GTSSportCoupe
2LTE abuser
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5l injection pump wiring questions (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter advlars
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GTSSportCoupe
2LTE abuser
I only have so much time to read into it, but I'm getting the feeling all those sensors are just for controlling the EGR system. I *think* that your injection timing will work like any other mechanical pump and you don't need to worry about electronic control of the timing. I'll keep reading into it when I have time and will let you know. Access to that manual is a huge bonus though. All your answers are in there. Seems to me your motor is 1998.8 to 2001.7 model year based on those manuals (I'm assuming your throttle sensor is on the pump?).
- Thread starter
- #23
YES!!!!! YOU ARE A FREAKING HERO!!!! Thanks so much dude.
This forum is the best.
Im having trouble with the pdf on this computer, but hopefully i can pull it up on a friends computer tonight. So excited to finally have a lead!
Narrowing down the year and model this thing came out of will make parts searching a world easier in the future.
This forum is the best.
Im having trouble with the pdf on this computer, but hopefully i can pull it up on a friends computer tonight. So excited to finally have a lead!
Narrowing down the year and model this thing came out of will make parts searching a world easier in the future.
GTSSportCoupe
2LTE abuser
You're welcome! You have to use Microsoft Internet Explorer to use the manual. Chrome, Firefox etc. won't work.
The schematic I posted will show you how to wire the engine into your truck. Is pretty simple really. But because you don't have the emissions computer, you will have to have a separate glow system (manual, or maybe re-use the original system your truck came with?). I think you can ignore the throttle position sensor, NE pick-up sensor, water temp sensor and vacuum sensor. I am still not sure what to say about the Timing Control Valve. In the schematic it is a block provided with 12V and referred to as "fuel cut solenoid and timing control valve". The fuel cut solenoid is normally an on/off thing, and the timing control valve is normally variable. So what they've actually done in this case is a mystery to me. The ECU could have a transistor on that output, and vary the current flowing through the timing control valve, or it could just be on/off. More investigation/reading will be necessary.
One thing is for sure, remove all the EGR components and control VSV, and make plates to block off the holes in the exhaust/intake manifolds.
GTSSportCoupe
2LTE abuser
Worst case, it may be possible to remove the electronic TCV and put in the mechanical equivalent from a non emissions 5L injection pump....this would require re-timing of the pump, so you will need to dial gauge indicator thing that goes into the back of the pump to do that.
GTSSportCoupe
2LTE abuser
Ok @advlars , take a look at the drawing in this link: Injection pump body for Toyota HIACE LH172 1998...2005 | MegaZip online shop
Locate part numbers 22019 and 22390A on the right hand side of the drawing. Does your pump have those two things and are they wired together like they are in the picture? According to that link, 22019 is the "Solenoid Assy, Fuel Cut", and 22390A is also "Solenoid Assy, Fuel Cut". That would seem to indicate that they are truly an on/off system, and you probably apply 12V for the engine to run, and 0V to stop it. Just thinking out loud here.....
Locate part numbers 22019 and 22390A on the right hand side of the drawing. Does your pump have those two things and are they wired together like they are in the picture? According to that link, 22019 is the "Solenoid Assy, Fuel Cut", and 22390A is also "Solenoid Assy, Fuel Cut". That would seem to indicate that they are truly an on/off system, and you probably apply 12V for the engine to run, and 0V to stop it. Just thinking out loud here.....
- Thread starter
- #27
So I sat down with my electrical engineer buddy last night and tore into those diagrams trying to figure everything out.
It looks like youre right about the tps, pickup etc all being for the EGR system. (The egr system was the first thing to go when I got the engine. Thats all stripped and blocked off.) Im still really hung up on the TCV though. The emissions ECU is clearly recieving or providing it some kind of signal, but the signal its getting/sending is a total mystery to me.
