80s noobie on the thread... (1 Viewer)

[andrewab]

Hi All - been an owner of a 1997 FZJ80 for about 3 years and finally getting on the forum. Cruiser has around 175k miles on it and has been running solid. Recently, towards the end of the cold winter here, the steering started getting really tight and it's groaning when it happens, which is pretty consistent now.

I brought it in to my local Toyota dealership to have them take a look at it. Their analysis floored me, saying that the gear assembly needed to be replaced and there's likely metal from failing steering gear or pump, recommended replacing the pitman arm, etc. More than $6k in parts! I've attached a list of what they recommended.

Honestly, I'm not really sure what to think. I've got another local (smaller) shop that I'm hoping to take it to later this week. Any thoughts for a cruiser novice who doesn't really have any mechanical experience? Is this type of issue typical with a cruiser of this age?

Any advice would be appreciated!

Andy

 

[OffRoadScott]

I would watch some videos on YouTube and see if you are comfortable doing the work. If not ask the smaller shop if you supply the parts what would the damage be.

Also, take those PN and check on either Amayama or Partsouq to see if you can order them and the price difference.

I looked up the steering gear and it is $2041.50 on partsouq

The dealers price is better on the power steering pump.

 

[andrewab]

Really appreciate this advice, thanks Scott. Will definitely utilize these sites to review some pricing through this process. Any experience with these types of issues before? Just trying to understand if it should be expected that these parts would be end of life at this point.

 

[OffRoadScott]

Really appreciate this advice, thanks Scott. Will definitely utilize these sites to review some pricing through this process. Any experience with these types of issues before? Just trying to understand if it should be expected that these parts would be end of life at this point.

The whining sound might be due to no fluid in the power steering reservoir. Check the level and use ATF, yes ATF it has cleaning properties that help the power steering system.

If there is no fluid follow the FSM steps as far as the proper bleeding of the power steering system.

 

[subzali]

First I’ve heard of an issue like that. You could send the steering box out to a rebuilder for way less than Toyota wants for a new one. I have a hard time believing that there would be metal in the system. Way more likely to be low on fluid or just need the fluid to be flushed.

But even if you wanted to buy the new Toyota part they are currently 25% off at Serra Toyota of Decatur which brings it to $3800 instead of $5400. But like I said I have a hard believing you need to go there.

 

[jpoole]

Recently, towards the end of the cold winter here, the steering started getting really tight and it's groaning when it happens, which is pretty consistent now.

What you wrote here makes it sound like this is an intermittent issue and that the noise and lower power don't happen all of the time, is that correct? If the power steering feels fine and runs quiet sometimes that is a relevant clue to the extent of the issues and what may be going on, etc.

A few possible causes to your symptoms:

• Old and contaminated fluid can have moisture in it, etc. and can fail to perform well in cold temps. This could be related to the issues you are seeing now or how some of them came about during the cold winter, maybe. If the fluid gets too thick due to it freezing with contaminants then it's not going to flow well, the pump will starve for fluid and cavitation (which wears the vanes/surfaces in the pump) etc. will cause groaning and low power and can do relevant damage to the pump pretty quickly.
• Leaks can allow air to get into the system which can then cause the fluid to froth up and absorb compression which causes a reduction in power and other issues in the pump as it tries to compress the air (also can cause cavitation and groaning at the pump).
• Clogging of the filter/screen in the fluid reservoir can restrict flow, starve the pump and cause groaning (cavitation) and lower power.

If it were mine I'd of course start with a close inspection of the system but my expectations are that my next steps would be to do the following, on my own, at home:

• Drain fluid from the reservoir and clean the filter/screen to make sure that fluid can flow properly.
• Do a full fluid replacement until the fluid in the system runs clean (search mud for how-tos).
• Clean the area around the pump, steering box, hoses, etc. to make inspecting for leaks easier.
• Note how dirty the fluid that came out was and what was in it (hopefully not much metal/shiny stuff).
• Run the truck to see how the fluid change impacted steering operation and if there are relevant leaks, etc..
• Find any leaks and diagnose if any hoses, lines or components need replacement.
• If performance is acceptable, without leaks, I'd run it for a few weeks and then re-inspect and possibly flush the fluid again until it stays clean after operating for a while.

