another what's that noise thread (whining only under high load)

[beejay42]

So, if I run at low RPM's in a gear (especially 3r or 4th with a bit more speed) at high torque- or lugging along -I am getting a sort of whining/whirring/vibrating noise- so far it sounds like it is coming out of the back end- the diff maybe? Doesn't particularly sound like it is from the T-case, but I could be wrong. I have a rattling noise I think I have isolated to the clutch fork- and the whirring seems to be coming from further back than that.
This is a 82' BJ42. Full floating rear, H41...

The noise only occurs at the lower revs when it is lugging/struggling and dissapears when the revs go up a bit (i'd give numbers, but my taco doesn't work)

Recent work has been replacement of a bad hub, drum, and replacement of one axel shaft- and both rear bearings done. I had a little oil leaking out of the bad hub and maybe a little more lost from all the times of pulling both axels- but really it couldn't have been much.
However, either I was not aware of this noise before (doubtful) or it has started just after this work.

I have been searching and reading many of the threads in this section with 'noise' in the title, and some have been helpful.
one among many
https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/200911-diff-noise.html

but really, I don't know where to start.
From pulling the axel shafts, the diff oil was clean and clear (no water),

Do I check the T-case oil- magnetic plug....

Dunno,
any advice greatly appreciated.
It is not too annoying but I am a little worried it is an early warning of something more sinister...

Cheers,
Hans.

 

[Moe R]

Hey Bee

I have the same symptoms. I haven't had time to pull the rear prop shaft but I will do that first to rule out the rear diff. If there is no noise when u go for a ride u may have a problem there. I keep hoping mine will break so I know for sure what's wrong lol. What a PITA

 

[Moe R]

bumpy road

 

[andrewfarmer]

Checking all the fluid levels and condition is a good place to start...

 

[Pin_Head]

Checking the drain magnets is a good place to start. Whining is gear noise and it is often caused by bearing failure. Two possibilities are the pinion bearings in the differential and the idler gear bearings in the transfer case. You can often see bad pinon bearings as slop in the pinion. Anything other than rotation is bad.

 

[beejay42]

Thanks guys,
I've had probs with the computer (in for repairs now) so haven't been able to post.

I've got the day off tomorrow and will see what I can check and tinker with.
Today driving around the noise has been getting worse
It is there at just about all loads aside from purely coasting. I think I even noticed it under engine braking load...
I was almost expecting something to break or explode driving home today
Now it is home I do not want to drive it until I know what is going on- i've got tomorrow and saturday to tinker- but I need it for work next week. Oh the joys of forty series ownership

If I put my hand on the high/low/2-4 tranny shifter I can feel the vibration there. It could be coming up from the diff I suppose... dunno.

Of course all my manuals are on the laptop that is in for repair And having been through many Applecare repairs already, I am expecting 1-2 weeks before I get it back.
I guess I will have to find and download them again.

 

[beejay42]

Crossed posts with you Pin Head,
cheers for that,
thats a good place for me to start.

I'll probably be posting up some feedback tomorrow as I hopefully find some things out.

 

[Buckwheat]

Bearing howl

If it's from the rear end & under load, it's the pinion bearing. If coasting, the axle bearings. You can lift the rear end on jack stands, making sure you block the wheels, start it up & run it in gear, crawl under & listen through a piece of heater hose at the various bearings to nail it down. Having a friend gas it up a little helps to hear the noise sometimes, especially with the pinion, since it won't be loaded.

 

[beejay42]

Cheers Buckwheat,
from your description it is sounding like the pinion bearing. I have been a bit concerned that it might be the transfer case- as I had an issue with it a little while ago slipping out of 4wheel into 2wheel... thought I might have fixed that... maybe that was just the tip of something bigger.

it was pissing down rain most of today so it wasn't too appealing to be crawling under the car in the mud trying to figure out stuff (oh for a garage).
I bought some gear oil for the transfer case and for the diffs if I need it- and will be heading over to Dr Mcinnes tomorrow arv to have a tinker and see what can be discovered.

I'll fill in the details as they become clear.

