Bj74 pto vs elec winch (1 Viewer)

[Malahki]

I briefly considered using my Cruisers PTO to run a hydraulic system but that set up has more limitations then a belt driven pump. And yes I should have said I have not seen a really good "afordable" hydraulic winch set up for a 4x4. Oh and I would love to see a Kiwi winch challenge!! I am sure you would also equally enjoy seeing some of the heavy winching we do at my work.

Here is the view out my windshield while getting towed into location by two bed trucks with 75 ton winches hooked to my 24 wheel trailer and a Cat bulldozer tied to the front bumper!!

Plus a few other pics I have taken over the years showing some of the different equipment we use

 

[Malahki]

....and a couple more to show the added lifting ability of the bed trucks

 

[renago]

Super cooool !

I m much more naïf then you guys .
You are super pro.
My application would be Only occasional , But in remote places
I ma afraid that the electric winch will be soon cooked as IT happened ed to many of my friends.
I think I will go PTO winch.

Bye Renago

 

[clintnz]

Cool rigs! Some heavy duty winching there!

I briefly considered using my Cruisers PTO to run a hydraulic system but that set up has more limitations then a belt driven pump.

A belt driven pump to run a hydraulic winch is a bad idea when you have a PTO option on your vehicle. You can only put a fraction of the power though a belt (or 2) that you can deliver from a PTO drive.

A friend of mine who is a very good engineer & fabricator had a few attempts with different belt driven hyd pumps to run a winch on his FJ40 but it never worked that well compared with the std Toyota PTO so after scoring a complete PTO setup he has run that ever since.

Cheers
Clint

 

[fireball]

My 74 has a PTO winch. I've used it twice, maybe three times. I'm about to do a fairly serious off-roading event where the winch will see a lot of use. Vermont Overland Trophy

Can those of you who have a bit more experience using the PTO in wheeling type situations offer some advice and tips for a dummy like me?

Specifically... are you better off to be winching only and have the t-case in neutral? Or should I be winching in 1st/1st? I know the line speed and wheel speed won't be equal, but still seems better to have the drivetrain assisting the winch?

Someone above mentioned getting a feel for the PTO winch in regards to the shear pin and breaking. I do have a handful of extra shear pins, but am not sure what "getting a feel for the PTO" would entale. Is there a textile feel or audible clue like hearing and electric winch start to stall?

Any help greatly appreciated - thanks all!

 

[roscoFJ73]

but still seems better to have the drivetrain assisting the winch?

I think so, takes the load off the rope and the winch. Ideally ,the winch would be pulling it slightly faster than the wheels are pushing it.

 

[clintnz]

My usual strategy is to start winching with the t-case in N. Then if it's seeming like a hard pull or the wheels are trying to go through something rather than over it, stop & engage L to winch & drive. Often winching & driving makes slack in the cable which can lead to shock loads or snarl-ups so only do it when you need to & aren't likely to find enough traction anywhere to drive faster than the winch pull.

To get a feel for the load, go really easy on the throttle, 2nd gear vs 1st can help. If things are slowing down for a given application of throttle you're loading up. Take a handful of 4" nails & you'll have plenty of spare shear pins. I use a 4mm HT bolt now.

Always try to have someone watching the winch drum from a safe position off to the side, it's really easy to get a snarlup or drop a loop off the side of the drum, especially with wire rope. Make sure the cable is laid on nicely before the pull.

If you've still got the original wire rope taking a complete spare winch rope is a good idea.

Cheers
Clint

 

[SNLC]

View attachment 1016849 View attachment 1016853 At work in the oilpatch moving drilling rigs hydraulic is king and mechanical PTO's are dinosaurs. All the advantages of electric and PTO combined. Plus the added safety of being able to set hydraulic pressure to cut out before breaking the winch line. The only down side is you still need the motor running. Unfortuanetly I have yet to see a really good hydraulic set up on a 4x4

Here I am winching a 35,000kg (77,000lbs) building with a 27,000kg (60,000lbs) winch double lined onto a 40 wheel trailer combonation

Oh and for those in the know yes this hydraulic pump is PTO driven but the superior system uses a clutch and shaft right off the front of the engines crank to spin the pump giving 100% "live" hydraulics

Right.

You can run a hydraulic pump off a pto box. It will provide far more line pressure and flow that any other style pump. As a result if you run a hydraulic winch of a pto driven pump you will have the best winch there is.


