4L60E vs. 4L80E

[chicago]

Diggin around on CL, Im finding a greater abundace of the 4L80E trannies for some reason, for reasonable prices and miles.
Is there a particular reason that MOST go with the 700R/ 4L60 over the 4L80?
Ive heard that the 4L80 is stronger, but lots of folks seem to be going the other route.
Im planning on running an 01' 5.3L vortec to an NP203- 19 spline...would either work, or am I missing a problem?

Damn, Im SOOOOO FAR into this rig its scary!

Thanks in advance!

Chicago

 

[boots4]

Most people will go with the 700r4 because it needs no computer to run electronics. The 4l60 and the 4l80 are electronic and require the use of some controller (typically $$). The 4l80 is basically a t400 with an overdrive so it is the strongest of your options listed. I converted my 4l80 to manual control because I didn't want to spend the $ on a controller but in the bigger picture I only save a few $100 since I had to buy stuff for vacuum (my diesel didn't come with a vacuum pump but your gas engine would produce the vacuum necessary for a signal to the vacuum modulator that controls the line pressure for the manual conversion). I'm still dialing it in but it drives fine right now. I was able to use a 4l80 4x4 version and mate it to the 203 without buying any special adapters (details in my thread). I think any of your options will work just fine and hold up in your set-up.

 

[chicago]

Thanks for the input!
Im already having to run computer stuff since its a later model motor...Have the ECU etc that will need reprograming.
In considering that its an 01 engine, Ill have to find a tranny from 99-01 for it to work correct, or will an early mode of this tranny work? Would you happen to know wether or not it matters if its V6 or V8, or are the trannies the same regardelss?

Thanks,

Chicago

 

[boots4]

Thanks for the input!
Im already having to run computer stuff since its a later model motor...Have the ECU etc that will need reprograming.
In considering that its an 01 engine, Ill have to find a tranny from 99-01 for it to work correct, or will an early mode of this tranny work? Would you happen to know wether or not it matters if its V6 or V8, or are the trannies the same regardelss?

Thanks,

Chicago

I'm more knowledgeable about the 4l80 since that's what I decided to go with. So to answer your question about with it the 4l80 only came behind a v8 and was a 1 ton tranny. Here is some info that I've collected on changes:

94-95 had new internal and external (better) harness with re-designed epc pressure solenoid,96 they went to a high energy(better friction co-efficient) clutch pack material to match the new vortec motors,97 they changed from cast aluminum clutch pistons to stamped steel/molded rubber (better),deep factory pan, redesigned the pump body, changed from conventional internal sealing rings to vespel style, piped oil lube return from cooler directly into center support in side of trans, added some oiling grooves to sun gear and planetarys, oil circuit changed as to oil flow to planetary gears (solid shaft, old one oil traveled down the center), some bushings had oil grooves added to them, 99-some bearings were added were there used to be thrust washers, some had planetarys with 5 gears instead 4, 02-all of them got 5 gear planets, overdrive planetary and roller clutch were redesigned. Some of these mods added strength but it doesn't mean the old ones were weak or junk either.
​

As for programming your ECU to run it probably talking to someone who does that work or who has had it done will be able to answer that.

 

[mwalls54]

well for the pcm to work with the 5.3 and 4l80e you will want to find a computer from a 00-05 3/4 or 1 ton truck that has a 6.0 and 4l80e tranny. You will have to have it programmed by a tuner for the 5.3. but thats pretty easy. alot of people i know dont like the 4l80e because of the high first gear ratio and they are longer than the 60e or 700r4. in a 3/4ton truck i have seen them shift from 1st to 2nd in the 60mph range with 4.10 gears.

 

[chicago]

well for the pcm to work with the 5.3 and 4l80e you will want to find a computer from a 00-05 3/4 or 1 ton truck that has a 6.0 and 4l80e tranny. You will have to have it programmed by a tuner for the 5.3. but thats pretty easy. alot of people i know dont like the 4l80e because of the high first gear ratio and they are longer than the 60e or 700r4. in a 3/4ton truck i have seen them shift from 1st to 2nd in the 60mph range with 4.10 gears.