Heres some relavant info loosely quoted from the video about the 2lte injector pump that seems to me to be relevant:
"The ecu performs duty control on the timing control valve so that the fuel passages on the high and low pressure sides of the TCV open and close. As duty ratio increases the fuel passage opens wider and spill quantity inceases and as a result fuel pressure drops on the high pressure side of the TCV and the roller ring rotates in the direction the plunger is rotating and injection timing is delayed....... On the other hand if duty ratio decreases... the roller ring rotates... and injection starts earlier......
The ecu uses the signal from the TPS and the NE sensor... to determine the basic injector timing. "
As best we can figure out the "duty ratio" is suggesting it gets pulses to modulate injector timing (not voltage regulation) and that the duration of the pulse determines how far open the TCV gets. Longer duration of pulse= retardation of the timing. (Feel free to correct me if im wrong here.)
Sooooo.... *assuming* my tcv is similar to the tcv in the 2lte, a constant 12v signal should cause a state of full retard.
That being said:
I dont know for sure that both TCVs work the same way
I find it hard to believe that the emissions ECU would have the same degree of control as the master ECU (especially without any feedback from a Crank position sensor for timing reference) so perhaps the degree of electronic timing control from the TCV is less than the degree of timing control the 2lte has with a real ECU?
The first wiring diagram you found does make it look like the fuel cut solenoid and the TCV have the same feed (presumably 12v constant). and the second diagram looks like they share a source as well (though that pigtail could have 2 pins with 2 different sources)
It looks like youre right about the tps, pickup etc all being for the EGR system. (The egr system was the first thing to go when I got the engine. Thats all stripped and blocked off.) Im still really hung up on the TCV though. The emissions ECU is clearly recieving or providing it some kind of signal, but the signal its getting/sending is a total mystery to me.
Heres some relavant info loosely quoted from the video about the 2lte injector pump that seems to me to be relevant:
"The ecu performs duty control on the timing control valve so that the fuel passages on the high and low pressure sides of the TCV open and close. As duty ratio increases the fuel passage opens wider and spill quantity inceases and as a result fuel pressure drops on the high pressure side of the TCV and the roller ring rotates in the direction the plunger is rotating and injection timing is delayed....... On the other hand if duty ratio decreases... the roller ring rotates... and injection starts earlier......
The ecu uses the signal from the TPS and the NE sensor... to determine the basic injector timing. "
As best we can figure out the "duty ratio" is suggesting it gets pulses to modulate injector timing (not voltage regulation) and that the duration of the pulse determines how far open the TCV gets. Longer duration of pulse= retardation of the timing. (Feel free to correct me if im wrong here.)
Sooooo.... *assuming* my tcv is similar to the tcv in the 2lte, a constant 12v signal should cause a state of full retard.
That being said:
I dont know for sure that both TCVs work the same way
I find it hard to believe that the emissions ECU would have the same degree of control as the master ECU (especially without any feedback from a Crank position sensor for timing reference) so perhaps the degree of electronic timing control from the TCV is less than the degree of timing control the 2lte has with a real ECU?
The first wiring diagram you found does make it look like the fuel cut solenoid and the TCV have the same feed (presumably 12v constant). and the second diagram looks like they share a source as well (though that pigtail could have 2 pins with 2 different sources)
- Thread starter
- #28
Oh. And I dont know what the wiring pigtail looks like on this injector pump. When I received the engine the tcv and the fuel cut solenoid had been cut, stripped and twisted together. Presumably this was how they fired it up to test the engines function, and this is how I left it hooked up when I fired it up. The dealer mangled the wiring harness and all the connectors so its all guesswork now
Any thoughts on using trial and error to figure this out?
i.e. drive it with a constant 12v and see what happens, then try with 0v and see what happens.
fwiw I did drive it around the block a few times with 12v source on the TCV. Though that was really slow. Revs probably never exceeded 1500rpm and it didnt have a turbo at the time (now it does).
Any thoughts on using trial and error to figure this out?
i.e. drive it with a constant 12v and see what happens, then try with 0v and see what happens.
fwiw I did drive it around the block a few times with 12v source on the TCV. Though that was really slow. Revs probably never exceeded 1500rpm and it didnt have a turbo at the time (now it does).
