70s Troopy Thoughts?

[TMort]

Looks to be in decent condition. What do you reckon a rig like this should cost?

1991 Toyota Land Cruiser HZJ 75/3,5 D/ H, 254k kms (*model corrected, dealer has it listed incorrect as an FZJ)

 

[sodafeld1]

I though you wanted a diesel?

 

[TMort]

This is a diesel.The dealer has it listed incorrectly, Post updated.

 

[Omrib]

This is a diesel.

Paint job does not look meticulous
Not sure of other procedures done to it...

 

[sodafeld1]

Sorry down here normally 'f'j is petrol and 'h' j is diesel.

Got pics of the engine and underneath, springs, driveshaft , transmission leaks, steering linkage? Gone for a drive?

If indeed diesel, hz engine with the timing belt in front? If original mileage the engine should be good. What does the oil look like? Coolant? Power steer fluid?

Hard to tell from pics if the body has something hiding but the graphics and colour matches the era. Looks neat from the pics, but..


The rear door latches suggest a respray, they were originally zinc passivated. So beware.

If you have the time check the colour code on the plates under the hood and then look up if the colour matches the colour code.

Looked under the aftermarket pvo carpet, especially the floor pans?

Put a magnet around the lower edges of the front windscreen and rain gutters to see if bogged up. wheel wells and sill cavities with a magnet. Try to find spots where the original paint is visible like internal cavities.

At least the rear chassis frame is straight and looks neat. I have seen a few which have been yanked out of bogs and have damaged or cracked the rear cross member, then hidden by covering it with something non factory.

The rear bumper is not factory, so it maybe hiding something.

Troopies have become a bit more rare. In Oz, Victoria I have not seen a good diesel troopy for less than $20k aud for a few years. Queensland and W.A. cheaper. but normally pretty rough.

Have no idea how many troopies went to Europe or what sort of life they had. From the pics it looks like it has had a fresh respray which can cover lies.
Often hj, hzj troopies are getting similar prices as 2008 vdj troopies (one on ebay here for $20k aud). I prefer the older models myself and much prefer an older diesel.

To me it was worth looking patiently for a year. Better to buy without respray and see the original paint.

If it is good it should last your life time.

 

[TMort]

Great advice thank you very much. I have not seen the vehicle yet, haven’t gotten that far. Asking price is 22k euros. I am planning to view it next weekend, it’s 4 hours drive from me…I will bring a magnet with me. What is zinc passivated?

Here are a few more pics:

Sorry down here normally 'f'j is petrol and 'h' j is diesel.

Got pics of the engine and underneath, springs, driveshaft , transmission leaks, steering linkage? Gone for a drive?

If indeed diesel, hz engine with the timing belt in front? If original mileage the engine should be good. What does the oil look like? Coolant? Power steer fluid?

Hard to tell from pics if the body has something hiding but the graphics and colour matches the era. Looks neat from the pics, but..


The rear door latches suggest a respray, they were originally zinc passivated. So beware.

If you have the time check the colour code on the plates under the hood and then look up if the colour matches the colour code.

Looked under the aftermarket pvo carpet, especially the floor pans?

Put a magnet around the lower edges of the front windscreen and rain gutters to see if bogged up. wheel wells and sill cavities with a magnet. Try to find spots where the original paint is visible like internal cavities.

At least the rear chassis frame is straight and looks neat. I have seen a few which have been yanked out of bogs and have damaged or cracked the rear cross member, then hidden by covering it with something non factory.

The rear bumper is not factory, so it maybe hiding something.

Troopies have become a bit more rare. In Oz, Victoria I have not seen a good diesel troopy for less than $20k aud for a few years. Queensland and W.A. cheaper. but normally pretty rough.

Have no idea how many troopies went to Europe or what sort of life they had. From the pics it looks like it has had a fresh respray which can cover lies.
Often hj, hzj troopies are getting similar prices as 2008 vdj troopies (one on ebay here for $20k aud). I prefer the older models myself and much prefer an older diesel.

To me it was worth looking patiently for a year. Better to buy without respray and see the original paint.

If it is good it should last your life time.

