2f or not 2F?

[Full Throttle 500]

New 2 Mud and forums so be gently at first...lol

Bought my first Toyota on Friday. 1984 60 Wagon with a 2F and 4 speed. After 4 days of reading post through out the Web and here, and two days of working on it to get it running ok (I think). Then now 4 days of trying to locate parts. I am thinking about doing an LS swap. This thing has no power, you give me about 60 car lengths I might be able to merge into traffic. Maybe I am not giving this thing a chance. I am use to high horsepower 4x4's and hot rods.

I want to use the truck for Daily use, drive to wheeling adventures and back, Fishing, Hunting, Camping. Ultimately I want to drive her to Moab from Houston, wheel some scenic trails, and drive her home next April.

I want to keep a standard if possible. And run 33's or 35's.

1. What are the pros and cons to an engine swap for those who have done one.
2. What other engine swaps work well in these trucks ie 22RE, Rotary 12, etc.
3. Should I expect more out of this engine

Thanks for any advice and info.

 

[norsk]

I ran into the same issues of 2F parts and other costs and still would end up with a tractor motor.

I did my swap with a Gen I 350 I built. Will have more torque than the 2F

Learned alot, the most important was I should have done a Gen III 5.3L. I am doing a 5.3L swap into 2nd project vehicle, a 1984 GMC 1500 4x4. Costs a lot less. Doing most of my own work, except for welding.

140k miles 5.3l was $600 plus $100 for the shipping, in Salt Lake City. I am about 50 miles out from there.
I have done a "refresh" on heads, new rod bearings and bolts (ARP) and new rings. When my Gen I wears out, I can put a 5.3l in there, with fuel changes.

Build thread is below in my sig line

 

[Haggis]

Don't mean to hijack but I hear a lot about GM SBC swaps but never a Tundra V8 swap. Too challenging/expensive? Just curious.

 

[Output Shaft]

I'm still living the 2F dream (or nightmare), depending on how you want to see it. When the 2F is running as it should, it keeps up with traffic fine on the flats. On a mountain grade it is the slowest car climbing the hill.

In fact, now that I've crawled out from under my denial fantasy (just for this post mind you)... The hard truth is that the FJ60 with the 2F is the slowest car on the road.
Only thing slower is a full cement truck.

But the problem really isn't the HP of the 2F. The "problem" is that all the other cars have modern, more powerful and efficient engines that are always passing us.

The "problem" isn't that the 2F is so slow (since speed is relative), the problem is that everyone else is driving too freaking fast.

In the end really, the " problem" is our ego.

When I'm driving the cruiser down in Mexico, I never think the car doesn't have enough power. In fact, down there, the 2F is the PERFECT engine. It seems like it was designed for that type of third world environment... Because, come to think of it... It was.

 

[Slow Left]

That's some pretty heavy stuff, OS...and exactly why I love the 60...because I can do everything else but drive fast.

EDIT:

"Toyota Landcruiser...Living life at the speed of one Revolution at a time..."

 

[White Stripe]

Most people swap gm motors, a few do ford motors, some do dodge diesels. If you venture too far off the norm of motor swaps, you may have issues with getting help since it will be uncharted territory. Go with something common, and that has lots of aftermarket support. The 2f is just too small of a motor for a 60 if you wanna really move. Just remember though with more power you put more strain on other parts like the axles if you wheel fairly hard. I think the easiest route is just to buy one off of craigslist thats already got a v8, they usually sell for pretty reasonable prices. Less than if you did the swap yourself usually.

 

[Haggis]

Well stated OS. I love cruising in my 60 on the flats but Mts. are a bitch. I've even been passed by a VW hippie bus Lol.

 

[gregnash]

That's some pretty heavy stuff, OS...and exactly why I love the 60...because I can do everything else but drive fast.

Yeah I agree and I have been passed by one as well. Thing is that we do not drive our trucks to go fast or anything like that, we drive them for the nostalgia and the cool factor.

 

[NCFJ]

I get the nostalgia and the cool factor and how going slow is OK. The OP asked about using the vehicle as a DD and on today's roads the 2F in the 60 series is at a distinct disadvantage. That is just a plain fact. It is not a matter of cruising at 70 MPH on a flat highway, it'll get there. Merging into rush hour interstate traffic is where it is a hazard. Passing another car doing 45MPH on a two lane is taking your life in your hands. There is no doubt that in 90% of the world it is the perfect vehicle, but as a DD on roads in the USA it is simply under powered.

You put a factory original FJ60 in restored condition next to a swapped version in same condition and I would choose the original, but I would not expect it to do DD duties.

