Battery Isolators...

[mobi-arc]

Worst case scenario (ie lousy connections), 24 millivolts, that's .024 volts. Good connections .05 to .010....no solenoid on the planet can touch it. Printed circuit board layout is in process. View an updated drawing and dimensions to scale at www.mobi-arc.com/isolatorscale.pdf

 

[Riley]

B - I was looking at the wiring diagram myself last night. It looks good to me, the only thing you can't do is totally start off of battery #2 (but you can parallel them as you would in jumping).

Arya - I'm gonna try to get my battery tray in this week and if it goes well I might be for a group buy. What's the list cost on these units? $130 for a group buy seems high but then I never priced these yet. Perhaps I'm in for a surprise.

Don't forget the required switch as well.

 

[Arya Ebrahimi]

West Marine lists them for $154.99 a piece. That seems to be just about the going rate for them from what I can tell.

As for the switch, I'm planning to use a factory rear heat switch and figure out some way to relabel it for the intended function(blatantly stealing RavenTai's idea ).

Ary

 

[RavenTai]

Mr Bareback (aka Raven) - any progress on wiring up your dual setup? I'm liking the Bluesea 9112 setup as it seems to make the most sense to me.

Anybody buy this solenoid and switch system?

Here's a link to the switch for controlling it - switch

anybody know if I can easily mount that in one of the dashboard switch punch outs in an 80 series?

Mr Bareback? Do we know someone in common?

Not done yet, I am in Florida for this week and next did not want to get into it before the trip.

Got 2 Concorde Lifeline group 27 “SLAVRAGM” batteries on the second try, UPS is hard on batteries, on Christmas weekend got the interior switch wired in, I used a rear heat switch from one of the parted out 80’s got the switch and 6” of the harness and plug for $20, fits perfectly in the blanks on the left of the steering wheel, has green LED for alternator controlled, orange LED for manual parallel, nothing for off, also is wired in for backlighting like the rest of the dash, unfortunately it say’s “Rear Heat” changing the lettering looks difficult, had to disassemble the switch and cut a trace and add a seventh wire to get the led’s to work.

Wiring in the seven wires for the rear heat switch was a bit of work, I could have just used a guarded SPDTCO (single pole double throw, center off) I would not have had to tap into factory wiring. Only 3 wires.

When I get back I will start on it again and I will post up the details when done. Attached is a quick and dirty diagram, -B- that is similar to what that blue sea diagram minus the auto sensing wiring. I will make a better more detailed diagram when I post up the details. May also put up some diagrams for more complicated setups I considered, finally decided on the simplest.

I am still thinking of adding a second ford style starter solenoid to break the started lead controlled by a momentary switch hidden in the cab, two purposes, one to make it harder for thieves to steal the cruiser, other to have a second chance in case of starter hang, not sure it is worth the cost, complication and most importantly another failure point.

Not really interested in the 9112, first it is more expensive, the only feature it has over the cheaper 9012 is voltage sensing, In the 80 series we already have a circuit that is powered when the alternator is powered on. Also worried about heavy loads drawing down the voltage possible causing the 9112 to think the alt is not making any output when it actually is, this may lead to excessive cycling and shorter life.
I may be interested in a group buy on the Tyco electronics version, there can be had for $45 in 5,000 count direct from Tyco, that is quite a margin to the $100 price blue sea wants. We may be able to find them in the $60-$70 range, I need to do some m ore looking, the blue sea 9012 can be had for $106 online

 

[RavenTai]

West Marine lists them for $154.99 a piece. That seems to be just about the going rate for them from what I can tell.

As for the switch, I'm planning to use a factory rear heat switch and figure out some way to relabel it for the intended function(blatantly stealing RavenTai's idea ).

Ary

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery ;p

look into the 9012 or the Tyco originals, will be $100 or less all that is neede3d for the 80

 

[Riley]

Mr Bareback? Do we know someone in common?

just quoting you,,,, "sorry for the spelling grammer, bu my windows machine died last week. open office under linux is giving me problems. have to type bareback"

Thought it was a funny.

Raven - you've got an interesting point about the heavy loads might cause the auto-sense feature to screw up. I'm gonna need to think about it. But I like the idea of connecting the batteries once the truck is charging.

 

[RavenTai]

just quoting you,,,, "sorry for the spelling grammer, bu my windows machine died last week. open office under linux is giving me problems. have to type bareback"

Thought it was a funny.