 

[Omrib]

Zinc passivated, means zinc plated.
Meaning the part is a steel part which coated with a thin layer of zinc in an electro chemical bonding process.
These parts should be silver colored original from factory, maybe dirty and with minor sign of rust, but definitely not in vehicle paint/color.

Now, without a thorough check as last comment by @sodafeld1 suggested, it is difficult to determine the exact state of the vehicle.

I am not that of a purist and original paint is not necessarily what I am looking for and also at least from a distance the outside appearance seems pretty nice, but....
Having the door hinges, the rear latches, and the fender rubber isolators sprayed, implies for not the highest level of attention to details on behalf of the paint executer.
This issue may raise questions with regards to the PO's attention to other things like rust repair procedures, maintenance procedures etc.
This one indication does not automatically cancel this vehicle from Being a candidate for purchase, it tells you to check the vehicle thoroughly before paying top price for it.
I personally like the color scheme, even if it turns out not to be original, but do not like the overspray.

I also do not mind much about some cracking of the rear cross member if the chassis looks good and straight, it is easy enough to, clean, reweld and paint. Although it does usually tell you that this vehicle towed and recovered vehicles before....

In any way, this vehicle looks way better than mine

Good luck
Keep posting

 

[sodafeld1]

Kind of annoys me when dealers pretty up the outside and neglect attention to the engine bay. They take folks for idiots, as if it does not need to be clean and shiny there. They assume you won't look, at least hope not. It is not honest, they would rather sell to a young impatient idiot fooled by glossy paint, money burning hot in their hands.

The engine bay does not look loved at a glance. The same attention to pretty the outside has not been paid to the engine bay, which can mean the engine is neglected. Probably even more so the drive train.

If the pvo cared for it, usually the engine bay looks better than the body. If an honest sale, the external cosmetics match the engine bay, where indeed you see the original factory colour, unfaded from uv.

Looks like a hz to me, someone else would say for sure. The timing belt is in the little plastic box at the front of the engine. To me it is a hzj75 not an fzj75. They are a good motor. Always insist for a dead cold start, not when the engine is already warm. Then you can see if the engine smokes from cold.

I heard a used car dealer state in Oz, everyday 2 million people are in the market looking for a car. That was when the population was 22 million.
At present, in Oz there is 20 million cars registered, pop. 27 million. Nearly everyone has at least one! Hard to do stuff without a car in Oz.
Since covid, imports slowed down, so the car market pool shrank. This elevated the status of the 'used car dealer, who have always been known as untrustworthy. Now they wear suits and get top dollar for the same lies and dodgy practice.
Not sure how it went in Europe, but I can imagine there is dodgy dealers too.

I would be wary at that price for $32k aud personally. If you wait long enough, next year, the rust will re-emerge from this one I am guessing.
When you think of how many cars you shall buy in your life, it is worth being patient.
Best is original paint, even a few honest scratches and bumps for it's age. Even some visible rust is almost preferred than shiny all over, something is going to be hidden under the gloss. At least if you fix rust yourself, you do a good job.

Look for a good chassis, bodywork is easier to fix than chassis, and preferably a loved motor and drive train. To me, chassis, engine and gear box are the most important and valuable, everything else is easy to fix and not too expensive.

Looks like a dealer to me, they are professional liars. Better to buy direct from pvo. Ex council, ex farm, ex government or nato or whoever used them in Europe.
By all means have a look, but be wary, fools rush in. No idea of how many troopies are in Europe, which does influence you. Also depends on your finances and time , willingness to do your own work.

I love the configuration of my good troopy, work, camp and play, people bus too. Just for another perspective, I bought another hj75 troopy wreck for $2500 aud, year and half ago. But I shall spend at least $10k aud fixing it, maybe $15k without counting my time. But I do a good job, ready for biodiesel.

