Any European owners here?

[RockDriver]

I've noticed that most LC owners, especially the 100 series are either in USA or Australia. Not much activity from European market considering it is far larger than those two put together. I've been filtering listings and prices of LC100s (4.2 diesel) in Europe are through the roof too compared to USA and Australia, which is highly annoying. There's a whole bunch of them registered as 2-seaters with all seats but the front ones ripped out, because apparently in some countries that's a major tax discount or something. Whenever there's something worth looking at pops up in the ads it usually goes within a day. I'm hunting for a facelift 5 speed auto one and their price range is within range of 200 series.

So yeah, curious to know what's up with LC100s in Europe - have they already entered classic car status and the prices are now rising instead of falling or something like that?

 

[hoser]

Here are the LC Wagon Sales Worldwide for 2006. (LX not included)

Country/Sales/Percentage of Total
N. America 3605 4.36%
CS America 2519 3.05%
Europe 13405 16.21%
Africa 6781 8.20%
China 2793 3.38%
Asia 589 0.71%
Oceania (Aus) 9660 11.68%
Middle East 38831 46.96%
Japan 4,501 5.44%

I think the high activity of these forums is largely due to the ability to modify these vehicles. The way I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, the majority of Europe doesn't allow heavy vehicle modifications. In the US, you can mod as much as your wallet desires. There may be laws against it but for the most part, they aren't enforced.

 

[MongooseGA]

Yeah not like those commie Australians and their 2- sizes tire laws!

Honestly I'm super impressed to see just how much more these were sold in the middle east. I knew it was a lot but holy crap I wouldn't have thought 10x!

 

[Exiled]

I think part of the challenge in Europe is the well established sales channel out of Europe into Africa, and the relative proximity. I bet a lot of those used Land Cruisers are heading out of the region. For example, there are a couple of US-based companies that have been quietly importing 80/70/100 series out of southern Europe (primarily Spain but also France and Belgium) into the US for the last 5-7 years. Diesel, LHD and limited rust are huge drivers and these vehicles usually command a premium over JDM or Australian Land Cruisers in the import market.

 

[RockDriver]

I think part of the challenge in Europe is the well established sales channel out of Europe into Africa, and the relative proximity. I bet a lot of those used Land Cruisers are heading out of the region. For example, there are a couple of US-based companies that have been quietly importing 80/70/100 series out of southern Europe (primarily Spain but also France and Belgium) into the US for the last 5-7 years. Diesel, LHD and limited rust are huge drivers and these vehicles usually command a premium over JDM or Australian Land Cruisers in the import market.

That is highly annoying, especially since Middle East is next door to Africa and apparently gets the absolute lion's share of LCs, so shouldn't they alone be able to supply Africa's second hand market? Also, where does Africa get the money anyway, I thought it's dirt poor?

Another danger for old LCs in Europe is the ever more strangling emissions regulations. If you buy an expensive diesel LC100 and the next day the city you live in decides to adopt London-style ULEZ (Ultra Low Emission Zone) - you are screwed seven ways to Sunday.

I'm torn between getting a 1998-2003 4 speed auto or waiting for a reasonably priced 5 speed auto facelift - but those usually go as soon as they appear.

 

[MongooseGA]

That is highly annoying, especially since Middle East is next door to Africa and apparently gets the absolute lion's share of LCs, so shouldn't they alone be able to supply Africa's second hand market? Also, where does Africa get the money anyway, I thought it's dirt poor?

Another danger for old LCs in Europe is the ever more strangling emissions regulations. If you buy an expensive diesel LC100 and the next day the city you live in decides to adopt London-style ULEZ (Ultra Low Emission Zone) - you are screwed seven ways to Sunday.

I'm torn between getting a 1998-2003 4 speed auto or waiting for a reasonably priced 5 speed auto facelift - but those usually go as soon as they appear.

Lots of Africa's economies are booming. Natural resources galore.

Also, China.

 

[keplerzet]

I've noticed that most LC owners, especially the 100 series are either in USA or Australia. Not much activity from European market considering it is far larger than those two put together. I've been filtering listings and prices of LC100s (4.2 diesel) in Europe are through the roof too compared to USA and Australia, which is highly annoying. There's a whole bunch of them registered as 2-seaters with all seats but the front ones ripped out, because apparently in some countries that's a major tax discount or something. Whenever there's something worth looking at pops up in the ads it usually goes within a day. I'm hunting for a facelift 5 speed auto one and their price range is within range of 200 series.

So yeah, curious to know what's up with LC100s in Europe - have they already entered classic car status and the prices are now rising instead of falling or something like that?

I can not comment on the official sales imports or etc., but from my experience, lately it has been very difficult to find a good deal on a HDJ100 (impossible for a HDJ80), mostly because of rust and how beyond repair some of them are. Not sure about NA, but most of Europe has its fair share of road salt. Importing a US UZJ100 is quite common now.

