Any buyer's remorse after getting the new 250?

[Noctilucent]

This is true.

But it's also true that, for US Land Cruiser consumers, the light duty 250 necessarily replaces a long lineage of heavier duty station wagons. This makes the flawed comparison somewhat inevitable. And it's a comparison that Toyota itself begged by marketing the 250 as "the return of a legend" in the US market.

For most use cases this won't matter; the 250 will be excellent. And in other ways it's a wash too; the 250's reduced capacities (like payload or cargo volume) continues a decades-long erosion of capacities within the station wagon lineage itself. Light duty or wagon, this is where things were headed.

Of course, Toyota is still force feeding the US market needless luxury bloat on the heavier duty station wagon. At least the 300 is now relegated to the Lexus badge; it's a more honest way to force feed that bloat than what we saw with the market failure that was the 200 series.

Well, the light-duty Land Cruiser, the GX, was pretty much our only option in the USA for the longest time. Anyway, I guess now it’s the Station Wagon fans' turn to only have a Lexus option for their Station Wagon.

 

[CBB]

Edit - Delete

 

[Zill]

Was reading the last few pages and going to call for peace but then I see this is the latest post.

The 250 is a significantly cheaper product than the 200 series from 5+ years ago. Clearly there must have been compromises to achieve that. I doubt anyone is confused on this point. Whether the 250 is a “real” Land Cruiser or not doesn’t really concern me. What does concern me is declining quality. Now you could make an argument that the differences in the video above will not be noticed by 99% of use cases, but when I survey the landscape to see what’s out there should anything happen to my 200, I really don’t see anything that constitutes an upgrade.

Also reminds me of this video, which ironically almost ends up as a celebration of just what makes the 200 and 570 so special.

We definitely knew about the 250 only getting the 8.2” rear axle housing compared to the GX and the LX getting the 9.5” housing.

The real question is, have there been any failures associated with the new 8.2” housing yet? Do you really need the heavier 9.5” if the 8.2” does the job?

Adding weight creates other unintended consequences, and car manufacturing is all about compromises.

 

[2021 LC200]

Basically when a V6 Honda reaches cruising speed, the ECU begins measuring the engine temperature, and when it reaches the 'ideal' temperature, it goes into ECO mode. There is a thermostat on either side of the engine in the wiring harness. So someone made an inline resistor so the Pilot would never reach the ideal operating temp, and thus never go into ECO mode. Looks stock and no one from Honda who saw it batted an eye. Basically this is a known Honda secret at the dealerships. BUT if you buy a used Honda you never know how close it is to the misfire. Every time I see a Pilot, I try to educate the owner about it.

With this aftermarket fix I believe the 2024 Honda Pilot trail version at $51k (as offered by many dealers at $4k below MRSP) is a serious alternative for a light duty SUV.

 

[Rednexus]

With this aftermarket fix I believe the 2024 Honda Pilot trail version at $51k (as offered by many dealers at $4k below MRSP) is a serious alternative for a light duty SUV.

Just TBH - from my experience in having Subarus before - and currently owning a Highlander Hybrid that is pretty similar to that Pilot - there is a huge difference in the off-road capability and robustness of a crossover platform like a Pilot that employs unibody construction, a transverse-mounted engine, a FWD-biased AWD system, and lacks a low range TC - and any Toyota SUV with a ladder frame, longitudinal-mounted engine, low-range transfer case, and solid rear axle.

Even a "light duty" Land Cruiser like my 120 with an 8" rear differential is substantially more robust than a crossover platform. I think this would be obvious is one crawled underneath a Pilot and then crawled underneath any Toyota BOF SUV. IMO, out of the crossovers the Subaru platform is inherently better than the FWD-based platforms as it's a "true" AWD platform - longitudinal engine - and is not as front-biased like the transverse Honda platform. The transverse platform alone makes me not take the Honda seriously as an off-roader.

Additionally, IRS crossovers typically have very poor flex, and a SRA Toyota will pretty significantly out-flex them. I often got 1 or 2 wheels up in the air in our old Subies, which made it tough to wheel (it still was fun though).

I don't mean to knock a Pilot Trail - or a Subaru - as I wheeled in crossover style vehicles for a long time. And we have the Highlander and it's a great vehicle that's well optimized for family hauling on pavement. But, they aren't on the same planet in terms of off-road durability as any Toyota BOF SUV. They are fine for taking a gravel road and occasionally a rutted one to a trailhead or camping spot, but after that they hit a brick wall in vehicle capability and you start ripping off plastic body panels or dragging.

