Alignment issues or something else? (1 Viewer)

[afgman786]

Looking for help on getting to the root cause of my right hand pull. I feel the pull the most when engine is under load, very noticeable when towing compared to not since I don't stress the engine as much normal driving. I just got alignment done again after installing bumper hoping that extra weight on the front end might help the issue.

Questions/Thoughts:
1. Asked the dealer to dial in caster to around 3 since I've got the bumper now and push away from rear. Tech was having issues with driver side and couldn't get it lock in at 3.0, I did not have them mess with adjustment settings on the SPC but try and adjust within the setting it is at.
Could the extra 0.3* on driver side contribute to still have the right hand pull, also feeling it more now than before I went in.

2. Driver rear toe is up there, could the rear LCA affect rear toe? If so then I understand why one side is at -0.23*. Also the pull doesn't feel like the rear end is walking out but the front end is pulling right.

3. What should I have the dealer try since I still have pull? Is there other components I need to look at?

 

[rscoleman]

Did you recently install new tires of AT variety. If yes then swap left front and right front and go take a drive again. Oddly enough this worked for me. I had put on new Nitto Terra Grappler G2 factory size and had alignment. Everything was in spec but I had slight pull to right that was only worse if I was pulling my boat. Dealer swapped left to right front tires and all issues went away.

 

[afgman786]

Did you recently install new tires of AT variety. If yes then swap left front and right front and go take a drive again. Oddly enough this worked for me. I had put on new Nitto Terra Grappler G2 factory size and had alignment. Everything was in spec but I had slight pull to right that was only worse if I was pulling my boat. Dealer swapped left to right front tires and all issues went away.

So the issue has been going on for a while, it came up random to where I had no issues on same wheels and tires (KM3s with maybe 5K). Pulled a trailer beginning of one month with zero issues, 200 sat for the most part until towing same trailer and rig again over a month later and noticed serious pull to right under load. Swapped to stock wheels and tires same pull. Swapped the stock tires out for larger street biased ATs and less pull but still there. Got an alignment pre bumper install not much help and was hoping it was due to lack of weight of a bumper up front since I had the heavier springs. But after leaving dealer today and they did the alignment there is more pull to the right than when I went in.

This dealer has been good to me and took care of my daily that had alignment issues and found the problem. (That car was under warranty so I just kept giving it to them since it didn't cost me anything). I have no problem going to a specialty shop if needed, just trying to see if there is tell-tale info in the alignment sheet that I'm missing. But I might try swapping wheel left to right since that's easy enough sometime this week.

Only other thing I can think of that was done was replacing the coil isolator upfront from before having issues to there being issues.. @bloc you've mentioned control arm bushings can cause lean if torqued when not on the ground, you think that bind in the bushing could also cause pull too? I doubt the shop made that error but hoping it could be that simple.

 

[tbisaacs]

For what’s it’s worth — My STT pros mud terrains always pulled even after multiple alignments. They just didn’t track straight.

 

[tbisaacs]

Oh you swapped tires, that’s not it then.

 

[TeCKis300]

2. Driver rear toe is up there, could the rear LCA affect rear toe? If so then I understand why one side is at -0.23*. Also the pull doesn't feel like the rear end is walking out but the front end is pulling right.

View attachment 2614779

From what I can tell with the data, yes, it's the rear axle that's causing the pull. -.23 is definitely enough to notice, and the rear left tire is point outwards, causing the rear of the car to steer you to the right.

How much lift do you have?

The rear is not really adjustable and the alignment is largely built into the axle. Check your trailing arms. Any chance either of them have a bend?

 

[afgman786]

From what I can tell with the data, yes, it's the rear axle that's causing the pull. -.23 is definitely enough to notice, and the rear left tire is point outwards, causing the rear of the car to steer you to the right.

How much lift do you have?

The rear is not really adjustable and the alignment is largely built into the axle. Check your trailing arms. Any chance either of them have a bend?

The rear toe would feel as the front is pulling instead of rear walking out?

I'm almost positive the rear driver side being off so much has to do with my stupidity. When I was re-installing a new set of TT LCA skids, I thought I had made that mistake before having the issue with the pull under load become present, but maybe not. I was having issue getting the LCA to line up properly with the frame mounted hole and run the bolt thru. So I used a drill to open up the hole just a bit to get the bolt to go thru, making the hole a bit larger by a fraction seems to have made done that. I'll dbl check to make sure they aren't bent also. But I kept fighting the driver side and couldn't get the hole the bolt passes thru the trailing arm to line up with the factory hole so opened it up after fighting.

I'm the basic OME lift, front strut spacer, and 20mm trim packers in the rear. Hub to fender is 23.5" front and around 25" rear

 

[TeCKis300]

The rear toe would feel as the front is pulling instead of rear walking out?