Raven - you've got an interesting point about the heavy loads might cause the auto-sense feature to screw up. I'm gonna need to think about it. But I like the idea of connecting the batteries once the truck is charging.

AHHH, yea there are even spelling mistakes in the disclaimer. now you know how bad my spelling really is

I have noticed my rebuilt Bosch alt cannot keep up with the loads in the rain at night at a stoplight, front and rear defrost, wipers, headlights, brake lights, radio, etc. It cannot keep up at idle and the lights dim, volt gage drops (but the light does not come on, important note as this is where we are controlling the solenoid) - I assume down to batt voltage as the battery has to make up the difference in amps, not sure if an OEM alternator would do the same. the voltage picks back up as soon as I go off idle, if I had the auto sensing solenoid it would think the engine was shut down and disconnect every time system voltage dropped,

This may be nice for keeping the batteries from ever seeing each other but it is such a short time and both of my batteries will be in good shape so opening the solenoid during these shot temporary low voltage times is unimportant to me.

Another possibility is paralleling to a severely depleted battery that can accept a high inrush of current this may also drop the voltage, the solenoid would open voltage would return, it would close, voltage would drop, it would open .......etc........etc possible at a high rate of speed. But I am not sure if there is a battery that would be used in an 80 that could soak up all the alternators output (AGM?). So that is just a theory

I do plan to run loads from the second battery, having those loads shed in the low voltage event at the light could allow the alt to get back to 14 volts the the solenoid re-close re-open etc and set up the same oscillation

Where when using the “alternator good wire” controlling it Does the same thing closing and opening the solenoid automatically when the alt is charging but without opening until the engin is shut down or the alternator fails

 

[Beowulf]

Anyone see any reason not to do this?

Ary,
Determining what loads will be on the primary and what will be on the secondary is an individual choice. If you know you will be leaving the headlights on for things like setting up camp and things like that then having them on the secondary is a good thing.

Some people build their dual systems to keep one battery isolated all the times to be used for starting the vehicle. Some split factory loads (lights, starter, stock stuff) and added loads (OBA, CB, work lights, winch, fridge, 12v outlets, sound systems.)

I haven't decided how my loads will be split.

-B-

 

[Riley]

A couple of questions Raven:

- Where is the alternator "good" signal available to tap into? I don't have the wiring diagram yet.

- I was thinking that the "always hot" signal to the rear heater switch might not always be hot if the second battery is dead. Is there a reason you used that battery instead of the main?

- Where is the PWM happening? Inside the relay? Regarding the value of the capacitor, anything really big should do the trick, the value isn't that critical, say 200uF should be ok I think.

- where does a guy crimp 1/0 gauge cables?

Keep us posted as you work through this.

 

[RavenTai]

A couple of questions Raven:

- Where is the alternator "good" signal available to tap into? I don't have the wiring diagram yet.

Get the EWD it is very handy.

Applies to 96 LX, others should be similar if not the same:

It starts in the regulator in the alternator, goes from the alt to the “7.5a charge” in the under hood fuse-box, most people pick it up there. The signal travel’s through the fuse to the EA1 connector between the fuse box and fender where it goes into the harness going to the dash. It then goes into the cluster,

I forgot to check wile I had the cluster out but a lot of the connection on the cluster are made through small screws, I am hoping this is one of them, if so it is a nice dry place to put a nice little reversible non destructive ring terminal.

- I was thinking that the "always hot" signal to the rear heater switch might not always be hot if the second battery is dead. Is there a reason you used that battery instead of the main?

You got it, the idea there is to be able to start of either battery,

if the main battery is dead or removed it would not be able to close the solenoid to bring aux battery power to the starter so the power to close the solenoid must come from the second battery to connect the second battery to the starter.

If the second battery is dead there is no reason to bring it on in the manual on position, I would start of the main battery, it would have to wait for the auto on with the alternator to charge ti back up.

If both batteries are dead I am just SOL.

- Where is the PWM happening? Inside the relay? Regarding the value of the capacitor, anything really big should do the trick, the value isn't that critical, say 200uF should be ok I think.

Yes there is a control circuit in the solenoid that generates the “pulse width modulated” current to the coil of the solenoid Blue Sea describes is as:

“• Pulse circuit requires very low current draw when contact is closed”

Tyco the maker of the solenoid describes it as

• Built-In Coil Economizer - Only 1.7 W hold
power @ 12 Vdc making it ideal for battery
powered systems.