 

[hoot504]

The 200 Series is a Station Wagon Land Cruiser, while the 250 is a Light-Duty Land Cruiser two tools designed for different jobs. Comparing them is fundamentally flawed. The 200 should be compared to other Station Wagons, like the 300, not a light-duty Land Cruiser.

At the end of the day, one’s a light-duty Land Cruiser, and the other is a Station Wagon. Seeing smaller or lighter components on the 250 shouldn’t be surprising it’s purpose-built for lighter use. The quality hasn’t declined. it’s just engineered differently for its role as a Light Duty Land Cruiser.

There aren’t “compromises” here just design decisions made for a light-duty LC, not a Station Wagon ''muh real'' LC.

You see “two tools designed for different jobs”. I see a product designed to sell as many units as possible, even if it’s inferior to what came before. The market didn’t support an overbuilt $90k Toyota, so let’s give them something else. Now I’m not suggesting a company work against its’ own self interest but I don’t have to swallow the marketing bull**** this eagerly.

The proof will be 5-10-15 years down the line. Let’s see how the 250 holds up. Or if any other players enter the market in the interim. Friend of mine who’s a diehard LC fan just upgraded his 100 series. Know what he bought? A grenadier.

 

[185]

With this aftermarket fix I believe the 2024 Honda Pilot trail version at $51k (as offered by many dealers at $4k below MRSP) is a serious alternative for a light duty SUV.

Their is a reason why the current defender is not a BOF, and this was shown publicly. But I digress

 

[2021 LC200]

Just TBH - from my experience in having Subarus before - and currently owning a Highlander Hybrid that is pretty similar to that Pilot - there is a huge difference in the off-road capability and robustness of a crossover platform like a Pilot that employs unibody construction, a transverse-mounted engine, a FWD-biased AWD system, and lacks a low range TC - and any Toyota SUV with a ladder frame, longitudinal-mounted engine, low-range transfer case, and solid rear axle.

Even a "light duty" Land Cruiser like my 120 with an 8" rear differential is substantially more robust than a crossover platform. I think this would be obvious is one crawled underneath a Pilot and then crawled underneath any Toyota BOF SUV. IMO, out of the crossovers the Subaru platform is inherently better than the FWD-based platforms as it's a "true" AWD platform - longitudinal engine - and is not as front-biased like the transverse Honda platform. The transverse platform alone makes me not take the Honda seriously as an off-roader.

Additionally, IRS crossovers typically have very poor flex, and a SRA Toyota will pretty significantly out-flex them. I often got 1 or 2 wheels up in the air in our old Subies, which made it tough to wheel (it still was fun though).

I don't mean to knock a Pilot Trail - or a Subaru - as I wheeled in crossover style vehicles for a long time. And we have the Highlander and it's a great vehicle that's well optimized for family hauling on pavement. But, they aren't on the same planet in terms of off-road durability as any Toyota BOF SUV. They are fine for taking a gravel road and occasionally a rutted one to a trailhead or camping spot, but after that they hit a brick wall in vehicle capability and you start ripping off plastic body panels or dragging.

As often our views are not same. I see a camp who wants real durable, strong and capable off roaders, from what I see Toyota has not created that with the 250 and then there are those who only every now and then go on a trail overland style and I can see the Pilot Trail being a real serious alternative to a 250.

Now for off roading and flexing there are many previous gen Toyota’s who fit that bill better and purchased now will be a better value for money deal.

 

[OSS]

It would be a lot easier if none of the vehicles had names. Then prospective buyers could choose one of the Toyota models that had the features they want.
Easy.

 

[Rednexus]

As often our views are not same. I see a camp who wants real durable, strong and capable off roaders, from what I see Toyota has not created with the 250 and then there are those who only every now and then go on a trail overland style and I can see the Pilot Trail being a real serious alternative to a 250.

