3B starter compatibility

[gizmo]

Hi there, my starter motor (3B engine, '82 BJ42) seems to have given up and I've been looking for a used replacement. I've taken it apart, cleaned it up, but still no luck.

I noticed that the starter motors for other Toyotas (Hilux, Hiace, Liteace), also newer models (up to '90 I suppose) look the same on photos...

My question is: Are they all equal? Will a hilux starter motor off a 2.8L engine work in my 3.4L 3B or are they just similar on the outside? Or do I have to get one specifically for my engine?

Any advice appreciated!

cheers,
thomas

 

[wesintl]

welcome newb.

Where are you located?

There are a couple threads about this in the search tool
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/155071-3b-starter-died.html
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/220667-crazy-starter.html

you could also have it rebuilt.

 

[gizmo]

Hi, thanks for those links, found some interesting sites with part numbers!

I'm in New Zealand, and parts, though available, are usually quite expensive. I could get a reconditioned starter for about US$260, but am hoping to get by cheaper if it's only some parts...

 

[lostmarbles]

Had a bit of a search and the closest 2LT starter I could find on the Internet (with about 15 min searching) right now is this one in Oz

2LT Starter Motor - eBay, Other Car Parts, Accessories, Car Parts, Accessories, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 16-Nov-08 12:07:48 AEDST)

But I think you're probably better to try local wreckers in ChCh Gizmo. (Or keep an eye out on Trademe.)

(PS. I like the idea of swapping the "nose cone" from your 3B starter onto one of these diesel Hilux/Surf starters! The Hilux/Surf is much more readily available here in NZ than a BJ40 or BJ42 donor.)

 

[gizmo]

Thanks lostmarbles for that tip. I'm not too familiar with Hilux motors, but I found these on trademe, look very similar to mine, what do you reckon?:

Toyota Hilux Surf 1985 # STARTER MOTOR # for sale - TradeMe.co.nz - New Zealand
hilux 2.8 (3L) starter for sale - TradeMe.co.nz - New Zealand

cheers

 

[lostmarbles]

I'm on unfamiliar ground with this nose-cone swap idea but they both LOOK like they would be suitable candidates.

Anybody able to confirm this?


PS. This site offers one of those starters new for $350NZ (which is a LOT of dosh I know!)

http://www.fwdspares.co.nz/parts

 

[lostmarbles]

;..... what do you reckon?:............cheers

Hey Gizmo. I've been thinking more about this. We may not get any further help here unless another Kiwi or Aussi stumbles on this thread whose done these "nose-jobs" before. (Probably unlikely to happen!)

I say this because I don't think anyone in USA/Canada is familiar with Hilux/Surf models. (I believe over there they call these same vehicles "minitrucks" and they probably have different model designations with perhaps fewer engine sizes available.)

But personally I'd be tempted to give any starter off a similar-vintage Hilux/Surf a try -provided the owner can confirm it is a 12V 2.5kW gear-reduction starter.

Your existing starter will be 2.5kW -although here I'm assuming you have the 12V (not 24V) version of the BJ42 cruiser - that was sold new in both Oz and NZ.

But the decision is entirely yours. (I won't accept any blame if you find you can't transplant your nose onto it. He He. )

And I'd be keen to find out how you get on if you decide to give it a try!

 

[gizmo]

Hi Tom,

thanks for your input. Yes, you might be right on the different model variations. And yes, I have a 12V NZ new model.

I've been looking for more details on the 2L (2.4L) or 3L (2.8L) Hilux engine starter motors, bit can't seem to find the power specs for them.

My assumption is that the bigger engine, the more power required by the starter, right? The question remains, if the 3L starter can provide 2.5kW... I might get that one off trademe and give it a try.

cheers,
thomas

 

[lostmarbles]

...I've been looking for more details on the 2L (2.4L) or 3L (2.8L) Hilux engine starter motors, bit can't seem to find the power specs for them.

My assumption is that the bigger engine, the more power required by the starter, right? The question remains, if the 3L starter can provide 2.5kW...

