Adding oil to fuel (1 Viewer)

[70sguy]

Ok, fair enough.....but you are assuming that the diesel engine is burning (and coking) the very small amount of 2 stroke oil the same way that the weedwacker in your picture is. The 2 stroke oil added to diesel fuel gets injected in a pretty controlled manner.
Small 2 strokes are often used for short bursts, often get the crap rev'ed out em cold, and the often haphazardly mixed Fuel/oil mix gets atomized, dragged through the bottom end and then into the combustion chamber.

Not saying that anyone should run 2 stroke..
I will continue to use it when I don't have any B99 or other additive on hand.

 

[Garry]

Howe's.
Howes Lubricator: Products

Here in NZ we have a similar product called "Morey's". I have used it regularly in my HJ60 since they took the sulfur out of our fuel. Gives me more power and mpg Makes it run almost as good as it did on the old fuel IMO

 

[rockcrawler]

Of all the motors that I have seen with high deposits of coke they were all oil burners. You don't see that to a large degree with motors that are in good condition, mileage doesn't seem to come into it. So coke build up is related to the burning of oil from my observation. I'm talking any motor here, diesel, petrol, gas etc. The other thing is for a fuel/oil mixture to be effective in lubrication it needs to be a quite a bit higher than whats suggested to be used in diesels as an additive. You may get some lubrication but as to how effective this is... To me the bad outweighs any possible good. Just my opinion.

 

[Chang-kuao-lo]

Here in NZ we have a similar product called "Morey's". I have used it regularly in my HJ60 since they took the sulfur out of our fuel. Gives me more power and mpg Makes it run almost as good as it did on the old fuel IMO

Why waste time and money on guesswork-snakeoil, just use the stuff that was designed to supplement ULSD? besides, it's a good anti-gel for colder climes. I've been running the BJ74(not lately), the 240D, the BJ42, and the 3L pickup (all pre ULSD engines) and yet to have a IP problem or leak. Diesel truck fleets have been using howe's since the 1920's. And if it really worries you, sulphur supplements are available, "for non-highway use".

 

[rockcrawler]

I myself don't use any additive as I have never had a problem and haven't expected one. I have known that the only changes CAT did with the intro of low sulphur fuels was to fit a finer filter (2 microns) in the water separator, this taking care of the finest water droplets possible. If they can guarantee the life of a motor worth that of my house (or more) by using diesel straight from the supplier then I don't have a problem using it either. Really all you need to do is get the fuel from a reliable source and that you drain your tank of water every now and then. Fuel that is stored properly does not go bad. This is nothing new. In any case, I contacted a fuel specialist from BP Australia regarding todays diesels and he assured me that there is a lubrication additive already added (amongst other things) and that the additive performs just as well if not better than that of diesel fuel containing high sulphur. I dare say all major suppliers would be doing the same with their diesel as there are standards. If in doubt then contact your local supplier. This guy sent me a pdf outlining the major points and I am pasting it to this post.


Fuel News
Introduction

Impact of Reducing Sulphur in Diesel Fuel

The sulphur content of diesel fuel is being lowered to comply with National and international standards to improve air quality and to enable new technology engines to be introduced. The current sulphur content of diesel is less than 10 parts per million and has was introduced 1st January 2009. This will ensure that Australia will have diesel fuel of a quality consistent with international standards and will enable the import of latest technology low emission and high economy diesel engines from Europe and the United States. The Ultra low sulphur diesel will enable improvements in urban and workplace air quality by reducing diesel exhaust particulate emissions and reducing output of oxides of nitrogen which is linked to smog.

Low sulphur diesel fuel is made by refining crude types that are naturally low in sulphur or by further refining diesel fuel using a process called hydrofining which removes the sulphur, which is then used to make fertiliser.

