Battery migration to LiFePO4 (or AGM)

[siberian]

Apologies if this has been covered but did a search didn't hit on anything. So AFAIK the LS200 2021s use a standard wet cell battery. Has anyone considered or migrated to AGM or LiFePO4?

I'm currently testing for a vendor the suitability of migrating from AGM given temp constraints that Lithium batteries have with deep cold. We're mitigating with thermal blankets to keep the unit cozy (though so far it's not really an issue as outside to battery location difference is over 50F) . The company have supplied me with monitoring tools to measure voltage, temp etc.

My interest in Li is weight savings, some very interesting safety/design features and consistent power. Moving from AGM to Li saves nearly 40 pounds and that sucker is a real pain to heave out. So just wondering if anyone has considered or done this while we all (of course) await a complete 48 volt system. Sort of like IPv6 that was due to be implemented 20+ years ago. Thanks for your comments/thoughts

siberian

 

[grinchy]

I’ve run stock, stock sized AGM, group 31 normal and LFP+capacitor.
They each have their specific strengths and weaknesses. The alternative type usually require some sort of alternator voltage booster.

Currently I’m on a very small cranking motorcycle LFP and a group 31 supercapacitor.

I haven’t run a full size standalone ’cranking’ rated LFP, I like the idea but the cost was high last I looked.

<replaced size 30 with group 31)

 

[bloc]

Curious that the trouble to get the battery in and out is even a concern given how infrequently that needs to happen.

As for saving weight overall? Great idea. But the 40# for the battery can be saved by being smart about other mods, without any of the compromises compared to a high quality FLA.

 

[Sandroad]

Battery type is a frequent and extensively discussed topic on here for both starting and auxiliary batteries. I’ll summarize by noting you’ll find strong opinions for and against wet cell vs AGM. However, a sizable majority are opposed to LiPO4 under the hood due to temperature extremes and challenges with integrating the battery management system and the vehicle charging system. If the vehicle you’re getting has the factory Panasonic I would leave it alone. Those are really good batteries. I went with FLA for a replacement.

 

[siberian]

Thank you all for your input. On a Porsche 40 pounds is a BIG deal obviously on an SUV less so, though anything you can do to save weight (like removing the third row seats a must do) will help gas mileage etc.

Do you need to register the battery for a 2021 or was that prior to this nonsense?

As for this battery I'm testing it actually doesn't need any registration going from AGM to LiFePO4 - I can expound if anyone is interested. A concern here is of course temps but also consistent current. As a totally irrelevant point to LCs for example, one of the reason Porsche went with LiFePO4 for those vehicles with rear axle steering (RAS) is the consistent current needed in the electrohydraulic system. Given the issues that we've had with them when they first came out (not to mention the staggering cost) they've now built 992s with RAS and AGM's. But back to Land Cruisers. I'm not familiar with the requirement differences between FLAs and AGM since my stable didn't have any, so curious as to the reaction of those that did upgrade to AGM and pros and cons.

Thanks for your thoughts

siberian

 

[rlynch356]

IMHO from personal experience..
Just buy the longest warranty battery you can easily get and replace and don't worry about Wet vs AGM.. there is no real advantage to an AGM in our uses I feel.

My last battery for the 200 was a lifetime warranty (80 month) Toyota one... for a reasonable price.. in the system and any Toyota dealer will honor the warranty. Where your at get one local with a great warranty from whomever. (Napa, Advance Auto, etc)

AGM - I have used for 12+ years in my Defender (a lot of off-road winching, heavy use etc) - I'm going to get a normal wet cell next for it (battery is that old and not keeping a solid charge). It's fine but why pay 2x as much for something that lasts the same amount of time (about 5-6 years if kept charged on a charger regularly like I do) My wet cells in other trucks last as long.

Lithium are great for non-truck loads - i.e. house stuff - fridge, whatever is a constant load device but need to be A) kept in a temp range to work and charge properly or the BMS shuts it down (or turns on a heater) and B) need to charged via dedicated charge profile, all the under hood batteries seem to have a very short life span as the built in BMS charge profiles seem to all BS. C) constant heat of the engine bay kills them fast.

