AltFuel '84 BJ60 3B WVO build up thread

[brownbear]

with your probe on the injector the temp at 25 degrees(running only diesel un heated) is because heat is tranferring from the head up the injector line. When it is running the cold diesel keeps it at 25 degrees. But I think the IP will be hot enough that some of the 25 degrees is from the warm oil in the IP. When your shut down the cool diesel is not flowing and taking away the heat from the head. Hence why it is hotter when you first turned it on.

When your running warmed veg oil I would like to hear the temp at this injector. My thinking is it might not be too much different. But lets hope it is.

 

[SurfPonto]

Awesome project.....especially since diesel is hitting close to $4.00 in California.

Bob

 

[joshoisasleep]

really cool MrMoMo... just followed all the way here through your other two older threads building up to this. Have learned a lot in the last 2 days!

Any chance of a simple diagram of your system?

Have you factored in a veg return-to-tank line/valve for purging, or are you planning on just burning it all up for a few minutes when switching back to diesel?


I'm really hopeful that I might be able to rig up a simple veggie system, and I think what I'm imagining is pretty close to what you're doing (going by what I've read so far).

 

[MrMoMo]

Man things go slow sometimes!! I have been away for two weeks and I am trying to catch things up... I have a backup of cubies in my garage and my processing barrel is full!! I just brought home another 45 Gallons of used oil!

I hope to get a bunch completed this weekend to get back on track. I am sick of paying for diesel!

I just discovered a good water test for veggie oil... Keep cubies in an area below freezing for a few weeks, if the bottom of the cubie is solid, it's water. Pour off the top and you have just seperated a whole bunch of water! (I think they rinsed the deep frier into this one!~!) It's nice to know that even at -20°C my oil is still easily a liquid.

 

[MrMoMo]

I think I'm gonna start a cubie farm...

Cubies in the closet on the warming pad (55W heating pad for a week)
Cubies in the garage waiting for the warming pad
Cubies in the 60 waiting to get un-loaded...

55 Gallons filtered to 100 Micron, waiting to filter into steel drum with heater (filter to 15 micron) to make room for the next run!

falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind falling behind!!!

 

[MrMoMo]

Any chance of a simple diagram of your system?

Yes, eventually!! I'll cad something up one of these days!

Have you factored in a veg return-to-tank line/valve for purging, or are you planning on just burning it all up for a few minutes when switching back to diesel?

I thought about it, but I'm going to keep it as simple as possible - I have a 6 port valve so I could do a return, but I think for now I just want to get up and running!

I'm really hopeful that I might be able to rig up a simple veggie system, and I think what I'm imagining is pretty close to what you're doing (going by what I've read so far).

That was my plan in the begining, what I found was I had to have all of the major pieces whether the system was big or small, I had at one time only planned on having the system under the hood. Short line runs, small tank, quick and easy install. Then I figured if I'm going to mess around with doing it I might as well go all out, and give myself a tank that will be big enough to do more than just drive for a few hours. (I do quite a bit of driving)

Like I said, if you have an interest, stay tuned. I don't plan on keeping any secrets!!

 

[M John Galt]

I just discovered a good water test for veggie oil... Keep cubies in an area below freezing for a few weeks, if the bottom of the cubie is solid, it's water. Pour off the top and you have just seperated a whole bunch of water!

Not just water. The frozen gunk in the bottom is PHO, transfats, animal fats, and the water that bonds to those contaminants.
Separating this out is the first and most important step to produce clear oil for filtering and drying then use as motor fuel.

 

[joshoisasleep]

Why are you using a 6 port?

I was just going to go with a 3 port... couldn't think of a use for the other 3...

 

[MrMoMo]

Not just water. The frozen gunk in the bottom is PHO, transfats, animal fats, and the water that bonds to those contaminants.
Separating this out is the first and most important step to produce clear oil for filtering and drying then use as motor fuel.

Agreed, seperating it out is most important - do you figure it is more separated by freezing it, or just letting it sit? This is the first and only cubie that I have had any seperation in, they all sit for about 4 weeks before I do anything with them, none so far have done anything like this one! There was still a layer of muck in the bottom of the oil, on top of the ice. Maybe it froze before it had a chance to settle through the water?

 

[M John Galt]

Agreed, seperating it out is most important - do you figure it is more separated by freezing it, or just letting it sit? This is the first and only cubie that I have had any seperation in, they all sit for about 4 weeks before I do anything with them, none so far have done anything like this one! There was still a layer of muck in the bottom of the oil, on top of the ice. Maybe it froze before it had a chance to settle through the water?