Comparison with Australian Standard for Diesel Fuel 3570

Low sulphur diesel fuel meets all the requirements of the current Australian Standard for Diesel fuel. Properties such as cloud point, cetane, and distillation meet the requirements of the standard and are no different because the sulphur content has been reduced. In fact the process of removing sulphur will improve properties such as storage life. All diesel fuel sold in Australia must comply with the National Fuel Quality Standards of 2000, Diesel Determination of 2001.

Impact on Lubricity

Sulphur compounds in diesel fuel act as natural lubricants for fuel system components such as fuel pumps and injectors. Removing sulphur reduces the natural lubricity of the fuel. To ensure that this does not cause problems, lubricity is measured by additional testing during the manufacturing process. If lubricity does not meet accepted international standards then it is treated with an additive at the refinery. BP Low Sulphur Diesel fuel is tested to ensure that it always meets recognised international and manufacturers standards for diesel fuel lubricity as measured by the ASTM D 6079 High Frequency Reciprocating Rig.

Impact on Seals in Fuel Pumps

Seals and O rings in fuel pumps can react to fuels of different composition by swelling or shrinking. Changes in fuel composition happen due to changes in the manufacturing process to meet summer or winter requirements, due to different crude types being used and due to the refining processes used to remove sulphur. Fuel pumps on equipment more than 8 years old contain seals made of buta-n rubber that tends to harden with age and crack. The cracked seals tend to leak when diesel fuel composition changes, this is normal and means that the fuel pump needs maintenance. The solution is to replace the seals with new ones.

What will happen as ultra low sulphur diesel fuel is introduced?

For the majority of vehicles there will be no perceptible change except that exhaust smoke will be reduced, crankcase oil soot levels may also decline because less soot is being produced. Diesel fuel pump repairers may sometimes notice a grey deposit on fuel pump components; this will be the lubricity additive providing additional protection to the fuel pump. Not all additives produce the grey film.

Operators of some equipment more than 8 years old with rotary and CAV type pumps (vehicles and tractors) may notice some weeping of fuel around the pump body, this is an indication that the fuel pump seals are old and need to be replaced with new seals depending on how serious the leak. Operators with tractors with CAV pumps where there is a shaft seal between the engine crankcase and the fuel pump should check crankcase oil levels frequently. Any leakage of the crankcase seal will see oil levels rise.

When will zero sulphur diesel be introduced?

It has been recommended that from January 1st 2009 diesel fuel Australia wide should contain no sulphur. This fuel will contain no more than 10 part per million of sulphur as of this date. It is unlikely that Zero sulphur will be introduced in the near future.

Document: ADF2206.doc
Issued: January 5, 2009
Supercedes: February 10, 2005
BP Australia Limited A.C.N. 004 085 616

 

[roscoFJ73]

Impact on Lubricity

Sulphur compounds in diesel fuel act as natural lubricants for fuel system components such as fuel pumps and injectors. Removing sulphur reduces the natural lubricity of the fuel. To ensure that this does not cause problems, lubricity is measured by additional testing during the manufacturing process. If lubricity does not meet accepted international standards then it is treated with an additive at the refinery. BP Low Sulphur Diesel fuel is tested to ensure that it always meets recognised international and manufacturers standards for diesel fuel lubricity as measured by the ASTM D 6079 High Frequency Reciprocating Rig.




What will happen as ultra low sulphur diesel fuel is introduced?

For the majority of vehicles there will be no perceptible change except that exhaust smoke will be reduced, crankcase oil soot levels may also decline because less soot is being produced. Diesel fuel pump repairers may sometimes notice a grey deposit on fuel pump components; this will be the lubricity additive providing additional protection to the fuel pump. Not all additives produce the grey film.

So why throw unproven oils or additives in there?