From there you may not need to replace any components, lines or hoses or you may have leaks or a damaged pump that need to be replaced, etc.. Hopefully the steering box is ok and not compromised from metal in the system and I'd personally give it every chance to prove that it's ok before jumping into replacing it.

There could be other issues with the system not reflected in the above plans / steps. Loose components and major damage to the system could be present, as the dealership seems to indicate with their recommendations, so be careful not to run it and cause more damage if you are hearing increasingly loud and concerning noises, etc. Based on my experience working as a dealership mechanic years ago though (not Toyota) the techs may have been being a combination of lazy, careful and greedy with their recommendations. Rather than take the time to diagnose the issue and only recommend you replace what actually needs to be replaced they may have decided to have you replace everything that may be involved. Without being there I don't know if their recommendations were based on something they observed but it's common practice for some shops to simply take the 'replace it all' approach with minimal/no reason and minimal/no real diagnostic time. That is the safest and highest profit path for them to take so it makes sense why they would do this.

Try to minimize the groaning as it is likely cavitation and wearing the pump but getting clean fluid to the pump should improve, and likely fix, that. If the system operates without noise and adequate power some times then I'd take the above steps that I listed and be optimistic that some/all of the major components are actually ok and that you just have air, contamination and/or blockage in the system causing the pump to cavitate and that once the system has clean fluid in it that it will work fine with no other changes beyond possibly fixing a few leaks.

 

[andrewab]

First I’ve heard of an issue like that. You could send the steering box out to a rebuilder for way less than Toyota wants for a new one. I have a hard time believing that there would be metal in the system. Way more likely to be low on fluid or just need the fluid to be flushed.

But even if you wanted to buy the new Toyota part they are currently 25% off at Serra Toyota of Decatur which brings it to $3800 instead of $5400. But like I said I have a hard believing you need to go there.

Appreciate that info - I was pretty surprised by the analysis as well and hope I don't need to go that route. The Toyota dealership I brought it to has been good so far but it didn't seem like they really definitively knew there was metal in the system, which makes it even more frustrating to get a quote that's so outrageous.

I'm taking into another shop tomorrow who works a lot on Toyotas, although likely not many LC around this area. We'll see what they say but I'll certainly pass along your feedback and other information people have shared on this thread.

 

[andrewab]

What you wrote here makes it sound like this is an intermittent issue and that the noise and lower power don't happen all of the time, is that correct? If the power steering feels fine and runs quiet sometimes that is a relevant clue to the extent of the issues and what may be going on, etc. I'd say this is mostly correct. The issue really picked up around January this year during the coldest part of the winter in Green Bay. Always started and ran fine, but winter just seems hard on some components. Because I attributed this to likely being due to the cold, I didn't think much of it. It's my daily driver although my commute is only a few miles to work each day. On days when I did drive further, I'd notice improvement as the vehicle "warmed." However, once temps warmed and the issue was still consistent, I decided to bring it in.

A few possible causes to your symptoms:

• Old and contaminated fluid can have moisture in it, etc. and can fail to perform well in cold temps. This could be related to the issues you are seeing now or how some of them came about during the cold winter, maybe. If the fluid gets too thick due to it freezing with contaminants then it's not going to flow well, the pump will starve for fluid and cavitation (which wears the vanes/surfaces in the pump) etc. will cause groaning and low power and can do relevant damage to the pump pretty quickly.
• Leaks can allow air to get into the system which can then cause the fluid to froth up and absorb compression which causes a reduction in power and other issues in the pump as it tries to compress the air (also can cause cavitation and groaning at the pump).
• Clogging of the filter/screen in the fluid reservoir can restrict flow, starve the pump and cause groaning (cavitation) and lower power.