I'm almost positive the rear driver side being off so much has to do with my stupidity. When I was re-installing a new set of TT LCA skids, I thought I had made that mistake before having the issue with the pull under load become present, but maybe not. I was having issue getting the LCA to line up properly with the frame mounted hole and run the bolt thru. So I used a drill to open up the hole just a bit to get the bolt to go thru, making the hole a bit larger by a fraction seems to have made done that. I'll dbl check to make sure they aren't bent also. But I kept fighting the driver side and couldn't get the hole the bolt passes thru the trailing arm to line up with the factory hole so opened it up after fighting.

I'm the basic OME lift, front strut spacer, and 20mm trim packers in the rear. Hub to fender is 23.5" front and around 25" rear

Driver rear tire pointing outwards, or probably should say the whole rear axle is pointing towards the driver. The rear axle thrust angle is steering the rear axle towards the driver. Since rear steer works in reverse, the perceived impact is that the car will steer towards passenger/right.

Very likely that hogging out that hole was enough to cause this. The fix can be trickier than it may seem. You'll need to get that trailing link re-centered in that mount hole. Though it's arguable if it will hold over time. Adjustable trailing links can also help fix this. But again, arguable if it will hold. Permanent fix would be to weld back material that centers that bolt properly.

 

[linuxgod]

FWIW I get a similar pull under heavy load. I notice it when towing if I floor it... bit of a pull to one side. If I straighten the truck under acceleration and then let off the gas it will pull the other way a bit (unsurprisingly since I'd compensated for the pull). Mine is not bad compared to when my caster was very low <2 degrees) but my OCD does not approve.

In general I believe you want a small amount of additional caster on the right and a bit less camber on the left. cross-caster/cross-camber, or something like that. the extra caster IIRC is to account for the road crown so you steering wheel isn't sitting at 11-11:30 all the time, and the reduced camber is so if you let off the steering wheel for a while (like if you fell asleep at the wheel) the vehicle will drift right instead of left into oncoming traffic. I'm no alignment guru however.

My alignment specs, for your reference/comparison. Sorry no info on the rear but I doubt my rear toe is out like yours.

 

[TLC2013]

Something to keep in mind, may not be related to the issue, is that there becomes a point when the rear is lifted “too much” that an adjustable panhard bar is necessary to recenter the axle. At 25” for your rear height it may be worth looking into. Most here seem to be between 22”-24”.

 

[drmwvr]

Not sure if this helps but here is my recent alignment on my ‘10 with a Bilstein 6112/5169 lift (with SPC UCAs and OME rear coils) performed by a Land Cruiser knowlegable shop. Tracks good with these numbers. I measure 23” at the rear. 21.5” at the front

 

[TeCKis300]

Driver rear tire pointing outwards, or probably should say the whole rear axle is pointing towards the driver. The rear axle thrust angle is steering the rear axle towards the driver. Since rear steer works in reverse, the perceived impact is that the car will steer towards passenger/right.

Very likely that hogging out that hole was enough to cause this. The fix can be trickier than it may seem. You'll need to get that trailing link re-centered in that mount hole. Though it's arguable if it will hold over time. Adjustable trailing links can also help fix this. But again, arguable if it will hold. Permanent fix would be to weld back material that centers that bolt properly.

Should caveat this and don't want to alarm you. This may not be to the degree that it warrants anything done.

Curious how much did you hog it out? Are we talking barely millimeters?

@linuxgod touched on something. Curious what your wheel offset is?

 

[afgman786]

Driver rear tire pointing outwards, or probably should say the whole rear axle is pointing towards the driver. The rear axle thrust angle is steering the rear axle towards the driver. Since rear steer works in reverse, the perceived impact is that the car will steer towards passenger/right.

Very likely that hogging out that hole was enough to cause this. The fix can be trickier than it may seem. You'll need to get that trailing link re-centered in that mount hole. Though it's arguable if it will hold over time. Adjustable trailing links can also help fix this. But again, arguable if it will hold. Permanent fix would be to weld back material that centers that bolt properly.

So I went back thru posts here and pictures and I don't think it has to do with the rear toe issue and here's why. I made that mistake in March, never had any issues when I pulled a trailer and 40 in Sept. Then after that tow in late Sept and early Oct the 2 changes I made to the 200 are I added the rear trim spacers(20mm) cause I was sagging when I towed and I had the front coil isolators replaced since the ones I got with my lift got eaten up for some reason. I personally did the rear trim packers, but had a LC shop near me that did my suspension install replace the front coil isolator. Now that I see those were the only 2 changes before towing the exact same setup again in late Oct and had the horrible pull when under load.

FWIW I get a similar pull under heavy load. I notice it when towing if I floor it... bit of a pull to one side. If I straighten the truck under acceleration and then let off the gas it will pull the other way a bit (unsurprisingly since I'd compensated for the pull). Mine is not bad compared to when my caster was very low <2 degrees) but my OCD does not approve.

In general I believe you want a small amount of additional caster on the right and a bit less camber on the left. cross-caster/cross-camber, or something like that. the extra caster IIRC is to account for the road crown so you steering wheel isn't sitting at 11-11:30 all the time, and the reduced camber is so if you let off the steering wheel for a while (like if you fell asleep at the wheel) the vehicle will drift right instead of left into oncoming traffic. I'm no alignment guru however.