 

[beejay42]

A few steps forward, and maybe a half dozen back again-

got some parts from Matts yesterday, a nice diff from a front axel with a good pinion bearing in it- my rear one was feeling a little worn anyway- a front tail-shaft (?) to replace my sloppy one...

Today I started pulling mine down.
Rear diff off first, a little gunk on the magnetic plug but nothing too bad- either way this diff is out and a new one going in.

as the oil was pretty old I decided I might as well change all the other fluids as well (should have done it when I bought it).
This where the headslapping begins.
I had previously checked the gear box oil but had managed to miss the separate transfer case oil-
Gear box oil- full and very clean, like I already knew.
Transfer case oil... black, burnt, and only about 1 cup in there
looks like I've found at least one of my problems- and probably the start of them all.
this was the gunk on the magnetic plug, lots of flakes of metal.

So, the transfer case has not leaked over a few drops in the few months of my ownership- thus since finally getting it on the road about a month ago I have driven it around 1000Km with virtually no oil in it- who knows how long the PO ran it like this.
Since this noise started last week, things have rapidly gotten worse. Harder vibration, new levels of noise.

What are the thoughts on whether I have killed the transfer case? What does it take to cook one of these?
I can't do the obvious and test it as it is now with oil in it until I get the diff back together- so I won't know just yet if the noise/vibration improves. Somehow I feel that because it was already running without oil in it this whole time, and then just recently the noise/vibration got worse, that the damage is done, and oil will only slightly mask the problems now caused.

Once I get it back together and run it for a couple of days I will drain the transfer case again to flush out all the gunk that must be running around in there.

Other than that I am now looking for a decent used transfer case.
Serves me right for not checking absolutely everything at the beginning.

 

[beejay42]

And, the question-
the pinion bearing that felt like it had play was the one on the diff end- this will be replaced simply by putting in a whole new diff- avoiding me having to do the whole bearing pre-tension thing on this end..

how does one go about doing the bearing (is this still called a pinion bearing?) on the transfer case side of the tail shaft?

When I bought the new bearings I got the smaller and the larger one for the front and the back of the shaft I think...

Now that it seems the problem was originating from the transfer case I would like to do that bearing as well.

I've been searching and reading, but am pretty confused- and finally the manual has finished downloading onto this computer so I will be reading that now.

Sorry bout the long rambling posts

 

[beejay42]

and a little kitchen floor parts porn (for those so inclined)

the diff that just came out- brown, slight wear marks (I don't know what to look for), some spots of corrosion and a few chips- but doesn't look too bad to these untrained eyes (comments?)

the one about to go in

both of them, old one with a round flange(?) on the right, new on the left.

and lesson-learn't of the day was how to break the seal of the diff that just does not want to budge- no matter how hard the BFH works on it- use a jack

 

[beejay42]

after many hours reading-
does this look like a situation of the oil seal failure between the transfer case and the tranny?
and did I read right somewhere that flakes of metal are likely to be from a bearing?

cheers.

 

[Buckwheat]

Ugly

Looks like PinHead was right about the possibilities for your noise source being a transfer bearing & why I suggested listening with the hose to nail it down, before rushing out to spend money you may not need to spend. That transfer case stuff looks ugly. You will definitely have to go through it as that bearing debris has got into everything. If the seal between the trans & transfer is bad - a possible reason the transfer is low if it's not leaking - it's in the transmission, too. You have to pull both unless you have the split-case transfer. There is no pinion gear in the transfer.

 

[beejay42]

Thanks Buckwheat-
don't worry about my money mate- (at least not at this point) I definitely needed the the front prop shaft, and I suspected I needed the rear diff- if this old one is still OK then I am more than happy to have a spare- with both front hubs locked there is a fair bit of play in my front one, so I will be checking that one out some time in the future when everything else is ironed out.
Mates rates prices haven't exactly broken the bank over this so far either

What is stupid of me is running this thing with no oil in the t-case. Checked the wrong hole- 'thinking' too far ahead of myself and made the problem worse. My very stupid bad.

Since filling yesterday the T-case hasn't leaked a drop (but is also hasn't been brought up to temp yet).
I am pretty sure I have the split case- is that oil seal between the T-case and the tranny only a problem for the non-split case ones?
The oil that came out of the gearbox was very clean- nothing like the T-case gunk stuck to the magnetic plug either.

