Any Ford 300 straight 6 engine swaps or advice out there? (2 Viewers)

[Mace]

Chubbs...

Is a hi around here.

Building a six is not rocket science. There are individuals on here that have spent a considerable amount of time and money on the different variations of the LC six.

Clifford makes almost nothing for LC sixes so they are a bit off the radar. Not that they do not make a good product..

A six does not take less fuel to create the same amount of power as a V8. The only reason V8's can use more fuel is because they create more power.

Ford swaps are complicated because there are not as many off the shelf conversion parts. The Marks adapters add length to an already long motor. A V8 is much shorter so it is not as big of a deal. Anything can be done. It is just a question as to if it is a good idea or not.

Novelty is cool tho..

 

[Wile E Coyote]

You want novelty...I have a 500 Caddy motor sitting in the garage. That's some serious stump-pullin novelty in a cruiser.

 

[chubbs_starlightloun]

Actually, building the L6 is a science. If you take into consideration just what it takes to make one breath properly, and you get all the angles covered, you can build an L6 that will create comparable power and still use less fuel than a v8. The Ford 300 is a perfect example. Auto manufacturers that offer v8s purposefully under build the L6 to make the v8 more desirable. My rodding buddies and I have been building L6s for years and love to go out and smoke a v8 on the occasional weekend without spending all the cash.

Now, Wile E Coyote has a serious v8!

 

[Mace]

So, what would you and clifford do to a LC six?

 

[chubbs_starlightloun]

Check your compression ratio. If you are running pump gas, 9.5:1 is good. Most factory L6s are not near that. If you half to, deck it.
Check your breathing by using a split manifold and stop starving 1 and 6. Two one barrels built by ford in the early sixties, I forget the model number, we call it a bug spray, mostly found on falcons, had the largest throats on a one barrel, or if you like buying gas, use two two barrels. Clifford has a really good throttle body with computer that can be adapted to any L6. Split the exhaust manifold, being careful of the firing order. Some set ups can require a custom header. If you keep the pipe size near factory to the muffler,(surely you arent using converters), you can use dual exhaust if you put in a crossover tee before the muffler, or use a larger diameter tube ofter the muffler. Polish the exhaust ports and port the heads. You donot want turbulence leaving the exhaust, it is like having congestion. Do I need to continue?

 

[RockDoc]

I humbly bow to you Chubbs, looks like you have a wealth of knowledge.

Are there any good general L6 forums out there? Or does this kind of understanding come piecemeal from here and there, and first hand tinkering?

The starving of 1 and 6 intrigues me. Is this a general problem with L6s or focused on the Ford 300? Or carbed L6s?

Any thoughts on tuning the exhaust for an efi engine with 2 manifolds dumping (1-3, 4-6) into 2 down-pipes? Right now I have them running into a dual inlet muffler, then single out back. Benefits to putting in a cross-over pre-muffler? or collecting into a single inlet?

 

[chubbs_starlightloun]

The cross over pre-muffler equals the pressure so that both banks are receiving the same back pressure. Not having this crossover and having duel carbs that tend to get out of sync, can cause bad engine performance that sometimes can be hard to find.
The starving of the 1 and 6 is inherent in all L6s because of the distance from a centrally located carb.
The closest cylinders tend to monopolize the intake mixture. It sounds as if you have the start to a good system. Try polishing the exhaust ports. You want the exhaust to exit smoothely leaving behind little garbage. Do not go more than 1/2 over the in side tubes on the exhaust for the out flow. I have seen some guys go with 3 inch out the muffler, but this can cause tuning problems because it lets the exhaust free flow and you need the back pressure.
Most of what I have picked up over the years comes from shops where the old timers hang out. They did not have Jeggs available to them so they had to build it. One of the oldest rodders that still hangs around the shop is 84. Sometimes his stories get a little out there. One of the old timers I used to run with, my father-in-law, was good friends with Darrell Starbird and his family. He passed away 10 years ago and I still think he a lot I could have learned.

 

[chubbs_starlightloun]

By the way, I can build v8s, did it for years, but anymore, anyone can build a v8. There no longer a challenge.

L6 engines are so unique in that they tend to have massive amounts of torque, but no power. Building the L6 using v8 knowledge just doesnt always work. You can time an L6 in the shop and wonder why it runs like crap on the street. If you have a good ear and a gentle touch, the L6 likes to be road tuned.
One of the newest products we have put in one of our engines is the new pulse plug. So far, it seems to live up to its reputation, though it is expensive. That is the one part we couldnt believe no one thought of improving for the past 100 years. It only makes sense, good air, good fuel, good spark is what it is all about. The first engine I built was a flat head 6 from a Desoto. That was a lot of fun.