Now thats good info!
I have the ECU for an 01 half ton. I also had noticed that the 1st gear on the L80 is "short" as compared to the 60.

Thank you

Chicago

 

[wagon4wd]

Now thats good info!
I have the ECU for an 01 half ton. I also had noticed that the 1st gear on the L80 is "short" as compared to the 60.

Overdrive's a bit taller on the 60 than 80, but not all that substantial of a difference.

 

[Tinker]

1st gear is already short on a 4L60E, so the 80 must really be a crawler! The 80 consumes more power but will handle more stock. A 60 can be beefed up to handle as much power as a stock 80, though.

If you're in a smog control area or ever move to one or sell the rig to someone who is in one you have to keep the same engine/trans/catalytic converter configuration as the donor vehicle or it won't pass emissions. And I'm guessing the ECU must match too (wasn't a problem on mine, but the cat(s) were). This is a federal EPA rule.

 

[mwalls54]

Maybe some of you all miss read my post but 1st gear on a 80e are high and 60/65e are lower

Gear ratios for 4l80e, 1st 2.48, 2nd 1.48, 3rd 1 to1, 4th .75

Gear Ratios for 4l60e, 1st 3.06, 2nd 1.75, 3rd 1.00, 4th 0.70

 

[Mace]

1st gear is already short on a 4L60E, so the 80 must really be a crawler! The 80 consumes more power but will handle more stock. A 60 can be beefed up to handle as much power as a stock 80, though.

If you're in a smog control area or ever move to one or sell the rig to someone who is in one you have to keep the same engine/trans/catalytic converter configuration as the donor vehicle or it won't pass emissions. And I'm guessing the ECU must match too (wasn't a problem on mine, but the cat(s) were). This is a federal EPA rule.

I keep hearing the tranny thing. But I cannot find any legistlation that states this. Do you have a link?

I cannot see how anyone would know what tranny came behind a certain motor. The motor is defined by a casting #. Those #'s are pretty damn open for what the motor was installed in and what parts were bolted to it..

 

[chicago]

Planning on making it smog legal, but Im registered in Carson City, so...I dont HAVE to smog it. However, Im of the opinion that the future will hold smog regs there too. Im trying to plan ahead.

Mwall54,
I got what you had said. The L60 has a lower 1st gear than the L80.

Just so I know, its the "sun gear" in the 4L60E that is weak component in this tranny, correct? Im assuming that when I have the out put shaft swapped that this can be upgraded as well?
Apparenty in order to run the 203 behind it, the output shaft has to be swapped?

Thanks for the input

Chicago

 

[mwalls54]

I am running a built 4l65e in my silverado ss and i have 600hp at the crank. I have broke input and output shafts on stock trannys, In my built tranny i have everything upgraded internally. Have you already bought a tranny? if you have one rebuilt i would go with upgraded cluches and shift kit and it will be fine.

 

[wagon4wd]

I keep hearing the tranny thing. But I cannot find any legistlation that states this. Do you have a link?

I cannot see how anyone would know what tranny came behind a certain motor. The motor is defined by a casting #. Those #'s are pretty damn open for what the motor was installed in and what parts were bolted to it..

Sorry, no link. The engine itself doesn't matter, it's the computer. with the advent of OBD-II, a lot of ECUs gained knowledge of the transmission's operation. Lack of this link causes the check engine light to illuminate.

Granted, one could probably program this logic out with LS1edit or whatever.

 

[Mace]

Sorry, no link. The engine itself doesn't matter, it's the computer. with the advent of OBD-II, a lot of ECUs gained knowledge of the transmission's operation. Lack of this link causes the check engine light to illuminate.

Granted, one could probably program this logic out with LS1edit or whatever.