GTSSportCoupe
2LTE abuser
I did a bit more reading on my lunch today. I am beginning to wonder if Toyota is actively controlling the injection timing of the 5L to help reduce emissions. I think they could do this without the crank sensor. I think retarding timing reduces NOx emissions.
It's too bad all those wires were cut up when you received the motor.
Anyhow, further to what you found in that video, here is a piece out of the ECD V3 Denso manual regarding the TCV:
It's too bad all those wires were cut up when you received the motor.
Anyhow, further to what you found in that video, here is a piece out of the ECD V3 Denso manual regarding the TCV:
GTSSportCoupe
2LTE abuser
Well, just found something interesting. This is from the manual for the 5LE. Assuming your 5L TCV is the same as the 5LE TCV, you might have a problem. There is a warning when performing the 12V test of the TCV. It says:
"Do not apply voltage for more than 30 seconds to avoid burning out the timing control valve solenoid. If repeating this step, wait until the solenoid coils become cool enough that it can be touched by hand."
So I'm going to say that if your TCV looks like the one in the picture, leaving 12V on it may not be the best idea. I'll try to look up the part numbers of the 5LE and 5L TCV's to see if they are the same or not.
GTSSportCoupe
2LTE abuser
Just some more useless info. But this is what my 2LTE TCV looked like when I re-sealed my injection pump a couple years ago.
- Thread starter
- #32
Well. At least weve figured out that its pulse controlled and it seems to operate the way I thought it does. Longer pulse= more retarded.
Figuring something out is better than nothing.
The warning about not supplying constant feed to the TCV makes we worried though. Ive definitely done that already. Better go test and see if i burned it out....
However, Im 99% sure my TCV only has one wire, so I dont think its the same as the one pictured on the 5le. Though it may function the same way. I dont believe the manual I saw re: testing the TCV said anything about that. Ill have to look back into that...
Figuring something out is better than nothing.
The warning about not supplying constant feed to the TCV makes we worried though. Ive definitely done that already. Better go test and see if i burned it out....
However, Im 99% sure my TCV only has one wire, so I dont think its the same as the one pictured on the 5le. Though it may function the same way. I dont believe the manual I saw re: testing the TCV said anything about that. Ill have to look back into that...
GTSSportCoupe
2LTE abuser
Two wires.
GTSSportCoupe
2LTE abuser
More info:
Toyota Part Number for the 5L TCV:
Part 22390-5D070 : SOLENOID ASSY, FUEL CUT
Toyota Part Number for the 5L-E TCV:
Part 23010-67010 : VALVE ASSY, TIMING CONTROL
So they look to be two different things. There is hope still....LOL.
Toyota Part Number for the 5L TCV:
Part 22390-5D070 : SOLENOID ASSY, FUEL CUT
Toyota Part Number for the 5L-E TCV:
Part 23010-67010 : VALVE ASSY, TIMING CONTROL
So they look to be two different things. There is hope still....LOL.
GTSSportCoupe
2LTE abuser
OK, I've been in electronic pump world for so long now I'd sort of forgotten some of the mechanical pump basics. The mechanical timing mechanism goes perpendicular through the bottom of the pump (side to side). It is shown in this drawing. I'd say if your injection pump has the bumpy shaped "LH Timer Cover", then it is most definitely mechanical, and the TCV has some other function (fuel cut, based on the description). I've circled the mechanical timing device in the drawing.
GTSSportCoupe
2LTE abuser
As far as I know, that is the mechanical timing setup!!
- Thread starter
- #40
Alright, well I made great progress with my other projects yesterday and if my timing is fully mechanical the truck should be ready to test drive a bit today. Anything I should be listening out for or paying attention to in regards to the timing functioning correctly? Obviously precombustion knock will be a major red flag, but anything more subtle? Will retarded timing have any obvious symptoms or just poor performance?
