80 vs. 40 for long term appreciation?

[MTBGUY]

Hey everyone- I already have an 80 series and a different daily driver that gets good mpgs to go to work, but have been tossing around the idea of getting another cruiser. I have seen lots of nice low mileage 80 series with asking prices around 8-9k, and it looks like for the same amount (or less) I could pick up an older FJ40. If I bought the 80, I would drive the heck out of one of them and "keep" the other one for later in a manner of speaking- just using it enough to keep everything going in good condition.

I KNOW this is a total apples to oranges thing, but have tossed around the idea of keeping/playing with an FJ40 for ten years or so, then seeing what its worth. In the same line of reasoning the 80s in good shape will probably start to be more rare also in another 10-12 years, and probably appreciate in value also.

With the economy so screwed up, I'd rather put a little of my money in Landcruisers than the stock market- at least I'll have something to show for it!

I couldn't find any similar threads on this so maybe I'm just crazy?

 

[chtucker]

I don't think anything but a stellar 40 restoration is ever going to appreciate.

Very few vehicles are investments. They all depreciate

 

[LX'nTX'n]

DO it! a 40 will appreciate more than an 80, especially in the next 10 years. Heck, they've already started, the 80 is still in a rapid depriciation spiral with no end in sight.

 

[-Spike-]

Vehicles don't make good investments. That being said, a 40 in good shape will probably always trump an 80 in good shape.

-Spike

 

[Cruiserdrew]

I doubt even 40s are going to appreciate. 80s certainly will not. Own them and drive them for the enjoyment they give you. I always assume any money spent on a Land Cruiser is a total loss. It's a hobby and something to keep you sane, it isn't an investment.

 

[Brian894X4]

I agree that generally, no vehicle is an investment, especially one that is driven or off roaded...but, the 80 is a very unique vehicle….

I personally think the 80 will appreciate in the coming years after this current price collapse ends. Think about it. The 80 is a type of vehicle that will NEVER, EVER, be made again. And it’s a very unique vehicle. It combines very modern engines, drivetrain, suspension and body and interior with the extremely rare and highly desired solid axle suspension. I don’t know that all of us appreciate the solid axles, but I came from the Toyota mini-truck world and trust me, people are willing to trade their left nut to get solid axle vehicles.

I think it’s a safe bet that Toyota will never make a solid axle SUV for the U.S. market ever again. The last 80 was built over 11 years ago. And they only imported between 10-15K a year. This is a rare vehicle and will only get rarer. Much rarer.

The vast majority of U.S. 80 buyers from the beginning have always been rich yuppies who never desired to go off road and that was the case right on through a year or two ago, when the SUV market finally collapsed. Now that the price of the 80 is rapidly falling, it’s getting into the hands of more and more buyers who truly appreciate the off road qualities and extremely heavy duty chassis and especially the extremely rare solid axle suspension. As the secret of the 80 gets out, desirability is going to increase to the point that values will start to go up again.

The only reason solid axle Toyota mini-trucks that were only imported through 1985, didn’t skyrocket to insane values, is because someone figured out how to cost effectively convert a later model mini-truck to solid front axle, thus adding many thousands of solid axle mini-trucks onto the market. But this is not something that can be done easily to a 100 series Land Cruiser, 200 series or a late model 4runner. Sure, a few exist, but not the thousands SAS conversions you see in the mini-trucks and this makes the 80 a true last of its breed and one that will never be easily replicable.

The thing that keeps 80s cheap today, is that the collapsed SUV market has completely chased away it’s primary customer, the soccer mom, family car buyer. The 80 series off road/expedition buyer is still fairly rare, because the 80 is still an unknown and under appreciated rig outside of groups like our own. How many 80 owners out there don't even know what they have? Don't know what lockers are, even if they have them. How many 80s for sale are bone stock. This is an indicator of where the 80 is today. It's in limbo. Sort of in between the conventional used car market, where the 80 is a pariah and the niche' off road market where the 40s and Toyota mini-trucks still rule. Trust me, this will change with time.

Right now, there are some seriously incredible bargains out there and if I had a place to put them, I'd buy a few low mileage rigs that have come way down in price. I figure they will continue to come down even more all through this recession as most sellers have absolutely no idea what they have. They assume they have nothing more than a 12-16 year old worthless SUV, not unlike an old Tahoe. And will continue to sell them for bottom dollar prices for a good while. But I think they will eventually start to climb up in price, in a serious way, on the other end of this economic cycle. Especially for the rariest 80s of all…lower mileage, good condition examples with factory lockers.

 

[WES1977]

I don't think you will get anything out of an 80. Sure it's a great vehicle, but it lacks in looks. It's not a head turner. The 40 is just more well known and the looks of a classic. I don't think the 40 is a good investment, you just might break even.