I was wondering about the value of the cap, is this one of those places where I need to match the cap to the load based on frequency and peak current? neither of witch I know, IE a narrow band of cap values that resonate. or is it a bigger dampener is better thing?

I am hoping it is the second because When resistance turns into impedance is where I get lost in electronics. And this is a square wave.

- Where does a guy crimp 1/0 gauge cables?

I am going to crimp them in my driveway with a #3 swage-it-tool I got at Aircraft Spruce , this is yet untested by me but it is suppose to work. The swage-it-tool is a lot cheaper than a dedicated crimper (looks like a bolt cutter with different head) but it is slower, also makes a nice round crimp that appeals to me as I swage control cables at work with a similar but powered process..

Lots of other Idea’s in this thread.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=21100

Keep us posted as you work through this.

Will do. As long as I have been pestering the board about this subject (almost a year?) I don’t think -B- would let me off the hook without feedback.

 

[Rich]

When I set up my dual battery I will feed all loads from a Bat1, Bat2, Both, Off switch. Then I will be able to use either or both batteries to power all loads including starting and winching, and also with the same switch have a total battery disconnect.

Automatic dual battery charging, while not necessary with this setup, will be accomplished by the addition of a solenoid. A small switch will provide the capability to disable automatic solenoid based dual battery charging whenever that is desirable.

The winch will be switched by a separate On, Off switch that will be connected to the same Bat1, Bat2, Both, Off switch. The On, Off switch prevents anybody from powering the winch without being able to first get under the hood.

A small relay will disable automatic solenoid based dual battery charging when the winch switch is turned on.

I think this approach provides the most flexibility of enabling either battery to power all loads, single switch complete disconnect, manual control of battery usage, and automatic parallel charging when desired.

 

[Riley]

Rich, that switch for the loads will be in the engine compartment?

I'd be interested in pics and details when you're done. I think I'll start with the charging setup and then go from there.

Raven - was that crimp tool thingy expensive? where did you buy it?

 

[RavenTai]

you must have missed the Aircraft Spruce link abover, they have a retail store in the next town over, it was $36, you can buy from them online also but aircraft spruce is generally overpriced, if going online I am sure you can find it cheaper

 

[Rich]

Riley,

The battery switch will be underhood. Will be using the west marine house branded blue seas battery switches.

 

[Riley]

you must have missed the Aircraft Spruce link abover, they have a retail store in the next town over, it was $36, you can buy from them online also but aircraft spruce is generally overpriced, if going online I am sure you can find it cheaper

Opps, sorry about that Raven. I did read it but it was last night and forgot you already mentioned it.

i guess I have no reason to delay this, just buy the parts & tools and get going.

 

[Beowulf]

Rich,

2 questions.

1. Do you have a wiring diagram you can share?

2. Why do you delete so many of your posts? You can edit a post if you don't like the wording and want to change something.

-B-

 

[Riley]

2. Why do you delete so many of your posts? You can edit a post if you don't like the wording and want to change something.

-B-

I was wondering that too.... Some of the heated emails I send at work could make use of an edit feature after I hit send....

 

[Rich]

B

1. No wiring diagram, but I think you could work most of it out from the verbal description above.

No loads connect directly to the battery positives, all loads connect to output of the battery switch. Only the input to the battery switch connects to the battery positive terminals. Solenoid parallels batteries as you would expect, driven by alternator good wire as on George's diagram.

A simple switch interrupts the alternator good feed to the solenoid to provide manual disablement of automatic parallel charging. This could be easily installed in dash.

Output from battery switch to winch goes through another heavy duty on off switch.
A normally closed relay, installed in the feed from alternator good wire to the solenoid, is powered to open whenever the on off winch switch is turned to on, thus automatically disabling the solenoid based battery paralleling when winching. This avoids winch current draw from passing through solenoid.

If somebody can point me to a source of visio templates for automotive electical diagraming I could find time to put together a diagram.

2. Just an odd preference on my part. Guess I'm fussy that way.

 

[RavenTai]

not sure waht a Visio template is, but I have used Tina a virtual breadboard to make diagrams, (sorry the above one was just MS paint) the trial version does not allow you make anything complicated or save anything but that does not stop me from taking screen shots

 

[Beowulf]

Rich,

Here are a few templates that have most 12v DC components that I could think of but not everything. I'll try to find some more.

http://hdcruisers.angeltowns.net/Files/telec.zip
http://hdcruisers.angeltowns.net/Files/components.zip
http://hdcruisers.angeltowns.net/Files/switches.zip

-B-