 

[Felde]

Looks quite Ok. Price is about normal for Germany. Troopies are rare in Germany. Most came from Iberia or France.
The green tag on the rear number plate is from the mandatory technical inspection (HU, also referred to as TÜV), which is due every two years. Green indicates either 2018 or 2024. I can't read the year in the middle of the tag. The tag below (with the code of arms) is the validity stamp. When a registration is ended or withdrawn, those get scraped off. They are intact here, suggesting the vehicle is registered, so I guess also the inspectionnis recent (done 2022, valid until 2024)
In Germany it is common to ask a fresh technical inspection (HU) from the seller, as this is required to get the registration switched to the buyer.
It also is certified as a historic vehicle (the H at the end of the registration number), which also gives it a significant tax exemption in Germany (fix 192€ for the certified historic vehicle vs about 1150€ for a 4l diesel with no emission control). This can be done earliest when the vehicle is 30years old. As it is a yom 1991, this was earliest 2021 then. The certificate requires a special authorised expert's inspection, which includes and goes even beyond the normal technical inspection (HU).
So likely, this vehicle successfully passed an in depth technical inspection by a certified automotive expert organisation and gained its H certificate just recently (2022). Probably it was only imported recently...
That means:
Normal HU: All aspects relevant for roadworthiness, brakes, lights, steering, rust in bearing parts and frame, emissions test (gives a good Info on engine health) etc. have been checked and are ok.
H certificate: Vehicle is allmost original, no major mods, no significant rust (also on non-bearing parts). Respray is permitted.
Non of these inspections include a judgment on maintenence condition and wear, though. Only functional check and appearance as is.

The H also comes with special discount tarifes for insurance (as it is assumed such a fancy vehicle is not used as a daily driver). Insurances often ask a valution of the vehicle, issued by a vintage vehicle expert organisation, to get those tarifes. Common is Classic Data. This includes another in depth inspection and rating of the condition (now also addressing subjects like bondo, bodywork and paint) as well as a statement on the fair market price for the particular vehicle. Having this is not mandatory, though.

I suggest (beyond what others had suggested, which all holds true) :
- Take a German expert with you. It's 5h from my place, so I can't do it, but you might post in forum.buschtaxi.org and ask for help. There are J7 enthusiast in that area, too.
- Ask what the history and origin of the vehicle is.
- Try to find out what the nature of the seller is. Gaining profit (import, pimp & sell), Toyota expert / enthusiast, long term owner ...
- Carefully check the paperwork. The title holds the history of owners as well as the registration history and history of regular TÜV inspection. Any mods (e.g. suspension lift, different rims ...) must be mentioned and approved there. (All in German, so expert advised)
The title also indicates if and when the vehicle had been imported. If so, you need to check the foreign title's history then.
- Ask if there is a valuation certificate (e.g. Classic Data)
- Normally you could do a test drive and stop by a certified inspection authority (TÜV, DEKRA, GTÜ) and ask for a quick experts look on the lift. When not to busy, they usually help for a tip into the coffee kitty, in particular on such rare vehicles, which they also admire. May require prearrangement and approval by seller.
Good luck Ralf

PS: Did you really make up your mind alreaday what is the right vehicle for you? If it comes to Toyota, in particular J7, I still recommend to attend Buschtaxitreffen on September 9-11 in Ohrdruf near Erfurt. Lots of vehicles there and plenty of opportunities to talk to experts, see, touch and even testdrive various models. (I'll be there, too)

Das Buschtaxi-Treffen / The Buschtaxi Meeting

Das nächste BTT / next Meeting: 6.-8. September 2024

forum.buschtaxi.org

 

[TMort]

All valid points thank you. I agree, I far prefer the original paint, not to mention that original patina. Yes there are shifty dealers over here I’m sure, but what makes it even more difficult is the language barrier, not their fault. Lol One thing I have noticed is that German dealers are VERY impatient compared to those in the states. Almost zero customer service from the large majority (not all but most) so one really has to know what their looking for.

Kind of annoys me when dealers pretty up the outside and neglect attention to the engine bay. They take folks for idiots, as if it does not need to be clean and shiny there. They assume you won't look, at least hope not. It is not honest, they would rather sell to a young impatient idiot fooled by glossy paint, money burning hot in their hands.

The engine bay does not look loved at a glance. The same attention to pretty the outside has not been paid to the engine bay, which can mean the engine is neglected. Probably even more so the drive train.

If the pvo cared for it, usually the engine bay looks better than the body. If an honest sale, the external cosmetics match the engine bay, where indeed you see the original factory colour, unfaded from uv.