This makes more sense than a blanket statement of what is legal or not. Everytime I have heard the tranny thing it was more along the lines of the reasoning why beadlocks are illegal

 

[wagon4wd]

This makes more sense than a blanket statement of what is legal or not. Everytime I have heard the tranny thing it was more along the lines of the reasoning why beadlocks are illegal

It's probably also worth pointing out that emissions equipment (and therefore ECU programming) can differ based on whether a vehicle is manual or automatic, and this is nothing new - this goes back to the late sixties with american stuff at least.

 

[Tinker]

Mace -
I'll try to find a link to the info. The Colorado EPA folks are the ones who steered me to the federal law which I read. The transmission is considered part of the configuration that is certified by the EPA as being legal. Headers & ignition are OK as long as they've been approved. You can do anything you want behind the last cat. You can do anything you want before the MAF & TPS. You can't do anything (obvious) between the MAF/TPS & the cat(s) besides headers. A cam would be hard to detect unless it caused more emissions than the configuration was certified for.

 

[ntsqd]

On the YJ from Hell (LS1/4L60E) the way the Referee put it to me was that with OBD II all parts from the first engine sensor in the intake to the last sensor in the exhaust have to be stock or carry an E.O. number. The fuel system also had to be a clone of the donor vehicle or the matched configuration as well. By clone he meant that the fuel tank and all related plumbing had to be functionally the same as the donor or the config match. It did not have to be bend for bend exactly the same, nor did the fuel tank require an E.O. number, though DOT has their own requirements for fuel tanks and I suspect that few aftermarket tanks are tested to meet those specs.

The reason for the trans requirement is that manual trans have issues with spiking rich during a shift. A friend with a Sube 2.5RS has had trouble from new with killing cats because of this. Autos don't have that problem. The programming for an auto trans ECU version is considerably different than one for a manual trans ECU. We're being pushed into autos whether we want them or not because of this.

 

[boots4]

...i have seen them shift from 1st to 2nd in the 60mph range with 4.10 gears.

Do you remember the rpm and what tire size? Mostly because I don't have the rpm but I am running large meats however I could never get to 60mph in 1st.

Chicago, if you are going to run a doubler then the deeper first gear won't matter. Closer ratios will keep you in the power band better.

 

[mwalls54]

Do you remember the rpm and what tire size? Mostly because I don't have the rpm but I am running large meats however I could never get to 60mph in 1st.

I dont have the log file on this computer but i will have it tonite. the truck was a 2500HD with 285/75/16. I will check the gear ratio on the pcm tune too.

 

[Mace]

It's probably also worth pointing out that emissions equipment (and therefore ECU programming) can differ based on whether a vehicle is manual or automatic, and this is nothing new - this goes back to the late sixties with american stuff at least.

I have never seen a vehicles emissions differ based on what tranny it came with. I have seen slight tweaks of the fuel mapping based on tranny choice (auto's can have a slightly more agressive fuel curve to deal with the power consumption of the auto) But never a difference in actual emissions equipment.

Please dig up the rules, I would love to know if there is somethign I am missing.

Again, there are multiple manual transmissions and automatic transmissions that can be configured with a certain motor from the factory. That does not mean that you have to install the exact same transmission that a car originally came with. It means that the combo had to be available somewhere. Do some research, Vettes still come with manual trannies as do pickup trucks. I have also never seen the inspectors ask to see the actual computer that you are running to verify what tranny it was designed for. If it throws codes, then you have an issue, but as was said, a lot of the computers now a days are essentially open code that can be reprogrammed to do what you need. The engine swap is based on the casting number on the block. Not the heads, cam, valves or anything else. As long as the necessary emissions are there and it passes smog, you are good.

EPA has certified alterations in cats. Running one instead of three for example.
The EPA has also taken to adopting Californias standards as much of a PITA as that is. And honestly, it is not that big of a deal.

1st at 60 mph would be screamin.. My 60 with a C6 and 35" tires does 80 ish at 5K in second.
A direct drive with 4.10 gearing, 35" tires and a 2.48 ratio in the transmission is pushing 5900 rpm