Bear in mind that my 3 litre B engine (1979 vintage) employs exactly the same stater as your 3.4 litre 3B engine Thomas. So on that basis I think the 2.8 litre Hilux may employ the same 2.5kW starter as the 2.4 litre.

You're right in that a higher capacity engine does tend to require a more powerful starter motor - but I think Toyota also tended to standardise on certain "starter motor power ratings" that it then used in a range of engine models (so the lower-engine-capacity-models sometimes had the benefit of "surplus starter-motor-power").

And I'm not surprised that those trademe sellers can't tell you the power rating. (I had a feeling they might not be able to.)

This is all that my starter motor tells me (and I have been careful over the years to avoid damaging that sticker):



There's no mention of the power rating on my starter and as far as I can make out, those letters are "7S16" or perhaps "TS16".

 

[lostmarbles]

Had another thought here Thomas

Had a squizz at the EPC:






This tells me that there is a trap in that various Hiluxes employ 0.8kW, 1.0kW, 1.4kW, 2.0kW and 2.5kW etc starters. (Not sure if they're all the "gear-reduction" type.) So perhaps you should find one with a sticker that says either

• 28100-54061
• 28100-54220 or
• 28100-54090

Because the EPC says these are all 2.5kW

Edit later: PS. This last number is likely to be the one I'd go for Thomas. That's because I see it is the same part number that a member has quoted as having done a successful nose-transplant on. (They said "28100-54090-84" and I'm guessing the "84" means it was 1984 vintage.) Edit much later: 84 means "remanufactured"

PPS. I see the 1980's HIACE line also employed "2L" and "3L" engine models with 2.5kW starters having model numbers 28100-54052 and 28100-54220. Perhaps these are candidates for nose transplants too?

 

[seapotato]

this all reminds me ( seeing as I need a starter for my 3b too) about ten years ago, my dad met a guy , who just wandered over to bs when he saw my cruiser in a parking lot , and he told him, that some years before that he was touring with his bj42 down in the states and the starter packed it in, and he found a ford starter that fit, and used it.

being 24v he said the ford starter only lasted a month or so, but it was cheap and got him around when he was down there.

Unfortunately, I wasn't there it was a day my dad borrowed my truck, and he never go into the details of what model of ford it was, ( yes I gave him s*** for not getting details when he told me all this. )

but it makes you think that there's a good chance that starter motors cross over to more than a few vehicles.

cheers,
ryan

 

[lostmarbles]

this all reminds me .....otors cross over to more than a few vehicles. cheers,ryan

Hi Ryan.

Yeah I find all this "donor vehicle possibility thing" very interesting. Especially where it is helpful for my own vehicle's sake (should the need ever arise).

I've spent "all morning" on the EPC now and I think I was wrong earlier in suspecting that Toyota tended to standardise on certain "starter motor power ratings". I'm now finding Hilux/Surf/4runner models (all of them are the SAME to me which shows how little I know about them) with an almost infinite variation is starter motor power specifications. (I've even found some that are 2.7kW!)

So I think if I was Thomas, I'd have a good look at the EPC myself and find a starter motor off one of those "minitrucks" (whatever you like to call them) that has a sticker intact enough to show its part number. And I'd go for a part number that relates to a 2.5kW motor. And as a safeguard, I wouldn't probably stray too far away from my own vehicle's age (in case they changed the "nose-cone to starter-motor/relay bolt/screw pattern" in latter years).

Incidentally - In searching the EPC, I found it is NOT uncommon for a smaller-capacity engine to have a more powerful starter motor. And some (not all) of those 2LT engines (I think Thomas said they are just 2.4 litre engine capacity) have some of the most powerful starters (2.5kW).

Most of the 3LT (2.8 litre?) engines on the EPC appeared to employ less-powerful starters.

But I don't want to put Thomas off trying to "do the nose transplant thing" here. In his shoes I'd be keen to give it a go.