The water is the most dense and will stay on the bottom, the transfats, PHO and moisture saturated gunk will settle next, leaving the clear oil you want on the top. Freezing makes it easier to pour off the good clear oil.

 

[MrMoMo]

Why are you using a 6 port?

I was just going to go with a 3 port... couldn't think of a use for the other 3...

Just so happened to be what I got... I didn't need the 6 port. My one thought was to use it to allow the VO to return when not in use. (would require the use of a seperate pump) something like this...

 

[joshoisasleep]

Oh so you could add in a purge line and feed back the excess veggie when switching to diesel?
Would you worry about contaminating your veggie tank with diesel? I mean I don't see why it would be a problem anyway but?

 

[MrMoMo]

Oh so you could add in a purge line and feed back the excess veggie when switching to diesel?

Nope, but so I could have a continual loop of HOT veggie, so that I didn't have a cold spot leading from the filter to the valve. The line to the filter is heated, and the filter is heated, and with the way I have it now, the line to the valve and the valve will be heated so I'm not as concerned. Originally I had envisioned a cold spot between the heated filter and the valve. I didn't want to switch over to veggie and find that everything quit because I shot it full of cold oil. As I said though, it would require an electric pump to circulate the VO, which is more than I want to do at this point. I don't see this as a common feature so I think I can get by without it.

 

[MrMoMo]

Well hopefully this weekend sees a lot of change here... but lets start with some off vehicle playing. - worked a bit on the processing side of things tonight.

CPVC pipe & fittings, 3/4" glued together. Quick, simple and tidy. Goldenrod filter (15micron) Feed pipe stops about 4" from the bottom of the barrel.

Took more time in Canadian tire to figure out the bits I needed than it did to assemble it. Hose barb on the "out" side of the filter connects to garden hose end (good thing it's winter and I can raid the shed and cut up old hoses!) Garden hose goes to a drill pump, which goes to another section of garden hose, with a double hose barb to a short section of clear so I can see the beautiful oil...

 

[MrMoMo]

The rig set up and ready to go... just need barrel #2 set up and ready to go!!!

So.. oil comes up the CPVC tube, into the filter, down into the pump, and back into the barrel (for now) The drill pump works well at low speed, but seems to cavitate at higher speeds. I havn't tried spinning it FULL speed yet!! In the picture that shows the whole setup, the oil may appear to be cloudy, it worried me at first but then I saw that it was full of tiny little air bubbles - the close up shot was about a minute after, all the little bubbles worked their way out and the oil is nice and clear again. (phew!) This oil has NOT been de-watered yet (other than sitting in cubies for 4 weeks), only filtered -600, 400, 200, 100, 15 micron! Barrel #2 will be the de-watering barrel. **edit** This order will change in the future, I will filter into the de-watering barrel, then pump from it, into this one, and from this one into the vehicle... To start with I only had a plastic barrel and HAD to start some processing. The heated barrel is steel and will be insulated. **/edit**

My little helper is actually getting old enough and strong enough to become a helper! - watching from a safe distance on his little step ladder.

 

[MrMoMo]

Ok, so a slow weekend again, but any progress is progress I guess. I think my processing setup is done, I am still working out the bugs though...

Got the steel drum set up. Welded in a fitting for the heater element - with no ka-boom. I will NOT describe my welding process, if you decide to weld on a drum you do so at your own risk!

After welding it in I re-sprayed it with paint, installed the heater element and thermostat (opposite side of the barrel) then wrapped the whole thing with R4 bubble wrap insulation. Worked really nicely and I'm happy with the end product (so far!) I left holes in the insulation where the head of the heater element, and the head of the thermostat are for wiring - and because aluminum foil is conductive and I didn't want the whole barrel to be live!. Wired up the heater and thermostat and made sure that all the foil & the barrel are grounded, and there are no shorts between the heater and the drum or insulation. Covered the electrical connections with an insulating material and then foil taped over them. The only exposed part at this point is the set point of the thermostat.

Got the steel drum next to the plastic barrel, and set up to transfer with the drill pump.

 

[MrMoMo]

So after the first 10 minutes I decided that the drill pump sucked. It slowed down to a dribble and was really cavitating (lots of bubbles in the output) I figured you get what you pay for when you only spend $10. I think the problem was more that the oil was not really warm enough to be pumped through the filter and was clogging it. What I found was if I spun the pump in reverse for a second or two, (not really good for a flexible imeller pump but it was only $10 so why not...) then went back to forward the flow increased dramatically. I figure the revers flow was blowing all the filter clogging material off the filter and allowing it to flow again. Needless to say I blamed the pump, and found this nice electric version to take it's place. Much nicer to operate, and 12V so I can take it on the road later. Unfortunately it suffered from the same problem, so I guess I need to pump hot oil (which will be possible since it's in the right drum now).