 

[Mace]

Check your compression ratio. If you are running pump gas, 9.5:1 is good. Most factory L6s are not near that. If you half to, deck it.
Check your breathing by using a split manifold and stop starving 1 and 6. Two one barrels built by ford in the early sixties, I forget the model number, we call it a bug spray, mostly found on falcons, had the largest throats on a one barrel, or if you like buying gas, use two two barrels. Clifford has a really good throttle body with computer that can be adapted to any L6. Split the exhaust manifold, being careful of the firing order. Some set ups can require a custom header. If you keep the pipe size near factory to the muffler,(surely you arent using converters), you can use dual exhaust if you put in a crossover tee before the muffler, or use a larger diameter tube ofter the muffler. Polish the exhaust ports and port the heads. You donot want turbulence leaving the exhaust, it is like having congestion. Do I need to continue?

9.5:1 will upgrade a LC six to mid grade if not premium..

Where can we get a split manifold? The super early LC motors did have a dual one barrel option available (FJ25) but it is not compatible to the older manifolds..

Fords dual one barrels starve something fierce on hills.. How do you propose to deal with this.

What firing order do we have to be concerned about?? What cylinders "should" be grouped?

What size dual exhaust?

Will a 3/2/1 exhaust work for the crossover?

what causes turbulence in the exhaust?

Please continue..

Are oiling issues something that needs to be addressed? And, if so, waht exactly do we need to do?

 

[chubbs_starlightloun]

Are you for real? Build your own manifold. We did it for years, it works fine if you are good in the shop.
Ford duals starving? That is why used the carb from ford 170 engines. That particular carb popped up again later on some ford 140 4 cyl. Beyond that, I think you are trying to skunk me with these questions.
Dont you know how to take care of those problems. Have you ever ported the oil passages on a crank for better lubrication?

I really dont know what you want here. Use 2 1/2 and back out with 2 7/8.

Either I am getting tired or I think you are trying to bait me. Some of these questions, everbody should know.

 

[Mace]

Are you for real? Build your own manifold. We did it for years, it works fine if you are good in the shop.
Ford duals starving? That is why used the carb from ford 170 engines. That particular carb popped up again later on some ford 140 4 cyl. Beyond that, I think you are trying to skunk me with these questions.
Dont you know how to take care of those problems. Have you ever ported the oil passages on a crank for better lubrication?

I really dont know what you want here. Use 2 1/2 and back out with 2 7/8.

Either I am getting tired or I think you are trying to bait me. Some of these questions, everbody should know.

What I am trying to do here is figure out if you have done a single thing with the LC motor or if everything you are saying is generated from the Ford specs.

Building a manifold is a bit above the standard wrench.. It is not impossible at all but typically it involves a TIG and some handy mill work...

There is not a single doubt that a ford six is a good motor. The longevity is good, and the power is respectable..

But you are speaking in generalities.

The ford 170 carb (we are talking about the carter not the Holley right?) is a reasonable unit that was designed to compensate for angles. But from the experiences I have with it, it still does not perform as well as a Stock LC carb does at an angle (based on buddies with broncos). And, finding parts for the 170 carb is getting more and more difficult every day.

Which clifford FI system were you referring to? The TBI system or the double duces?

The oil passages in the LC crank are fairly good, they could use some beveling but nothing more than that. The oiling system itself tends to starve the rod bearings. Unfortunately, opening up the holes in the crank is not good enough. Serious oil pump mods need to be performed to get proper performance...

Dual 2.5" exhaust to a single 2.875"? is that what you are recommending?

What HP are we talking about and what RPM's are going to be necessary?

If you have secrets we would really love to know them.

If you could outline exactly what needs to be done to a LC motor to get a certain HP/Torque we would appreciate it immensely...

It is awesome hearing examples of how to get more power out of the stock LC six... So far, normally aspirated sixes tap out at about 200hp before they become unreliable. Do you think they can be pushed furhter than that?