I would also note that there was a huge demand for used European SUVs, especially Land Cruisers, in russia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and so on. Most of the bordering EU countries would buy LCs from Central Europe and re-sell them to the neighbours in the East. Not sure about the scale, but this could be a factor.

 

[Exiled]

That is highly annoying, especially since Middle East is next door to Africa and apparently gets the absolute lion's share of LCs, so shouldn't they alone be able to supply Africa's second hand market? Also, where does Africa get the money anyway, I thought it's dirt poor?

Another danger for old LCs in Europe is the ever more strangling emissions regulations. If you buy an expensive diesel LC100 and the next day the city you live in decides to adopt London-style ULEZ (Ultra Low Emission Zone) - you are screwed seven ways to Sunday.

I'm torn between getting a 1998-2003 4 speed auto or waiting for a reasonably priced 5 speed auto facelift - but those usually go as soon as they appear.

Many African countries may be poor, but there are always people with money looking to score a Toyota Land Cruiser, especially a more "luxury" model that is considered a status symbol in those countries. And the specs of European Land Cruisers are desirable in countries that received lower trim levels.

 

[Viio]

I'm in Europe. Scotland to be precise. There's a commercial road tax band which allowed folks to get cheaper annual licence if they removed some seats and blocked out the windows at the back so it counted as a "van". I can't drive the LC into many cities now due to the Euro emissions band of 4 (not the required 6). My road tax increases 10-15% each year.

 

[MongooseGA]

I'm in Europe. Scotland to be precise. There's a commercial road tax band which allowed folks to get cheaper annual licence if they removed some seats and blocked out the windows at the back so it counted as a "van". I can't drive the LC into many cities now due to the Euro emissions band of 4 (not the required 6). My road tax increases 10-15% each year.

This was a roller coaster of interesting and then sadness.

I believe there would be a violent revolt if Europe's anti- gas laws made their way here any time soon.

 

[RockDriver]

I can not comment on the official sales imports or etc., but from my experience, lately it has been very difficult to find a good deal on a HDJ100 (impossible for a HDJ80), mostly because of rust and how beyond repair some of them are. Not sure about NA, but most of Europe has its fair share of road salt. Importing a US UZJ100 is quite common now.

I would also note that there was a huge demand for used European SUVs, especially Land Cruisers, in russia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and so on. Most of the bordering EU countries would buy LCs from Central Europe and re-sell them to the neighbours in the East. Not sure about the scale, but this could be a factor.

Well that's just depressing. The prices of those few that are still good condition are so high, that at that point it almost starts making more sense to look for a VDJ200.

I guess all I can do is to keep scanning the listings and hope something decent comes up, which it sometimes does, but then you have to react fast.

 

[Live to Ski]

geez, this is throwing cold water on my dreams of brining my cruiser over (spain) during wife's sebatical (if it happens). either will go bankrupt or it would be stollen

 

[RockDriver]

I'm in Europe. Scotland to be precise. There's a commercial road tax band which allowed folks to get cheaper annual licence if they removed some seats and blocked out the windows at the back so it counted as a "van". I can't drive the LC into many cities now due to the Euro emissions band of 4 (not the required 6). My road tax increases 10-15% each year.

Yeah, I noticed that certain countries in Europe do this and mobile.de is littered with these 2 seat LCs. It's so annoying, I wonder how big of a hassle would it be to re-install the rear seats and register the car as a 5 seater. Probably quite expensive and not worth it.

 

[keplerzet]

Yeah, I noticed that certain countries in Europe do this and mobile.de is littered with these 2 seat LCs. It's so annoying, I wonder how big of a hassle would it be to re-install the rear seats and register the car as a 5 seater. Probably quite expensive and not worth it.

Installing the seats is probably easy. The problem is that the actual mileage on cargo converted LCs is most likely 2 or 3 times higher than shown in the ad.

 

[RockDriver]

Installing the seats is probably easy. The problem is that the actual mileage on cargo converted LCs is most likely 2 or 3 times higher than shown in the ad.

Wait, what? Are you saying these so-called cargo LCs are heavily clocked even in Europe? Why specifically cargo versions and not the passenger ones?

 

[keplerzet]

Wait, what? Are you saying these so-called cargo LCs are heavily clocked even in Europe? Why specifically cargo versions and not the passenger ones?

I would think so. The converted ones were likely with their 2nd-3rd owner, bought for cheap and used for work. Then, as it got way harder to buy a proper 4x4, dealerships bought the ol' trucks and voila - you have a HDJ 100 with 225k km that looks like its been through hell.

My dad used to buy and sell a lot of Land Cruisers back in the day and I have them in many states, trust me this is not how a 290k km 100 series looks.

Ad for refference: https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/...d=d1209488-8344-f17c-920b-10fbe85ca46c&vc=Car

 

[RockDriver]

I would think so. The converted ones were likely with their 2nd-3rd owner, bought for cheap and used for work. Then, as it got way harder to buy a proper 4x4, dealerships bought the ol' trucks and voila - you have a HDJ 100 with 225k km that looks like its been through hell.