So I made a bypass pickup, and put a Y valve (garden hose style) on the input to the pump. Now I can draw from a barrel without passing through the filter, and infact I can draw from anything without passing through the filter. I made this pickup exactly the same way I made the pickup for the filter, with the CPVC fittings and hose - I love that stuff - it's really easy to work with. As you can see, the 12V pump has enough suction to require proper suction hose, the clear vinyl that I was using is not working! I replaced that section with garden hose and it worked fine, but it was nice to be able to see the oil flowing through the pump input with no bubbles, and only bubbles in the output of the pump. Flattened the hose right out though! I was amazed at the amount of flow still coming through the squashed hose.

SO.. now I have a steel drum full of veggie oil that I am going to cook.

UN-fortunately, I didn't get a THING done on the Bj60 this weekend - but I guess you need to have the oil before you can run it.

Plant supervisor appears to have lost his white hardhat.

 

[MrMoMo]

Have to include this link for anyone who has not found it. I was just sent it by a friend.

The Fill Up For Free Straight Waste Vegetable Oil GreaseCar SVO / WVO Network

 

[MrMoMo]

OK so apparently more pre-filtering would be a good thing.

On a good note, it seems that I have no water in my oil - other than the frozen cubie. I did a few hot pan tests and the results were no water, none, zip, nada from the first sample, and less than a bubble per inch on the second sample (second sample was only filtered to 100 micron, 1st was to 10 micron)

Searching around for a better pre-filtering method I came across quite a few. The coolest by far that I have found (for the entire setup actually) is by our very own M John Galt

Have to post it:
Dewatering and Cleaning VO with Upflow Settling - Topic Powered by eve community

M John Galt - that is a brilliant setup. I take back every nasty comment I ever made about you.

I'm definately going to incorperate it into mine, it will be the pre-filter into my heated barrel - It just pumps nicer when it's thinned out!

First 55 Gallons now filtered down to 10 Micron!

 

[M John Galt]

Thanks for the positive feedback. The upflow settling could be easily added to the well designed system you've assembled. I adapted my cold upflow system from Ron Schroeder's heated upflow system. For a single tank cold blend fuel system the cold upflow filtering is best, for a heated two tank fuel system a heated upflow can be used as described here:

I have a trouble free settling system that gets me more than 1000 gallons thru a 2 micron Racor filter element.

My settling tank is very evenly heated and well insulated. I introduce the oil into the bottom of the tank slowly to not stir up the oil already in the tank. The outlet is about 6" from the TOP of the tank so I am only draining the top 10% of the oil in the tank. The outlet gravity flows thru the 2 micron filter into my storage tank. If I put 5 gallons into the tank a day, it takes over a week for that oil to work it's way up to the outlet. by that time almost all of the water and solids have settled out. I get over 1000 gallons thru the filtering station filter and I have NEVER had to replace an in the car WVO filter even after 70,000 miles on WVO.

I use a settling tank that has a little more capacity than the amount of oil I use in a week. With PHO Soy, I ran a little over 120F in the settling tank and about 80 in the storage tank (I am intentionally keeping the animal fat clear). With Canola, I am running about 100F.

No problems with polymerization.

I can heat it either with hot water from my boiler or with electricity. The tank is wrapped with PEX pipe with a spacing of about 3" turn to turn and is also wrapped with ice melt cable between the PEX turns.

The water loop is fed from a tempering valve so a constant water temperature is circulated around the settling tank. The circulating pump that I am using only draws 5 watts.

The electric heat is controlled by a proportional controller rather than an on/off controller. Once up to temperature, it takes less than 60 watts to maintain temperature. With good enough insulation a 60 to 80 foot ice melt cable will get you over 200F. That temperature will probably damage the cable. I have had no problems up to 150F.

Normally I just use the circulating hot water heat.

I also heat the incoming waste oil with an inline thermostatically controlled electric heater (like a 120V version of a veggietherm) to the same temperature as the tank so there is no temperature differential between the incoming oil and the oil already in the tank.

My in home filtering has been working so well that I used a stock fuel filter for WVO on my last WVO conversion ('85 MB 300D)


Ron
'85 300D
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Several generators
Kubota Tractor

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