From having off-roaded with multiple Subarus and owning a "light duty" LC with weaker parts than a 250, the 250 will be vastly more durable off-road than any crossover vehicle, in addition to being much easier to modify for more capability. If you wanted a Pilot or Subaru for a occasional camping/fishing trip and don't plan to "wheel", yes they will totally fit the bill and be a reliable vehicle doing it. As my 2000 Forester and our 2014 Outback did for us for a long time. But, they'll be an order of magnitude less capable, more damage-prone, and more apt to leave you stranded with sidewall punctures and other failures when the conditions are more than a rutted dirt road (e.g., good for car camping, not "overlanding").

IMO....they aren't really two vehicles that should be cross-shopped as they serve vastly different purposes. A 250 should be cross-shopped with the Wrangler, Bronco, Defender and other Toyota/Lexus offerings. The Pilot should be cross-shopped with other crossover vehicles (Outback/Ascent, similar offerings from other manufacturers).

 

[2021 LC200]

The 200 Series is a Station Wagon Land Cruiser, while the 250 is a Light-Duty Land Cruiser two tools designed for different jobs. Comparing them is fundamentally flawed. The 200 should be compared to other Station Wagons, like the 300, not a light-duty Land Cruiser.

At the end of the day, one’s a light-duty Land Cruiser, and the other is a Station Wagon. Seeing smaller or lighter components on the 250 shouldn’t be surprising it’s purpose-built for lighter use. The quality hasn’t declined. it’s just engineered differently for its role as a Light Duty Land Cruiser.

There aren’t “compromises” here just design decisions made for a light-duty LC, not a Station Wagon ''muh real'' LC.

You label things in your mind however that is not a global perspective so keep digging dude.

 

[Noctilucent]

You label things in your mind however that is not a global perspective so keep digging dude.

 

[Jeremy556]

We definitely knew about the 250 only getting the 8.2” rear axle housing compared to the GX and the LX getting the 9.5” housing.

The real question is, have there been any failures associated with the new 8.2” housing yet? Do you really need the heavier 9.5” if the 8.2” does the job?

Adding weight creates other unintended consequences, and car manufacturing is all about compromises.

Dissent broke theirs. Granted, its got portals and 40s. They broke the locker mechanism, axle shaft, and squished a rear UCA axle side mount.

 

[tacoshawn]

Dissent broke theirs. Granted, its got portals and 40s. They broke the locker mechanism, axle shaft, and squished a rear UCA axle side mount.

In other words, seems plenty strong from the factory for 99.98% of the use and build cases. And, for those 0.02% that is a small price to pay for a modern vehicle with ton’s of comfort that can actually be built to this much of an extreme.

Running 38’s on a factory driveline without regear is abuse straight up, then to go hardcore off road it and not snap the tie rods/steering rack/driveshaft or fry the transmission is pretty amazing and speaks to the engineering that went into the vehicle design.

‘We bury our ignorance in metal.’. Professor Charles Mischke (Iowa State). It seems Toyota removed ignorance and metal at least for the extreme build out of the 250.

 

[hoot504]

View attachment 3777922

Hard to contend with this rock solid argument.

 

[Zill]

Dissent broke theirs. Granted, its got portals and 40s. They broke the locker mechanism, axle shaft, and squished a rear UCA axle side mount.

Yeah, that’s apples and oranges by that point. If you are modifying a vehicle to that extent, then I would expect any stock components to suffer from that abuse.

 

[LCOceans]

The Dissent thing was interesting. I am hoping he offers a more detailed explanation of what happened. I feel those mods were extreme and it sounded like the portal caused the damage that led to a chain reaction of issues.

 

[lcgeek]

It would be a lot easier if none of the vehicles had names. Then prospective buyers could choose one of the Toyota models that had the features they want.
Easy.

I like this concept but it sure wouldn't work for those in this thread, who shall remain unnamed, who appear to buy only for the name.

 

[Specialeyes]

Of course, Toyota is still force feeding the US market needless luxury bloat

This is highlighted well in Tinkerer’s latest video comparing the 4th and 3rd gen Tacoma TRD Off Roads. If you option out things like ventilated seats, fancy cameras, powered tailgates, and Bluetooth speakers you can purchase a substantially cheaper truck that is just as capable. However the luxury bloat thing has become the new standard across the entire automotive landscape. It’s so hard to find a poverty spec, stripper model of anything on a dealer’s lot nowadays.

 

[Specialeyes]

Their is a reason why the current defender is not a BOF, and this was shown publicly. But I digress

Some mud members are really going to lose their minds when Toyota launches this for real in another 10 to 15 years.