 

[Moe R]

05-11-08, 05:46 PM #18 wesintl
IH8MUD Lifer



Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Denver
TLCA# 4180
Posts: 3,546


the 12 v from toyota 28100-54090-84 which is a 2.5 kw gear reduction. then swap the nose cone. It was like $120 from toyota. I'll sell you my almost new contacts from my old one if you want.


__________________
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IMHO this worked really well for me. 3B starts really strong.

 

[83bj41]

sorry to butt in here boys, but i have a 24v starter off a 2b if it's any use??

 

[gizmo]

I'm keen to give the nose job a try, if I can get hold of a 2/3L starter that I know has 2.5kW. The problem is that most of these old ones don't really have a sticker anymore and it might be hard to figure that out just from knowing the car that it came from.

Tom, I found out the same thing about those hilux engines, that the starter motor might be anything between a wide range of kW's! If there was a system behind the choice of starter on a given engine, it might be easier to find a suitable one...

Thanks for your offer 83bj41. I hear that apparently the only difference between a 24V and a 12V is the motor, so if that is still fine in mine, it might be feasible to swap the motor. I'll have to check if my motor is fine though.

I'll look into it more on monday as I'm stuck with other stuff tomorrow.

As I told a friend today: I could just go and buy a new one, but that would be too easy...

cheers,
thomas

 

[Moe R]

I assume your rig is 12v. If so, call your nearest Toyota dealership and order a 28100-54090-84. Where u are they probably have it in stock. This is a remaned starter. Trade the nosecone and bring back the old one for a core refund. It's like having a new starter. But it's way cheeper than buying one that was made for 3B motor. Not to mention that it's better than putting in an old starter.

 

[gizmo]

I just checked with toyota, and getting a 28100-54090 starter would cost me over NZ$3000, haha!

anyway, I'm having trouble finding a 2.5kW 2L/3L starter, but might have found a 24V 3B starter... don't know how much use that will be

 

[MOTERRA]

i had mine rebuilt by an alternator and motor shop here in canada and it was 120 can dollars. but thats if you have one thats fixable?

 

[gizmo]

yeah, I took mine to an electrician and he quoted a rebuild at $700!! Took it apart completely and gave it back to me in pieces in a box. I had the impression he was more interested in selling me a new one... I suppose I could give it another try somewhere else.

 

[gizmo]

Alright, I got the starter problem fixed! Starts up like a beauty!

I'll explain what I did, maybe someone else can benefit from this and save themselves some time fiddling around or looking for a specific starter. This is what I ended up doing:

Since the electrician that had looked at my starter had actually clipped some wires in the magnetic switch, and it was quite buggered anyway, I decided to look for a replacement. A friend had a 24V starter in pieces and we mixed and matched pieces to test out operation. Interestingly, the 24V starter ran fine on 12V without load, but as soon as it was built into the car, it didn't do anything.

As 3B starters are quite rare down here (especially if you can't wait a couple of weeks for one to show up) and I did not want to spend the money in a shop, I looked around a bit for starters that would work with the "nose-job" mentioned before.

Turns out that all Toyota diesel starters built in the 80-90ies (at least for landcruisers, hilux, hiace, 4runners, etc) use very similar starters, even though they differ in engine sizes. Some of the components, as the clutch assembly (see picture) are identical in all of them.

On the other hand, they differ significantly in the nose cone (next picture, 3B left, 2LTE right) and sometimes in the power output. Power varies between 2.0, 2.5, 2.7kW and it is not evident which power is used just by knowing the engine type. All starters I found for Hilux's were only 2.0kW, even though the part specs show that the same car could have been sold with a 2.5 or 2.7kW starter.

I ended up finding a wrecked Landcruiser Prado (early 90's, 2.4L 2LTE engine) that had the starter wesintl talked about (28100-54090). I switched the nose cone, which was the only bit that was significantly different and it worked!

While scanning the EPC I found that there are quite a few starters that would work, as long as they have enough power. I'm not sure if a 2.0kW starter would have cranked the 3B, but I would have given it a try if I would not have found this one. Oh, and don't try a 24V starter on 12V, does not work...

Cheers!