My dad used to buy and sell a lot of Land Cruisers back in the day and I have them in many states, trust me this is not how a 290k km 100 series looks.

Ad for refference: https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=408004091&dam=false&isSearchRequest=true&ms=24100;19;;&od=down&pageNumber=8&ref=srp&refId=d1209488-8344-f17c-920b-10fbe85ca46c&s=Car&sb=doc&searchId=d1209488-8344-f17c-920b-10fbe85ca46c&vc=Car

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I saw this listing before, that dealer does not seem to be reputable. They seem to buy up LCs and jack up the prices hoping for export, that would be my guess. I've seen some of those cars sitting on mobile.de for a very long time.

What about these?

AHC seems to be shot on this one, unclear just how big of a hassle to repair, but probably non-trivial since the dealer didn't do it himself:

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=400537413&cc=4000%3A&dam=false&fr=1998%3A&isSearchRequest=true&ms=24100%3B19%3B%3B&od=up&p=%3A12000&ref=srp&refId=9f8a4083-a91f-2a49-16b8-263140817350&s=Car&sb=p&searchId=9f8a4083-a91f-2a49-16b8-263140817350&vc=Car&lang=en

Mileage may be true on this one, as it's not low at all. Dealer seems to have poor rep though: https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=392190947&cc=4000:&dam=false&fr=1998:&isSearchRequest=true&ms=24100;19;;&od=up&p=:12000&ref=srp&refId=9f8a4083-a91f-2a49-16b8-263140817350&s=Car&sb=p&searchId=9f8a4083-a91f-2a49-16b8-263140817350&vc=Car&lang=en

Also, for someone who has seen a fair share of LCs - do you have an idea how big of a hassle is to reinstall the rear bench seat? Is the seat difficult to find and/or expensive? I found this one which doesn't seem too bad: Toyota Land Cruiser 4.2 150kW - https://eng.auto24.lv/vehicles/4027913

Would it be worth getting a beater and restoring it? https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/...d=9f8a4083-a91f-2a49-16b8-263140817350&vc=Car

 

[keplerzet]

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I saw this listing before, that dealer does not seem to be reputable. They seem to buy up LCs and jack up the prices hoping for export, that would be my guess. I've seen some of those cars sitting on mobile.de for a very long time.

What about these?

AHC seems to be shot on this one, unclear just how big of a hassle to repair, but probably non-trivial since the dealer didn't do it himself:

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=400537413&cc=4000%3A&dam=false&fr=1998%3A&isSearchRequest=true&ms=24100%3B19%3B%3B&od=up&p=%3A12000&ref=srp&refId=9f8a4083-a91f-2a49-16b8-263140817350&s=Car&sb=p&searchId=9f8a4083-a91f-2a49-16b8-263140817350&vc=Car&lang=en

Mileage may be true on this one, as it's not low at all. Dealer seems to have poor rep though: https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=392190947&cc=4000:&dam=false&fr=1998:&isSearchRequest=true&ms=24100;19;;&od=up&p=:12000&ref=srp&refId=9f8a4083-a91f-2a49-16b8-263140817350&s=Car&sb=p&searchId=9f8a4083-a91f-2a49-16b8-263140817350&vc=Car&lang=en

Also, for someone who has seen a fair share of LCs - do you have an idea how big of a hassle is to reinstall the rear bench seat? Is the seat difficult to find and/or expensive? I found this one which doesn't seem too bad: Toyota Land Cruiser 4.2 150kW - https://eng.auto24.lv/vehicles/4027913

Would it be worth getting a beater and restoring it? https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=408276152&cc=4000:&dam=false&fr=1998:&isSearchRequest=true&ms=24100;19;;&od=up&p=:12000&ref=srp&refId=9f8a4083-a91f-2a49-16b8-263140817350&s=Car&sb=p&searchId=9f8a4083-a91f-2a49-16b8-263140817350&vc=Car

IMO, health of the underbody and the frame is the most important.
AHC, Engine, Transmission etc. is fixable and rebuildable, but it will not be worth the investment (not the cheapest truck to fix), if the frame rots through over the years.

The cargo tray could be attached to existing mounting points, so the hardware aspect could be simple. The legal aspect of re-converting it to a passenger car really depends on where you're from. In Lithuania it may be complex, but its doable.

And getting the seats - no idea about how difficult is to find them, but often times sellers want to sell the full interior, rather than part by part.

 

[hoser]

This one originally came with a 3rd row and so putting one back in should just be a bolt in affair... if you can find all the parts including the seat belts.

 

[Paddler Ed]

It also depends on what has been done to the mounting hole threads; have they been drilled through and then welded up afterwards, or is there just a bolt in there welded to the body.

I think for the UK and Ireland (where they commercialised quite a few of the 90 and 120 series, as well as various Land Rovers) the rear mountings were destroyed permanently so they couldn't be returned to being a wagon.