My alignment specs, for your reference/comparison. Sorry no info on the rear but I doubt my rear toe is out like yours.

View attachment 2614914

That's exactly the issue. When climbing a hill or passing I'd get crazy pull and compensate, but then when letting off the gas it was turning the other direction. It wasn't fun towing like that, the amount of sway I was causing myself was stupid. I wouldn't need to be at full throttle for this to happen, as low as 35-40% throttle and the pull was there.

 

[afgman786]

Should caveat this and don't want to alarm you. This may not be to the degree that it warrants anything done.

Curious how much did you hog it out? Are we talking barely millimeters?

@linuxgod touched on something. Curious what your wheel offset is?

I haven't mentioned anything about my wheel/tire set up such as offset or anything because that hasn't changed. I have been running 1.25 on RW for over a year now. The issue was never there, only with what I just responded to you about in my previous post.

edit: hogging out was millimeters

 

[linuxgod]

When I first did my lift I had a lot more height on the DS than the PS in the rear. My experience was a lot like yours - very squirrelly. When I swapped the rear springs so that my DS and PS rear were close to the same height, my issue decreased a lot (though not completely). I assumed mine had to do with CV angles (DS higher than PS with the rear springs swapped around) but I'm not totally sure if that was the case.

I assume you don't have a big lean going on, but if you did that would certainly map to my issue. I don't know your lift/setup offhand but the amount of lift in the rear might be part of the issue as well (i.e. not sure if my pull was more because of the lean or because one side of the rear was like 2.5"+ of lift).

I will be watching your thread to see if you are able to eliminate this completely.

BTW I'm on +25 offset wheels and 34" tires, but your symptoms I believe like mine hint at an issue with torque steer caused by CV angles, rear axle thrust angle, or something similar and not scrub radius.

 

[afgman786]

When I first did my lift I had a lot more height on the DS than the PS in the rear. My experience was a lot like yours - very squirrelly. When I swapped the rear springs so that my DS and PS rear were close to the same height, my issue decreased a lot (though not completely). I assumed mine had to do with CV angles (DS higher than PS with the rear springs swapped around) but I'm not totally sure if that was the case.

I assume you don't have a big lean going on, but if you did that would certainly map to my issue. I don't know your lift/setup offhand but the amount of lift in the rear might be part of the issue as well (i.e. not sure if my pull was more because of the lean or because one side of the rear was like 2.5"+ of lift).

I will be watching your thread to see if you are able to eliminate this completely.

BTW I'm on +25 offset wheels and 34" tires, but your symptoms I believe like mine hint at an issue with torque steer caused by CV angles, rear axle thrust angle, or something similar and not scrub radius.

I'll measure again today and see what the difference is side to side, but I believe it was only .5" and maybe 1-1.5" front to back. I hope you're right about the rear height being an issue, but I would assume when I tow it would correct since the rear sags making the rig level front to rear. But the only changes that directly corelate to when this issue became noticeable was the rear trim packers to give me some rake back and replacing my beat up coil isolators.. otherwise my mods had been there and there wasn't an issue.

When I had this similar issue on my daily, the root cause of that ended up being steering stabilizer bushings. I haven't seen anything on here about someone replacing KDSS bushings to fix an issue like this, but maybe that's a place to start?

 

[CharlieS]

What's a coil isolator?

 

[afgman786]

What's a coil isolator?

It was a rubber ring almost like a trim packer that went over the coils for the front. Isolates the metal coil from hitting the metal of the top hat from my understanding. I know what it looks like and where it goes, and think that's what it's supposed to do from my conversation with @cruiseroutfit . They hooked me up with my OME and sent me a replacement when mine failed.

 

[TeCKis300]

BTW I'm on +25 offset wheels and 34" tires, but your symptoms I believe like mine hint at an issue with torque steer caused by CV angles, rear axle thrust angle, or something similar and not scrub radius.

On the face, it may not seem like it is. But it's a contributor, or arguably one of the root issues. Can you work around it to minimize it's effects, yes. Fundamentally, offset and scrub radius geometry problems can create opportunities for other issues to magnify steering pull/push.

@linuxgod - you're on +25 and 34" tires (optimal is +40 offset, or 15mm diff). If I'm not mistaken, @afgman786 is on +18 and 32.7" tires (optimal is +40 offset, or 22mm diff). It's a a more aggressive setup and geometry disparity, which has more vulnerability to these types of issues. Yeah, it's possible to isolate and minimize if he can pinpoint other causal issues.

Anecdotally, I noticed mild scrub radius pull/push on +35 offset and 33.2" tires (optimal +43, or 8mm diff) in extreme uphill full throttle pulls. Now with 34.5" tires and +35offset, which puts it perfectly on point, there is no pulling to speak of.

 

[CharlieS]

Thanks for explaining - I learn something new every day!