 

[wfd175]

I don't think you will get anything out of an 80. Sure it's a great vehicle, but it lacks in looks. It's not a head turner. The 40 is just more well known and the looks of a classic. I don't think the 40 is a good investment, you just might break even.

At least when I'm out in the 80 they don't say "nice jeep", like they do with my 40,

 

[4xoddic]

Reader's Digest abridged version:

already have an 80

If I bought the 80, I would drive the heck out of one of them and "keep" the other one for later in a manner of speaking- just using it enough to keep everything going in good condition.

With the economy so screwed up, I'd rather put a little of my money in Landcruisers than the stock market- at least I'll have something to show for it!

My convinced me to begin an experiment in 1998: $2K into an IRA (social awareness-type, no Coke, baby formulas banned in USA, etc). Last Qtr. is was nearly back to $2K, LOL, now in the tank again!


So your 97 40th has only 82K miles? IF you stop today, will that = investment candidate? Mudites seem to think so (OBD II, lower mileage, lockers)

anything but a stellar 40 restoration is ever going to appreciate.

Very few vehicles are investments. They all depreciate

I worked as 1/2 of the Publicity Office at McPherson Colege, with the world's only 4-yr auto restoration degree MC Restoration Technology Dept Intersesion goal was to restore a Model A, young guys working alongside retirees / collectors. Leno has a scholarship there now. No they won't take your FJ45 as a project = unless you give it to them & then buy it back (I heard them turn down Alex Haley). MAC's restos are investments, but appreciation is in the eyes of the beholder.

the 80 is still in a rapid depriciation spiral with no end in sight.

Vehicles don't make good investments.

a Land Cruiser's a hobby and something to keep you sane, it isn't an investment.

As a rule, all true. Then, I've never been to Hershey, PA. Kruse International “The Hershey Auction” MAC sends a team there every year.

Here's a link Sema.Org Restoration Market Update which mentions "Smokey" Billue's PRIVATE McPherson Museum (very little public visitation, I got my parents, aunt & uncle inside & they all took a back seat in an ancient, open-top Rolls. Smokey had 2 mechanics as full time employees to keep his cars in status. Collection auctioned upon his death.

the 80 is a very unique vehicle….a rare vehicle and will only get rarer. Much rarer.

As the secret of the 80 gets out, desirability is going to increase to the point that values will start to go up again.

the niche' off road market where the 40s and Toyota mini-trucks still rule.

the other end of this economic cycle. Especially for the rariest 80s of all…lower mileage, good condition examples with factory lockers.

The 40 is just more well known and the looks of a classic.

My prediction on this "cycle": in another 10 years, gasoline may well be a niche market. In 40 years, ask yourself what the last barrel of oil will be worth? Will it be refined to put into an 80 or a FJ40? I'm beginning to remember where the term Horsepower came from & those guys who bought up nags, buggies & Conestoga wagons as an investment. Did they live long enough to realize the increased value?

Buy what you'll enjoy , jot down that you used to be able to buy gas for $4/gal. That'll make a good story for your grandkids one day all too soon.

 

[Firedog]

Vehicles don't make good investments?
How many other things out there can you get that type of return on?
You just can't hold on to them that long. I have had close to 60 vehicles, about ten of which were Toyotas. I have always sold my Toyota's for more than I paid for them.
Buy the 40 if you have the ability to do so, it should always be worth what you paid (unless you go nuts and buy one from TLC or something). Just be aware, they are not the best vehicles to try and use as a daily driver. (not comfortable, gas mileage-although better than an 80- still sucks, great heat, no air in most, tremendous urge to dump LOTS of cash into which really effects the "investment" end of it)
Any investment is a risk, as long as you don't go overboard "restoring" a vehicle, many will give you an excellent return.

 

[MTBGUY]

This is all great advice to hear. I know that vehicles aren't considered investments, but don't see how I could really lose anything. They aren't making any more of these. An 80 wouldn't have the rust issues that the 40 would have, but is a heck of alot easier to find, and have better galvanizing/rustproofing.

When growing up my father bought and restored ten vehicles. He never considered them an investment, but he broke even on three of them, the other seven he made big money on- much better than he ever could have on the stock market- Example:
Bought a 1973 jaguar E-type with low miles in 1984 really cheap - it had sat in a doctors back yard in Texas and needed paint and interior in a big way, but no rust and minimal engine work needed. He paid $ 12000 for it and spent another $11000 with paint/leather/parts. Total investment was around 23-24k and he had everything done by professionals except we did the interior/weatherstripping/seals ourself. he sold the car approx 3 years later for $78000 at auction- a 54k (300%) profit.