If when I get the diff and all back together it runs OK (quiet enough) with oil in the T-case, then I am looking into getting another gearbox and T-case and attempting a re-build to then swap it in. If the oil doesn't help much and and it is as bad as it has been the last drive, then I will have to try to track down a T-case in better condition that I can just put in and use.

 

[amaurer]

If the TC/tranny seal is bad then the tranny would have been overfilled quite a bit when you checked it. If it wasn't, then the TC oil went somewhere else....

 

[andrewfarmer]

If you had metal flakes then at least one bearing has collapsed. Dont use the t/case at all - pull it and see what the damage is - it might be repairable.

And you can get a non-split case off the gearbox in place - it's just a bit fiddly

 

[beejay42]

amaurer, the tranny was not overfull- and so far from refilling yesterday, there appears to be no leak from the T-case.

Andrew, as far as I know- I have the split case- handbrake goes to the rear drums- 82' Australian BJ42 with H41... ? I would welcome any help in making certain of what I have.
If I do have the split- does that mean I have to drop the whole gearbox to get the t-case off?

So far I've got a line on another noisy T-case- plan would be with this one to grab it if it is cheap, and rebuild it while it is already out- and then swap it into mine.
I will also be looking around a bit more for a better replacement one that could go straight in...

This is my work car, and this is the busy season for me- so not being able to drive is a PITA right now. I can manage for a little while but I gotta get this happening asap.

Thanks fellas,

p.s. I am constantly searching and reading, but if anyone has any favourite links to threads here or elsewhere about pulling and rebuilding one of these then I am all ears.
Rebuild kits?
What sort of special tools will I need to get, etc..

 

[amaurer]

amaurer, the tranny was not overfull- and so far from refilling yesterday, there appears to be no leak from the T-case.

Well it may never have been serviced in the life of the truck, in that case slow leaks can go unnoticed. It could be leaking from somewhere really exotic though, like pumping oil up the speedo cable. In any case finding where a now useless TC leak from isn't really worth your time...

Andrew, as far as I know- I have the split case- handbrake goes to the rear drums- 82' Australian BJ42 with H41... ? I would welcome any help in making certain of what I have.

Yep, Splitcase.

If I do have the split- does that mean I have to drop the whole gearbox to get the t-case off?

Er, I though you could pull it with everything on the truck, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[beejay42]

thanks amaurer,

chances are the guy who has been driving around with no oil in the TC after checking the level through the Tranny is the one who is wrong about not being able to pull it off I am just guessing here. If I can pull the TC on its own then that is great.

So, a cooked tc is what I was thinking- I can't maintain much optimism about the prospects of rebuilding this one because of how long it potentially has run without oil. The dregs that were in there were like coffee syrup. Better to get a good donor to swap in- or at least another one with a better life history to rebuild... surely?
The other negative against this one is that it was grinding and slipping out of 4wd into 2wd last time I took it wheeling- I thought that was a linkage problem, I thought that was solved, but now it seems it could be a lot more.

anyway, another fella on 3rd rock might have a few leads on a TC, either his own very good one with a four speed off his turboed 3b(?)he wants to sell (to do an engine swap), or some others he thinks he can chase up if I need one sooner.

Aside from just working, I am pretty much sitting on my hands right now- and reading what I can about rebuilds. Had to order in some diff gaskets from toyota before I can see if this TC appreciates the oil and wants to run a little longer before replacement.

serious question is- with noise and vibrations, worsening, with a past of no oil, with flakes of bearing in there- what is the danger of running just a little more in this thing (considering I do not plan to re-build this one) ? Do they just get noisier? or is it going to seize on me and cause even more problems?
I am not talking about just driving this thing like normal again- I am talking the odd emergency for work when I cannot do it any other way- and driving out to pick up another TC and associated supplies? Doing this only for the time between now and finding a good donor or rebuilding a not so good donor...?

If seizing is an option- then I won't drive it at all and will put out the word that I need one pronto.
Cheers,
Hans.