Also lithium is not made for the loads that say a winch puts on a battery, 100 amp constant - sure all day till it dies, 500 Amp spikes from a winch, not so much.. the BMS shuts it down. So why pay 5x for that?

Use lithium for the house energy needs and wet for the fast recharge it offers, Wet cells can take a ton of input load on charge and charge fast from your alternator (more than an AGM without damage)..

Anyway... your mileage may vary.... My opinion only.

 

[siberian]

I'm sorry (but not surprised) to read that the BMS on Toyotas is no better than the crap on Porsche. The system sucks; as for registering many haven't and some that did just registered the same number. Why if you're already there not read the number off the new battery but hey it takes all kinds. From my experience what I've seen not registering a new battery will not kill it. Given the sad state of the BMS code I doubt it does much,

So you're confirming that registration is "required" for a 2021. Since my "new" LC will be 5 years old from build date and with 40 below to be expected for the foreseeable few months, a potential new battery is something to be placed on the bucket list.

Again thank you for your thoughts

siberian

 

[grinchy]

I'm sorry (but not surprised) to read that the BMS on Toyotas is no better than the crap on Porsche. The system sucks; as for registering many haven't and some that did just registered the same number. Why if you're already there not read the number off the new battery but hey it takes all kinds. From my experience what I've seen not registering a new battery will not kill it. Given the sad state of the BMS code I doubt it does much,

So you're confirming that registration is "required" for a 2021. Since my "new" LC will be 5 years old from build date and with 40 below to be expected for the foreseeable few months, a potential new battery is something to be placed on the bucket list.

Again thank you for your thoughts

siberian

What do you mean by registration?

 

[doru]

Operating temps are obvious consideration and it looks like you're addressing that. But the battery has to match the charging unless you plan on making changes to that to.
I run a lithium battery on my supersport motorcycle, but its only duty is to start the bike. Weight and space in my case is very important. I did replace the regulator with a lithium friendly one designed to fit my bike. I do not know if there is such an option for 200.
For 200 if you are not intending to have a dual battery (original for starting/winch and secondary for camping, etc) I would just stick with what the factory intended.
The weight saving issue ... sorry but I LOL when I read it. This is a tank in comparison, and even 100lbs more or less is pedantry. Your Porche owner mindset got the better of you I know I've been there when I first got my truck.

 

[sdnative]

I would not recommend lithium as the under-hood starting battery (assume LiFePO4?) Low temps in AK are a concern as they should not be charged below some temperature (I don't remember the number off the top of my head, but I believe it is around 32F / 0C), and the high engine temps are probably not good either. The factory charging profile is not ideal for this chemistry, worse than for AGM SLA. And the low internal resistance can put quite a burden on your alternator as already mentioned.

I would stick with FLA as the primary starting battery and reserve the lithium for inside the cab behind a proper DC-DC charger.

I'm sure others will disagree as this is an often strongly debated topic. But that's what I would do.

 

[40Man]

I bought an x2 AGM in 2019. No capacitor or other changes. Still going strong.

 

[TeCKis300]

When is a battery is not just a battery. When it's a single component as part of a larger electrical sub-system. There are integration, interface, and design requirements. There are environmental requirements. There are durability and performance requirements that must hold up beyond a narrow sunny day use case.

Spending more for a great component, that is not well integrated, makes for a less reliable and less performant electrical sub-system. A less reliable electrical sub-system makes for a less reliable system, i.e. vehicle.

A system is greater than the sum of its parts when it's well designed, integrated, and validated. That's why we're drawn the Land Cruiser. Hard to make better after mother Toyota spent $$$ with design and extra testing, much easier to inadvertently make worse.

AGMs need different voltages and is not compatible with the interface charging profiles of the temp compensating alternator. When shoehorned into the system, it results in systemic undercharging, sulfation, and premature failure. AGMs as valve regulated lead acid batteries also cannot handle super high temps that are found underhood. Larger group 31s put the battery even closer to the hot manifolds. Combine that with hot temperature regions, low speed rock crawling and idling, and AGMs will not last. That has shown on these forums time and time again. The guys that say it works plug in regularly to external float chargers and/or only use their vehicles seldomly as trip vehicles.

Lithiums are a no-go for thermal runaway risks.