Looks like a hz to me, someone else would say for sure. The timing belt is in the little plastic box at the front of the engine. To me it is a hzj75 not an fzj75. They are a good motor. Always insist for a dead cold start, not when the engine is already warm. Then you can see if the engine smokes from cold.

I heard a used car dealer state in Oz, everyday 2 million people are in the market looking for a car. That was when the population was 22 million.
At present, in Oz there is 20 million cars registered, pop. 27 million. Nearly everyone has at least one! Hard to do stuff without a car in Oz.
Since covid, imports slowed down, so the car market pool shrank. This elevated the status of the 'used car dealer, who have always been known as untrustworthy. Now they wear suits and get top dollar for the same lies and dodgy practice.
Not sure how it went in Europe, but I can imagine there is dodgy dealers too.

I would be wary at that price for $32k aud personally. If you wait long enough, next year, the rust will re-emerge from this one I am guessing.
When you think of how many cars you shall buy in your life, it is worth being patient.
Best is original paint, even a few honest scratches and bumps for it's age. Even some visible rust is almost preferred than shiny all over, something is going to be hidden under the gloss. At least if you fix rust yourself, you do a good job.

Look for a good chassis, bodywork is easier to fix than chassis, and preferably a loved motor and drive train. To me, chassis, engine and gear box are the most important and valuable, everything else is easy to fix and not too expensive.

Looks like a dealer to me, they are professional liars. Better to buy direct from pvo. Ex council, ex farm, ex government or nato or whoever used them in Europe.
By all means have a look, but be wary, fools rush in. No idea of how many troopies are in Europe, which does influence you. Also depends on your finances and time , willingness to do your own work.

I love the configuration of my good troopy, work, camp and play, people bus too. Just for another perspective, I bought another hj75 troopy wreck for $2500 aud, year and half ago. But I shall spend at least $10k aud fixing it, maybe $15k without counting my time. But I do a good job, ready for biodiesel.

 

[TMort]

I will definitely attend if my work schedule permits, would be great to meet you if nothing else. My first choice is an original condition Troopy, 70 or 80 series. 80s seem to be more than I’m willing to pay anyway so I’ve been focusing on 70s series.

By the way, I found this Troopy listed by the PVO, that last photos re from his posting, which is also listed 1200 euros less than the dealer. I want to call him but my Duetch is horrible to nonexistent. Lol

Looks quite Ok. Price is about normal for Germany. Troopies are rare in Germany. Most came from Iberia or France.
The green tag on the rear number plate is from the mandatory technical inspection (HU, also referred to as TÜV), which is due every two years. Green indicates either 2018 or 2024. I can't read the year in the middle of the tag. The tag below (with the code of arms) is the validity stamp. When a registration is ended or withdrawn, those get scraped off. They are intact here, suggesting the vehicle is registered, so I guess also the inspectionnis recent (done 2022, valid until 2024)
In Germany it is common to ask a fresh technical inspection (HU) from the seller, as this is required to get the registration switched to the buyer.
It also is certified as a historic vehicle (the H at the end of the registration number), which also gives it a significant tax exemption in Germany (fix 192€ for the certified historic vehicle vs about 1150€ for a 4l diesel with no emission control). This can be done earliest when the vehicle is 30years old. As it is a yom 1991, this was earliest 2021 then. The certificate requires a special authorised expert's inspection, which includes and goes even beyond the normal technical inspection (HU).
So likely, this vehicle successfully passed an in depth technical inspection by a certified automotive expert organisation and gained its H certificate just recently (2022). Probably it was only imported recently...
That means:
Normal HU: All aspects relevant for roadworthiness, brakes, lights, steering, rust in bearing parts and frame, emissions test (gives a good Info on engine health) etc. have been checked and are ok.
H certificate: Vehicle is allmost original, no major mods, no significant rust (also on non-bearing parts). Respray is permitted.
Non of these inspections include a judgment on maintenence condition and wear, though. Only functional check and appearance as is.

The H also comes with special discount tarifes for insurance (as it is assumed such a fancy vehicle is not used as a daily driver). Insurances often ask a valution of the vehicle, issued by a vintage vehicle expert organisation, to get those tarifes. Common is Classic Data. This includes another in depth inspection and rating of the condition (now also addressing subjects like bondo, bodywork and paint) as well as a statement on the fair market price for the particular vehicle. Having this is not mandatory, though.