 

[weak-link]

it sounds like someone just read

 

[RockDoc]

Someone else just ordered

 

[RockDoc]

OK guys, I have heard enough, I'm gonna swap a Ford 300 striaght six into my 84 fj60. No doubt, the Chevy 292 would also be nice, and easier to match up, but I would feel like I stopped a little short. The way I look at it, I will be combining one of the best 4x4s ever made with one of the best I6 engines ever made. So now I really need all your ideas and input. My first two questions: I am thinking EFI is the way to go. I also think it would be nice to use a 78 or 79 HD steel crank that Ford only made in those years as I understand it, if available and if it will fit the EFI engine. I do not have an engine, so any leads let me know, I am a little south of Dallas, Tx. Its great knowing that I have done my last 2f manifold gasket job and smog pump replacement on this rig! I will post pics as I go. Thanks for all the input. Also, how about tranydrivetrain suggestions?

Any progress to report?

 

[RockDoc]

https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/64744-5-0-40-a.html

Talk of Ford 302 and 351 Windsor swaps, same bolt pattern as the 300?

 

[chubbs_starlightloun]

It appears there needs to some explaining. This forum started about the ford 300 and that is what I offered information about. I know several rodders that hang in our shop that have the LC inline 6, or should I say had, until they swapped them out. I have assisted them on working on these vehicles, but I was never asked nor did say that I was an expert on the LC 6. I know what they tell me. I am happy with my American made 6s.
To answer the Clifford reference. I have and older Clifford catalogue that has listings for parts for the LC 6. I called and ordered a new catalogue and was informed that they no longer offer these parts due to lack of interest. My fault for not keeping up with current info. If you are interested in American made 6s, may I suggest the Ford 300 if you want both torque and power. The Ford 240 has a shorter deck, less torque, but like its bigger brother, can be built for streetable power. If you are feeling cocky and want a challenge, next would be the 225 slant 6. Bullet proof, totally buildable, but a challenge to adapt to anything other than another Mopar. If you prefer Chevy, the 292 does not live up to expectations and can be a major pain to just deal with. Most people replace the 292 with the 305 V8, if that tells you anything. If you want a chevy, do the old 235. Totally buildable and very bullet proof. I have two of these and would not trade them for anything. If anyone wants to know what I have learned about the Lc 6 in the past two days is this: there were a lot of variations with there own inherent problems due mostly to the assembly line mentality that can fixed by swaping in a better engine. The choice as to which is up to you. We are not afraid of machining and welding and if that is what it takes to be happy in your hobby, that is what it takes.
Be happy and above all, be safe.

 

[Mace]

Chubs, be aware that most places do not let you swap an older motor into a newer truck.

The 60 series started in the early 80's, so the later mostly fuel injected motors are the easiest swaps..


Just something to keep in mind. We do what we can with what we have....

 

[chubbs_starlightloun]

I feel your pain. I really mean that. Even though I am a veteran and proud of my country, we look for the loop holes that allow us to do what we want. After all this a free country. But I do understand the local laws. But that never stops us from trying.
A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do. Just have fun and be safe.
Dont let the man tell you what to drive.

 

[Root Moose]

Chubbs,

Sorry to go off topic, Jeep owner looking to upgrade to TLC when more kids arrive.

What is your take on the AMC/Jeep 4.2 and 4.0?

It's not a swap option for a TLC so maybe we should go to PM but I'm sure that there are other lurkers that would have a casual interest as well - may lead to ideas directly applicable to the 2F/3FE.

In my case I'm really trying to fight the urge to replace the 4.0 (MY01) with a modern GM Vortec when the time comes. I'm sure there are TLC people with the same internal monologue going on (build L6, any L6 vs V8 swap). There's also the Vortec L5 in the Hummer H3 for a modern interpretation of the inline engine I suppose.

 

[NMFJ60]

Hey Chubbs, appreciate your words of wisdom regarding I6s. There are many good reasons to go with an 8, but I also like the idea of keeping an I6 in my 60 for three reasons: the Granville King “drive with elegance” needs the low RPM torque peak that an undersquare engine provides, plus keep it an I6 as Toyota intended, and finally, anyone can swap a V8 so show some Chutzpah and go I6.
That said I’m torn between going old school versus new school, for old school I was thinking 292 but you have pretty well convinced me that the 300 is a better way to go. One other thought, however, while they are getting harder to find how about the GMC 270?
On the new school side, has anyone considered or done a GM Vortec 4.2 swap? Yea, I know a challenge, but 270 HP and 275 lb-ft torque (supposedly 90% available from 1600 – 5600 RPM) and clean emissions make it worth considering . . .