LifePO4s can be made to work in mild climates. As mentioned earlier, these can be brutal to alternators at low states of charge (AGMs also) as they present as huge loads. Then combine this in a vehicle that has other electrical loads, and overheating/killing the alternator is a very real risk.

Use the battery type that the system was designed for.

A meaningful upgrade is high quality Group 31 (30% more capacity) maintenance free flooded lead acid. Note that these will still be closer to the radiator and manifolds so may be worthwhile to put a heat barrier for maximum longevity.

 

[siberian]

Not much of an issue in Porsche as on the 992 the battery is up front (engine in rear of course) and on the Macan battery is nestled in the trunk and engine up front for the AGM. The real issue is the crappy BSM software of course. As I mentioned I'm currently testing a 5 year old AGM battery with a view of going to LiFePO4 on a 3.0L Macan S. Temps are near -40 but very balmy inside the trunk,

Appreciate the feedback re. LS200. Thank you!

siberian

 

[terdrocket]

In our 2015 200, I installed an Antigravity lithium battery.
I wasn't driving the 200 much at the time and kept killing the Odyssey battery to the point of failure.
The Antigravity has an emergency start mode. If the voltage drops to a certain level, the battery shuts itself off. There is a button on the battery and a remote that wakes the battery and allows a "jump start" to get going again.
So far it has been flawless.

 

[siberian]

@grinchy by registration I mean several years ago, manufacturers found another way to limit (they thought) our right to repair and integrate (read complicate) ever more the faulty BMS into the vehicle by forcing a "registration" of a new battery.

This had to be done (initially) via the proprietary manufacturer's software; others like Autel, Launch etc. included this several years later. Rumors of death doom and destruction followed that if you didn't register the new battery the car would destroy the battery as it would charge the new battery based on the old meaning it would overload a new battery thinking it was still the weak one you just replaced. Plain BS. Many have not bothered and in the case of AntiGravity (see below) they don't even require a change in nomenclature in the software from AGM to LiFePO4 (I can expound more if anyone is interested). Below is an example using PIWIS of the battery registration process on my 992. In this case as a test I changed (as seen by the pencil icon) the Li to AGM. I would then need to enter the other details as shown on the screen. I take it this process is not needed on a 2021?

@terdrocket AntiGravity are the folks I'm testing for. And the reason I'm interested (other than gaining knowledge) is the shut-off and emergency feature especially for the wife's car. I can explain until I'm blue in the face how the NOCO jump pack works but I know the day it would come to that she wouldn't remember where it was let alone how to use it. This is pretty foolproof - well assuming she doesn't loose the little FOB .

siberian

 

[terdrocket]

My Antigravity battery has never experienced cold like Alaska. It is almost 3 years old.
My son drives the truck to college in Boone, North Carolina and it has sat in remote parking lots though North Carolina freezes and snow storms.
So far, with our use it has been great.

 

[siberian]

That's good to know. Here are some of the readings with outside temp at -30F, lowest battery hold temp at 17F, and lowest voltage was 12.4v with the highest at 15.8

siberian

 

[doru]

So, the "registration" is basically programming the car to know what battery it has installed. Basically, changing the charging profile used by the alternator/regulator. That will easily cover the use of multiple types of batteries in the same vehicle, like acid and AGM, w/o having to replace parts or use battery tenders for optimal performance. I don't see anything wrong or nefarious with that, unless they lock it down to only their batteries.
Antigravity fob does use a battery so you may want to have that battery replacement in your preventive maintenance schedule. If the physical button is accessible in the engine bay, you're fine, if not ... do not ask how I know.

 

[sdnative]

Can the LC/LX electrical components handle 15.8V (or potentially more)?

 

[siberian]

Yes if the underlying BMS system actually worked. In reality the software is so buggy that it's caused more problems than it supposedly solved. And of course for those initially affected with $2k+ dead LiFePO4 batteries the dealerships weren't able to help other than refusing to exchange it as batteries normally aren't but they also didn't know how to service the issue not to mention no replacement batteries available. And therein lies the crux of the problem; the dearth of qualified techs.

But yes, you do need to change the FOB battery for the Antigravity emergency start... However given the alternative of cables etc.

siberian