I suggest (beyond what others had suggested, which all holds true) :
- Take a German expert with you. It's 5h from my place, so I can't do it, but you might post in forum.buschtaxi.org and ask for help. There are J7 enthusiast in that area, too.
- Ask what the history and origin of the vehicle is.
- Try to find out what the nature of the seller is. Gaining profit (import, pimp & sell), Toyota expert / enthusiast, long term owner ...
- Carefully check the paperwork. The title holds the history of owners as well as the registration history and history of regular TÜV inspection. Any mods (e.g. suspension lift, different rims ...) must be mentioned and approved there. (All in German, so expert advised)
The title also indicates if and when the vehicle had been imported. If so, you need to check the foreign title's history then.
- Ask if there is a valuation certificate (e.g. Classic Data)
- Normally you could do a test drive and stop by a certified inspection authority (TÜV, DEKRA, GTÜ) and ask for a quick experts look on the lift. When not to busy, they usually help for a tip into the coffee kitty, in particular on such rare vehicles, which they also admire. May require prearrangement and approval by seller.
Good luck Ralf

PS: Did you really make up your mind alreaday what is the right vehicle for you? If it comes to Toyota, in particular J7, I still recommend to attend Buschtaxitreffen on September 9-11 in Ohrdruf near Erfurt. Lots of vehicles there and plenty of opportunities to talk to experts, see, touch and even testdrive various models. (I'll be there, too)

Das Buschtaxi-Treffen / The Buschtaxi Meeting

Das nächste BTT / next Meeting: 6.-8. September 2024

forum.buschtaxi.org

 

[Felde]

Not sure how it went in Europe, but I can imagine there is dodgy dealers too.

Yes, there are. Troopies are rare in Germany. Almost all have been imported, mostly from Iberia, The Netherlands or France. Troopies of that age, from loving original owners, are like non existing here. If one of those rare specimens gets sold, they are rather advertised in forums like buschtaxi or get sold by just spreading the word.
In the 80s an 90s, everyone who needed a sturdy offroader in Germany either went for Mercedes G-wagon (mines, authorities, army) or Landrover Defender. A few Nissan Galloper for pulling horse trailers....
Toyota Landcruisers were (and still are) mainly popular with overland travelers. But that was a niche, unless it started growing since 20xx.
There is a boom now in Germany for vintage vehicles as well as for overland vehicles right now. The regulations for vintage vehicles (H numberplate, see my post above) make it attractive for dealers to import rigs from Iberia, The Netherlands or France, make them up, get them H certified (= cheap in tax) and sell them by claiming Toyotas durability and jumping on the overlanding boom.
I would bet: This one is no exception.
This doesn't generally rule it out, though. There are rigs in good condition for their age in Southern Europe, that are good to go with just basic repairs. Not everybody can manage to go down there, inspect, probably return empty handed, or import, transport and restore a vehicle on his own. Dealers like those take over that part. You pay forn that 'service', but end up with a usable vehicle that you can build up on.
That's exactly how I got mine and what I did and do. It 'only' requires thorough inspection, an experts eye, good negotiation skills, and eventually the rationality to walk away from it, if things don't match or feel sketchy (even though that would mean 8h scenic drive for nothing).
Did it succeed for me? Yes and No. My rig has its flaws and it definitely was made up for sale. It has issues and rust that were hidden, there is bondo and the paint job is lousy. The engine bay looked similar. All belts needed replacement, the batteries died within 2 month, servo pump and water pump needed to be rebuild within 3 month. I didn't see all that in the first place, so I paid too much. But the engine and drive train is good. Did I regred it? Not really. I can afford it; its a hobby. I enjoyed doing the repairs and learn from it. And if I wouldn't have jumped on it, I would probably still read about Landcruisers in books and magazines only.
@TMort, you need to asses for yourself whether you have those skills. That's why I strongly suggest to get help from a local German enthusiast. A forum can't help much when in front or under a candidate vehicle.
Good luck Ralf

 

[Felde]

I will definitely attend if my work schedule permits, would be great to meet you if nothing else. My first choice is an original condition Troopy, 70 or 80 series. 80s seem to be more than I’m willing to pay anyway so I’ve been focusing on 70s series.