On a separate note; Nissan ran a lot of PTO winches on Patrols. It is a very nice design, it uses the same free wheeling hub on the front axle for free spool and lock. I am sure you can imagine how having a spare hub could be useful. The Nissan PTOs can also be run by hand with a large wrench or socket. I am sure you can also imagine how that could be useful.

PTO winches are rated by the shear pins. They will pull a lot more which is why the shear pins are rated for what they are. Don't ever make the mistake of putting a grade 8 or better bolt in place of a shear pin.

Cheers

 

[jblueridge]

I drilled out the sheer pin hole on mine to be a tiny bit bigger to allow use of USA fractional inch mild steel rod. I don't recall the diam. but I will know this weekend as I sheared the pin recently while trying to pull someone out of a flooded stream ford swollen by flood. I did not hear any real warning bcause the roaring flood waters drowned out most everything. A loud sort of Bang signalled the pin's demise. I was bummed at the time but now that waters have fallen I can see the Tacoma was atop and wedged into big rocks... no wonder the winch failed.

 

[renago]

The PTO winch , has an immense pulling power .
I don't have an enormous experience, but used mine 3 times .
Pulled huge trees out of a ditch,with very little effort .
Must say that best practice will need 2 operators .
One in the car , the other out ,who activates the lever .
But in certain situation even 1 operator can manage .
Electric winch is much more friendly to operate but far less powerful,and resistant to fatigue.
PTO , will operate flawless even if un used for a long period of time .
Electric , contacts suffer from oxidation, if not used regularly.
Ref . Shear pin , I have drilled a 6 mm hole in order to use a high strength 6ma screw .
But must say , that I didn't even gone near the limit of the PTO .

By Renago

 

[clintnz]

Another tip if you're using wire rope: It's almost guaranteed to over run & have several loose wraps on the drum when you free spool out. So always expect to power out the last few metres with your winch man holding some tension on, & possibly have them hold a little tension on as you start to wind in to keep it laying nicely on the drum. Even with plastic rope that big steel drum has plenty of inertia when freespooling so don't be pulling it too fast as you get to your anchor point to avoid over spooling.

Don't run too much rope on the drum - you hardly ever get a straight line pull so it's good to leave some room for the rope to build up on one side - make sure your winch man knows to watch for this.

If you have the original roller fairlead (& a welder) an easy little mod you can do to make the Toyota PTO winch a little more idiot proof is to weld in some more steel so you can move the vertical rollers inwards about 3/4" each side, this makes it harder to lose a loop over the side of the drum when winching off to the side.

Cheers
Clint

 

[Malahki]

My point about running the hydraulic pump off the PTO was it comes with limitation. Its nice to be able to operate the winch independantly of the clutch / transmission. I was not aware that a belt driven pump could not produce the pump pressure needed.
The bed trucks and some of the winch tractors in the pictures I posted earlier have "live hydraulics" not PTO. They use a driveshaft and clutch right off of the crank on the front of the motor, that turns a hydraulic pump mounted behind the front bumper. It allows you to winch and drive somewhat independamtly of each other as required. The only common denominater is the engine rpm but you can always make adjustment to any situation either though the accelerator pedal, shifting gears, feathering hydraulic lever or a combination of all three. This is by far the best all around system but probably overkill for most 4x4's and ovbiously much more complicated and expensive to set up.

 

[clintnz]

My point about running the hydraulic pump off the PTO was it comes with limitation. Its nice to be able to operate the winch independantly of the clutch / transmission. I was not aware that a belt driven pump could not produce the pump pressure needed.
The bed trucks and some of the winch tractors in the pictures I posted earlier have "live hydraulics" not PTO. They use a driveshaft and clutch right off of the crank on the front of the motor, that turns a hydraulic pump mounted behind the front bumper. It allows you to winch and drive somewhat independamtly of each other as required. The only common denominater is the engine rpm but you can always make adjustment to any situation either though the accelerator pedal, shifting gears, feathering hydraulic lever or a combination of all three. This is by far the best all around system but probably overkill for most 4x4's and ovbiously much more complicated and expensive to set up.

Belt driven hydraulic pumps can generate enough pressure no problem, but you can't easily transmit enough power through a belt (or 2) to generate enough flow at a given pressure to run a winch very fast. So you add a lot of complexity over an electric winch for little advantage. PTO drive = more power = more flow = faster line speed.

One of the reasons the Nissan Patrol/Safari is a popular winch challenge truck is that they run the PTO off the transmission input. So with a hydraulic pump on that you get closer to the industrial setup you mention. For direct driving a winch with the PTO however the Toyota t-case setup is better as you can use the gearbox to vary the speed over a much wider range.

Cheers
Clint