I know this probably not something I could ever repeat with a 40 or 80 but you never know. There is currently a 40 series with frame off restoration on Ebay (at a Toyota dealer) with a "buy it now" asking price of $135,000!

My 401k has lost 60% of its value in the last nine months.

 

[Tofudebeest]

This is a softball question. There are people who appreciate 80s but it is nothing like the foaming at the mouth, insane cult following around the 40-series. If it were not for the 40, this site would never have been made, of that I'm sure.

You drive a 40, you get random, spontaneous offers for it, sometimes for serious coin. That will virtually never happen with an 80. Something about the spartan, bare bones, rugged, simplistic, no plastic 40 that turns heads (and always will). The 80, while an awesome rig, is deep into territory with all the creature comforts and computers, etc. 60's are somewhere in between. The 55 is closer to the 40 in that regard.

While I'm a 60/62 guy, I must say, in all sincerity, that the 40-series is the quinessential Toyota Landcruiser, and will be for all time.

But they're all money pits, make no mistake about it. Unless you find the rare barn gem or a stupid, ignorant owner, or have lots of time to put sweat equity into restoring/building these vehicles, you'll never profit, and when you do, its rare to even break even with what you put into it.

You want a good investment? Travel abroad in 3rd world countries or even in places where TLCs are a dime a dozen (Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Honduras, JAPAN), seek out a rig with low miles and little use that is just somehow a survivor, and buy it CHEAP, if you can. Import here and sell. The proliferation of people doing just that will serve as evidence that there is money to be made with this business model.

State-side, there are no bargains for mint or already restored 40s--you'll be the one to do the resto. If you can find an mint 80 for cheap (~$5,000 or so) and have ten years worth of patience and can store that vehicle for free, then this might actually be a modest investment. If you do an excellent diesel conversion, definitely.

 

[MTBGUY]

I don't think you will get anything out of an 80. Sure it's a great vehicle, but it lacks in looks. It's not a head turner. The 40 is just more well known and the looks of a classic. I don't think the 40 is a good investment, you just might break even.

Hey now! I LOVE the way my 80 looks. I know it looks a lot different than an FJ40 but I get compliments on it everywhere I go. I know I'm a crazy car guy, but after years of owning it I still stick my head out in the garage before I go to bed at night to steal one last look.

Its amazing how many average Americans don't even know what it is...

 

[MTBGUY]

The 80, while an awesome rig, is deep into territory (TRUE)!

You want a good investment? Travel abroad in 3rd world countries or even in places where TLCs are a dime a dozen (Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Honduras, JAPAN), seek out a rig with low miles and little use that is just somehow a survivor, and buy it CHEAP, if you can. Import here and sell. The proliferation of people doing just that will serve as evidence that there is money to be made with this business model. (TRUE)!


I have been looking at this (seem to be a bunch of nice older ones in New Zealand for some reason), I almost bought an awesome one for 6K in NZ in immaculate condition, but hesitated because of unfamiliarity with the titling/licensing/importing process.

 

[nicholas]

Hey now! I LOVE the way my 80 looks. I know it looks a lot different than an FJ40 but I get compliments on it everywhere I go. I know I'm a crazy car guy, but after years of owning it I still stick my head out in the garage before I go to bed at night to steal one last look.

Its amazing how many average Americans don't even know what it is...

I'm glad I'm not the only one. The thinks I'm a weirdo. I also get all giddy when I get to drive the 80, since I only drive it maybe once a week.

I used to like 40's, but I never had the cash to buy one. When I graduated college and had a real job that paid more than $8/hr I realized the 80 is a lot more practical for a DD and it had been my dream vehicle since Jr. High when they were new. I would definitely buy a few low mile 80's if I had a place to store them. Not so much as an investment but as insurance that I will always have an 80 to putt around in and take to the trails and pass on to my kids.

 

[FZJ80Fireman]

your 401K or IRA is a LONG TERM INVESTMENT. If you have a good mutual fund manager, you will always make money in the long run. The problem is most people (me included) spend more time working on the next mod for their 40 or 80 than they do about learning where there money is. NO STOCKS unless you are a day trader.

Any way, working on LC is way more fun than playing with the stock market. consider it a Lifestyle Asset and write it off.

 

[MTBGUY]

your 401K or IRA is a LONG TERM INVESTMENT. The problem is most people (me included) spend more time working on the next mod for their 40 or 80 than they do about learning where there money is. NO STOCKS unless you are a day trader.

Any way, working on LC is way more fun than playing with the stock market. consider it a Lifestyle Asset and write it off.