If it were mine I'd of course start with a close inspection of the system but my expectations are that my next steps would be to do the following, on my own, at home:

• Drain fluid from the reservoir and clean the filter/screen to make sure that fluid can flow properly.
• Do a full fluid replacement until the fluid in the system runs clean (search mud for how-tos).
• Clean the area around the pump, steering box, hoses, etc. to make inspecting for leaks easier.
• Note how dirty the fluid that came out was and what was in it (hopefully not much metal/shiny stuff).
• Run the truck to see how the fluid change impacted steering operation and if there are relevant leaks, etc..
• Find any leaks and diagnose if any hoses, lines or components need replacement.
• If performance is acceptable, without leaks, I'd run it for a few weeks and then re-inspect and possibly flush the fluid again until it stays clean after operating for a while.

From there you may not need to replace any components, lines or hoses or you may have leaks or a damaged pump that need to be replaced, etc.. Hopefully the steering box is ok and not compromised from metal in the system and I'd personally give it every chance to prove that it's ok before jumping into replacing it. All great suggestions - thank you. Tomorrow it'll be in the shop and I'll pass along this advice. To your point below, I really don't think the place I brought it to previously did a very thorough review to understand the issue. It seemed to more of a guess based on what they noticed vs a diagnosis based on actual evidence. And then threw a large quote at me and told me that since it was such an old vehicle, maybe it wouldn't be worth repairing anyway. Which I was pissed about. Hoping for the best - will provide an update on the thread!

There could be other issues with the system not reflected in the above plans / steps. Loose components and major damage to the system could be present, as the dealership seems to indicate with their recommendations, so be careful not to run it and cause more damage if you are hearing increasingly loud and concerning noises, etc. Based on my experience working as a dealership mechanic years ago though (not Toyota) the techs may have been being a combination of lazy, careful and greedy with their recommendations. Rather than take the time to diagnose the issue and only recommend you replace what actually needs to be replaced they may have decided to have you replace everything that may be involved. Without being there I don't know if their recommendations were based on something they observed but it's common practice for some shops to simply take the 'replace it all' approach with minimal/no reason and minimal/no real diagnostic time. That is the safest and highest profit path for them to take so it makes sense why they would do this.

Try to minimize the groaning as it is likely cavitation and wearing the pump but getting clean fluid to the pump should improve, and likely fix, that. If the system operates without noise and adequate power some times then I'd take the above steps that I listed and be optimistic that some/all of the major components are actually ok and that you just have air, contamination and/or blockage in the system causing the pump to cavitate and that once the system has clean fluid in it that it will work fine with no other changes beyond possibly fixing a few leaks.

 

[Fj80oregon]

this is a great time for you to learn your system. This site thrives on helping each other not shops! Just saying it’s gonna be a expensive journey paying people to work on your cruiser, good news is you don’t have to with all the support on here and every single issue you can think of has been covered in detail here with how to threads, dos and do nots. I get you don’t have a lot of experience and that’s just fine never too late to pick up some new skills! These trucks are very easy to work on and the FSM will tell you everything you need to know or we will. Good luck. One more thing if a shop says you have an issue make them show you, if they can’t or talk around it, they are full of it and trying to get payed.

 

[lumbee1]

The gears are steel. Put a magnetic stick in the fluid to see if it picks up anything.

Like others have said, add fluid first.
A reman pump, steering box rebuild, and new hoses are less than $800.

 

[andrewab]

this is a great time for you to learn your system. This site thrives on helping each other not shops! Just saying it’s gonna be a expensive journey paying people to work on your cruiser, good news is you don’t have to with all the support on here and every single issue you can think of has been covered in detail here with how to threads, dos and do nots. I get you don’t have a lot of experience and that’s just fine never too late to pick up some new skills! These trucks are very easy to work on and the FSM will tell you everything you need to know or we will. Good luck. One more thing if a shop says you have an issue make them show you, if they can’t or talk around it, they are full of it and trying to get payed.

you're spot on - I need to start doing this. seems a bit intimidating with no background in working on vehicles. but I've got to start giving this a shot and learning little by little.

Good news on this issue is that after having another shop take a look it doesn't seem as severe. Slight crack in the pump but potentially not a major issue with more monitoring fluids.

 

[duece71]

I learned a hard lesson about dealerships and these 80 series Land Cruisers…..they lick their cash chops when they see one roll in. The dealership is going to be the most expensive option (labor could be $100+/hour) for any maintenance. The FSM is free on here in the resources section and has great info. A lot of very knowledgeable enthusiasts on here as well.