By the way, I found this Troopy listed by the PVO, that last photos re from his posting, which is also listed 1200 euros less than the dealer. I want to call him but my Duetch is horrible to nonexistent. Lol

PM sent

 

[Felde]

I googled some pics and found the adds.
First add was from a person abroad, as I could tell from the poor German. He was selling it with an EU title. Most likely an export dealer who bought it from the original PO for cheap and now makes some money by exporting it to the hype- affected Germans.
Second, current add is from a small hold dealer in Thüringen. Guess he bought it from the first guy for less then advertised, put German registration and H on it, and now sells it for 1200+ profit. I'm sure he only put in what was necessary to pass theninspections. As I said: They check for function, not maintenance condition. This is absolutely typical for Landcruiser in Germany.

I looked at the pics again. That one was definitely made up for sale, with no love at all. See the overspray on the rubber boot on the open front door?
The oversprayed hinges have already been mentioned. I'm pretty sure there is hidden more.

The add harshly says: Fix price, no negotiations. Doesn't sound honest and fair to me. Dealers reputation by comments is also not great.
I wouldn't take a long drive to see that one...
Ralf

 

[sodafeld1]

hmm, there ya go, European cruiser situation. Rare. It's interesting. My Dad was 'very German', so I can imagine inspections are well done. But there shall always be folks who are prepared to take short cuts for a quick buck anywhere.
Anyone painting like that is looking for a quick turn around is my initial assumption by pics from the other side of the world. The paint alone is a bit of money, why didn't they bother to do a better job,? if they are prepared to take visible short cuts, what are the unseen shortcuts?

I prefer the 70 series to 80's personally. Sounds like there shall be more opportunity coming up. Be patient , maybe give yourself a target number of how many you will look and drive at before buying. I would hope at least 3-6 troopies before you buy.
A good one shall last your life without too much grief. Look for a well loved one.

A dealer here would ask $40-45k aud for an ex rural firebrigade hj75 ute with under 47k on the engine. Troopy better than ute imo, more rare too. But ex fire brigade are genuine throughout, no lies, well maintained. They would sell slowly at that price, but eventually with negotiation. The fire brigade has to upgrade, so the dealers go to the auctions and resell.

Toyota Landcruiser HJ75 EASY FINANCE 02 9479 9555 | eBay

Landcruiser HJ75. Toyota Landcruiser HJ75. ARB old man emu GVM upgrade, power steering, almost new tyres, gal tray with existing rural fire brigade fittings, have been removed and new sides fitted. The best in the North West!

www.ebay.com.au

 

[JuanJ]

Hello,

AS mentioned above, the truck has been re-sprayed, the stripes may or may not be period correct and the carpet is aftermarket.

You mention 3.5 D. The 1PZ engine's displacement was 3.5 L and the engine in the bay looks 1PZ to me. Check the cylinder number: if it is five, then it is a 1PZ engine. Otherwise, six cylinders indicate a 1HZ engine.

The rear bumper and the bar in the rear are not factory. There is one rear seat missing.

The glove box transfer instruction label was common in trucks with 1PZ engines.

The truck does have rare features, namely differential lockers, headlight washers and an H4 button. The latter is on the wrong side of the panel, but it is quite likely a market-specific detail, as well as the hazard lights switch.

I would give this truck an extensive review, with a trusted mechanic if possible.

Consider the repaint and whatever it is hiding before making an offer.

Possible items to repair replace, off the top of my head: axle bearings, brake pads/shoes, front rotors, tie rod ends, radiator, transfer seals, steering damper. Consider this as well before making an offer.






Juan

 

[sodafeld1]

learn something all the time here, I never new toyota did a 5cyl version of the hz, v interesting

 

[coldtaco]

I love my vehicles but I don’t keep the engine bay clean Mainly because I don’t know how

 

[gilmorneau]

I think it's a 1PZ, not a 1HZ. That truck has been for sale for a long time. I haven't seen it first hand, but I know a guy who looked at it and passed on buying it after closer inspection.

caveat emptor.

 

[umpqua]

If it’s an hz I’d jump on it. 22 is the entry fee.