work) and in the mean time one of my brand new brake cylinders rusted fast. When I bled the lines I managed to suck air in twice since I didn't realize that the bottom of the filter basket in the new master would hold a little fluid after the outer ring was low...I put on a single reservoir replacement. Pulled the basket to monitor the fluid better and used method above. Then I got REALLY FRUSTRATED and decided to drive around a bit with marginal brake pressure and low and behold it stopped! WTF. Almost no pedal pressure in the garage but with a pump or two with the engine vac and some motion it stopped. Then one Saturday I jacked up each wheel to see if they were grabbing and discovered that the front drivers didn't engage. Pulled the drum and wife pumped th brakes. One of my NEW cylinders was rusted fast and apparently the travel of the other was not enough to engage the drum. Big ass screwdriver and some sand paper fixed the cylinder. Now everything works great. All adjusted up.

New question....hot brakes seem to put mild pressure on the drums (can't rock truck back and forth hot but can cold). I have good clearance using the 5 clicks back method in Haynes. Fluid shouldn't expand unless it boils, so I'm a little confused by this. And yes, I am still very much learning so sorry for the basic questions but basic posts have gotten me this far on two cruiser restos.... Thanks!
 

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