Good advice and a great healthy attitude you have towards our passion for these vehicles.

btw: I found the $135,000 Landcruiser on Ebay a minute ago-LINK: eBay Motors: Toyota : Land Cruiser (item 110295897795 end time Oct-24-08 13:25:06 PDT)

 

[Brian894X4]

What the got the 40 into cult status and eventually caused their values to go up was that they were cheaper than the Jeep, so more people bought one. My Dad bought his brand new 40 in '69 specificly because it was cheaper than the Jeep and so did many others. Only later did they realize how much better of a rig it was. The 40s continued to be cheaper all through 1970s, so they fell into a enough hands to create that true cult following.

The Toyota mini-truck cult following went along the same lines. Used Toyota mini-trucks started to become a dime a dozen by the mid to late 1990s and soon everyone had one and now they are the most popular truck out there for off roading because of their discovered capabilities and values are starting to go back up.

The 80 has been cost prohibitive for 99% of people ever since it was new. Even as a used vehicle, most were going for well into the 5 digits even through today. But as prices fall, the 80s will fall into more and more hands that appreciate what it can do and the features it has hidden under all leather and bling. There's already a small 80 cult following, including this board. That will only increase and eventually so will values.

As far as gas prices, I guess it all depends on which theory on the future of oil you believe. Some think we're run out of it in a few days, some think we'll continue to discover more and more deposits into the future and it will remain the primary source of go power for the next 100 years. All I know is that when oil hit $140/barrel, the enviros were crying chicken little and the era of oil was over. Now it's down to 80-90/barrel and gas prices are expected to be back towards the high 2s to lows 3s later this year.

I think gas prices will have a direct short term affect on 80 values, but long term, such as 10-20 years, when they become rare as hens teeth, the rich who will want them, won't care what it costs to make them run.

 

[Nay]

The 80 is a far better purchase decision than most, because it is a dual purpose family rig. When I bought mine in 2005 with 105K miles I had a reasonable belief that it would last longer than whatever new vehicle I could buy. So instead of dumping $40K on a new 4Runner I paid $13.8K on an 80 with some good mods and all of the PM work done at Slee, including head gasket.

In doing so I have probably saved myself $50K or more in long term vehicle expenses (cost and loan interest on a new vehicle). It costs very little to insure, I pay no taxes on it, it takes very little of my time in maintenance (thanks to the PO). That's not to say it's not a money pit, but that's hobby money, and a hobby budget is a hobby budget.

I kind of wish I had bought two of them instead of a new $40K minivan, because I'd have zero car payments right now and two extremely capable vehicles. Gas hurts, but I don't drive that much as I work out of a home office.

You simply cannot get the usefulness out of a 40 as you can an 80. The 40 is a much better restore 'n sell project, the 80 has far more value in the stable.

At today's prices, you could get 2 nice stockers with lockers for the price of a used Rubicon. The value is not in selling the 80, it's in not needing to sell it or buy anything else.

A penny saved, as we know, is two pennies earned.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

The 80 is a far better purchase decision than most, because it is a dual purpose family rig. When I bought mine in 2005 with 105K miles I had a reasonable belief that it would last longer than whatever new vehicle I could buy. So instead of dumping $40K on a new 4Runner I paid $13.8K on an 80 with some good mods and all of the PM work done at Slee, including head gasket.

In doing so I have probably saved myself $50K or more in long term vehicle expenses (cost and loan interest on a new vehicle). It costs very little to insure, I pay no taxes on it, it takes very little of my time in maintenance (thanks to the PO). That's not to say it's not a money pit, but that's hobby money, and a hobby budget is a hobby budget.

I kind of wish I had bought two of them instead of a new $40K minivan, because I'd have zero car payments right now and two extremely capable vehicles. Gas hurts, but I don't drive that much as I work out of a home office.

You simply cannot get the usefulness out of a 40 as you can an 80. The 40 is a much better restore 'n sell project, the 80 has far more value in the stable.

At today's prices, you could get 2 nice stockers with lockers for the price of a used Rubicon. The value is not in selling the 80, it's in not needing to sell it or buy anything else.

A penny saved, as we know, is two pennies earned.

I totally agre with Nay. Any of the wagons are tops in overall utility, with a nod to 80s because thay can do anything for cheap and with atypical power for a Land Cruiser. It doesn't mean they will appreciate, which I can assure you they won't, but they are valuable additions to the family especially at today's depressed prices.

And Nay-the combo of an 80 and a minivan is pretty sweet. You'll be done with those payments soon, and nothing tops a minivan for utility. Our family is on our 3rd minivan, we'll probably always have one.

I love my FJ40 and have had some spectacular good times in it, but....it's a toy, and other then offroad trips, it basically does not leave the garage. On the Rubicon or Dusy, or Fordyce, it's the tool for the job, but it really isn't useful for driving around town, and it is unuasble for long trips. You could, but it would not be much fun.