 

[bigbrowndog]

Use a fuel conditioner that looks after the fuel and provides extra lubrication. There is a Toyota one here but I use Lucas as it stops bacteria and lubricates the pump [more important in a 1HZ rotary than the in line 2H pump] as I use a fair bit of drum fuel [44 gallon drums].
As for two stroke not really for me for sure [MHO].
Which two stroke oil? Outboard 2 stroke is different to mower/chainsaw oil. The oil for non water cooled two strokes is designed for quick starts with high revs then no run down, just shut off like weed eater, chainsaw. The outboard oil [TCW3] is designed to take high revs but with a slow shut down [usually extended idling and low speed use also].TCW3 gives less ash, better corrosion ,rust deposit protection and fights varnish also better wear protection .There is a big difference so some research is needed there. The best outboard oils are the new XD oils but they are expensive [eg XD50 for the new Etec Motors etc]

 

[Garry]

I've read all the governmental and oil company propaganda about the so called advantages of zero sulfur diesel many times. The new fuels may very well be suited to the modern computer managed engines, but not everyone is prepared or willing to own such vehicles. I used to get 600kms to a tank of the old fuel, but now lucky to get 500kms. My engine was fully reconditioned 50,000 kms ago and no adjustments were made to the fuel delivery rate during the 2 years the sulfur was phased out, but power and economy definatly suffered. I have no problem adding the Morey's additive to the fuel if it regains some of the lost comfort of that lovely sulfur. (I miss the smell too)

 

[Eric Winkworth]

I think you guys are being overly confident in thinking that 2-stroke oil doesn't leave carbon deposits, it does. Here's a pic of a 160cc mower motor I did a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately someone distracted me when I was about to take the "before" shot and I forgot to do so so can only show you the after shot.
The top vertical notch on the exhaust port was completely blocked with carbon (polished by piston so at a glance if you didn't know what the ex. port was supposed to look like you'd miss it), the main part of the port about 25% blocked. This stuff keeps building up until the motor refuses to start. Yes 2-strokes do run a much higher oil mix than what you guys would put in your diesels so you will have to do some math in determining amount of build up. Total run time on this motor is probably less then what you would do in a year in your cruisers. Having seen a few coked up 2-strokes I would never put that stuff in my tank.

Put a carboned up piston in a bucket with diesel in it.... give it a little shake and see what happens... We're talking 200 to 1 mixture also, and all of our engines create some pretty substantial EGT's... All of these engines used to run on sulfer diesel, theres been people on here running used motor oil in there 3b's with little to no ill effects.... the bottom line is something is better than nothing... I used to be all about the lucas fuel stabilizer, until I read an article that basically said it does nothing... a cup full of SVO is better then the vast majority of the approved diesel attitives... If there was a bio fuel station near me my tank would never see petro diesel again!

 

[rockcrawler]

Put a carboned up piston in a bucket with diesel in it.... give it a little shake and see what happens...

Well if the point you're trying to make with that had any relevance you would not have to put that carboned up piston in diesel in the first place, no? I will agree with you on aftermarket fuel additives though. The general consensus seems to be that "I have not had a problem since using it..." but when you ask them if they had a problem before using it then the answer is usually "no". I know a few people that swear by that stuff and put it in their tanks and other additives, additive for this and additive for that, it's a huge market and there will always be buyers. Not trying to knock anyone for using additives or even oil, just stating my 2c worth. On another note, just the other day I was reading some threads on some other forum and the opinion on there was that adding ULP to diesel improved performance and made diesels easier to start in cold climates... Interesting to note that the australian defense force does not use any additves in their diesels.

 

[jasonmt]

He said since Canada has just begun selling the low sulphur fuel it's more important than ever to keep things lubed up.

Seeing as how ULSD has been around for at least three years "just begun" is a bit of misinformation as well.

 

[bigbrowndog]

Put a carboned up piston in a bucket with diesel in it.... give it a little shake and see what happens... We're talking 200 to 1 mixture also, and all of our engines create some pretty substantial EGT's... All of these engines used to run on sulfer diesel, theres been people on here running used motor oil in there 3b's with little to no ill effects.... the bottom line is something is better than nothing... I used to be all about the lucas fuel stabilizer, until I read an article that basically said it does nothing... a cup full of SVO is better then the vast majority of the approved diesel attitives... If there was a bio fuel station near me my tank would never see petro diesel again!

Lucas , It sure stops the fuel in drums turning brown from bacteria here in the tropic.

 

[Tapage]

I used to had a white smoke cloud on cold ( for us ) mornings .. after start using the oil on my tans I never saw it again ..

 

[Eric Winkworth]

Well if the point you're trying to make with that had any relevance you would not have to put that carboned up piston in diesel in the first place, no? I will agree with you on aftermarket fuel additives though. The general consensus seems to be that "I have not had a problem since using it..." but when you ask them if they had a problem before using it then the answer is usually "no". I know a few people that swear by that stuff and put it in their tanks and other additives, additive for this and additive for that, it's a huge market and there will always be buyers. Not trying to knock anyone for using additives or even oil, just stating my 2c worth. On another note, just the other day I was reading some threads on some other forum and the opinion on there was that adding ULP to diesel improved performance and made diesels easier to start in cold climates... Interesting to note that the australian defense force does not use any additves in their diesels.

I was quoting the picture of the two stroke cylinder and piston (although now I notice the piston has no carbon on it) but usually when taking apart an old sled motor there will be a nice crust of carbon on the top of the pistons, and a quick easy way to clean it off is diesel fuel! Just saying most any crap you dump in your tank, petro diesel is going to purge it out, it cleans like varsol!

 

[Eric Winkworth]

Seeing as how ULSD has been around for at least three years "just begun" is a bit of misinformation as well.

Just begun isn't really misinformed when you figure the engine was designed and built 25 to 30 years ago!

 

[Bandit_guy]

I'm not usually a s*** disturber and I see I sparked quite a discussion, but I'm glad to be able to get everyone's opinions and experience about the subject. I'm thinking the only true way to get to the bottom of this would be a long term scientific study of what oil or additives do to help/deteriorate the engine and pump. That being said I also spoke to friend with a VW Jetta who used to run Jet fuel, jet B to be more precise, he would get from drums left behind by helicopter operators in the bush. To compensate for Jet fuel being way drier then diesel he would dump Varsol or two stroke engine oil in the tank with it and the Jetta ran for years in the Arctic without too much maintenance and no engine problems that could be related to fuel ever came up.

So I threw 250 ml of two stroke oil in with my last fill up, giving me a 200:1 mix and I'm not 100 % on this but I think the engine does run quieter. It might be my brain tricking me, I didn't get a DB meter to check I just listened while standing next to the truck after driving a few hundred km. There is no change in power that I could notice or any more or less smoke than before. I think I will try and get my hands on a bore scope and see if I can get it into the chamber and have a look.

 

[Eric Winkworth]

I definitaly think I can gear a difference, between no additives, 10% SVO and/or 200 to 1 bluemarble!

 

[rockcrawler]

Don't worry about it Bandit_guy, if we all had the same opinion on everything this world would be a boring place and there would not be much to discuss
Putting any sort of unproven additive in your diesel is a bit of a gamble. Engine manufacturers generally frown on it with some going as far as voiding warranties. Stuff that's available off the shelf mostly falls into the unproven category too as anyone one can come up with a concoction and put it on the market. Have you tried "rockcrawlers magic diesel fuel lube" yet? There have been cases of injector pumps shredding and the cause being traced back to an additive containing alcohol as an emulsifier. Similarly I had a circular from Cummins shown to me by a friend a while ago warning of the use of engine oil and 2 stroke oil in diesel fuel. It stated that their tests showed increased erosion in injectors and pumps with its use. Sorry but can't give you any reference to this but you may find it on the net somewhere. Remember that diesel injectors and pumps have been designed to run diesel not oil. As to the effectiveness of anti-bacterial agents in additives this is again not proven. Do your homework for real before dumping anything in your tank.