 

[salvage60]

Well said OP. I do not see a 60 as a daily driver although I have used mine on and off for that for the last 16 years. While it may suffer on the freeway you should spend some time on the trail where the tractor motor truly comes to life before writing it off. The only swap I would consider would be a toyota oil burner if the california smog nazis would allow it and that would be for efficiency not speed.

 

[Full Throttle 500]

First thanks for the info as it is greatly appreciated. After more research and being passed by grandpa in is electric chair, I have finally came up with a plan.

I am going to get the OME heavy duty 4" lift first and measure for clearances for the future engine swap. For the time being I am going to do a SMOG delete, tune up, and adjust the valves while gather engine swap parts.

I have came down to either an LS with a stock LS6 cam with a good tune (this in my wheel house) or a Toyota V8 if I can find a good donor vehicle ie: a 4x4 manual Tundra. (Thanks Haggis for that suggestion)

I still have to do more research on the Toyota to Toyota swap. It would be kinda cool to stay with a Toyota setup, But Have Fallen Short On FIND info.

My wife put the hault on pulling the engine out of my hotrod which was a good thing.

Again many thanks and I will update its progress under this thread.

 

[Full Throttle 500]

First thanks for the info as it is greatly appreciated. After more research and being passed by grandpa in is electric chair, I have finally came up with a plan.

I am going to get the OME heavy duty 4" lift first and measure for clearances for the future engine swap. For the time being I am going to do a SMOG delete, tune up, and adjust the valves while gather engine swap parts.

I have came down to either an LS with a stock LS6 cam with a good tune (this in my wheel house) or a Toyota V8 if I can find a good donor vehicle ie: a 4x4 manual Tundra. (Thanks Haggis for that suggestion)

I still have to do more research on the Toyota to Toyota swap. It would be kinda cool to stay with a Toyota setup, but have fallen short on finding info.

My wife put the hault on pulling the engine out of my hotrod which was a good thing.

Again many thanks and I will update its progress under this thread.

 

[gregnash]

Look for the Toyota V8 swap thread in here.. There is one guy, whom I havent seen around in quite a while, that was an engineer/designer for Toyota and had done one with the V8 from a Tundra and was working on another with the V8 from an LS400 Lexus. Those will have your best information on what is needed for what many call the Toyota Elitist swap.

Seems like you already know a lot about Vortec's and what not but have heard very very good things about BD Turnkey and the engines they get.

 

[Full Throttle 500]

Look for the Toyota V8 swap thread in here.. There is one guy, whom I havent seen around in quite a while, that was an engineer/designer for Toyota and had done one with the V8 from a Tundra and was working on another with the V8 from an LS400 Lexus. Those will have your best information on what is needed for what many call the Toyota Elitist swap.

Seems like you already know a lot about Vortec's and what not but have heard very very good things about BD Turnkey and the engines they get.

BD turnkey is one of the better places to get a genIII engine, especially if you are not familiar with the LS engines and have not done many swaps before. The other good thing is if I remember correctly they run every single engine and send a universal swap kit with their engines. I have not used them yet because any swaps I do, I by a running donor vehicle. I found it is the easiest way to do a swap correctly for a ton of reasons.

1. You have the Vin number for the dealer when you have to by dealer only parts.
2. You have a title for when/if DPS has questions about were the engine came from
3.You have an existing platform to work off of when build and placing the engine into the new platform
4. You have all the nickel and dime items on hand from the other vehicle that you may need to get it to run.
5. If the donor runs and you want to do mods to the engine then you can do the mods and test everything before placing it into the new platform (I highly recommend this one from experience)
6. You can graft alot of the donor vehicles engineered systems into yours if you do your homework first ie: a/c system, fuel system, misc brackets for computers and other items, fly by wire systems, and alot more.

And there are alot of other reasons for me.

Don't get me wrong, BD is the way to go if all you need is the engine and swap kit and is cheaper than buying a donor vehicle. I just try to go the other way if I can.

I will have to look for that thread. I am still learning how to navigate the forum. Thanks for the info.

 

[gregnash]

Yeah you are correct (as far as I have read, havent used them but they are local to me so when the time comes I will). They do a full carfax on the vehicle that the engine comes from so you actually do get a VIN if you get that along with the purchase (which I believe you do). Their engines come with your swap kit, harness, can be tuned to how you like it when they run the engine (think slight extra charge) and a few other goodies. I am sure they are more expensive than just going to the junkyard and grabbing a full vehicle or something but to me the extra work they put in, seeing as I am a newbie to all this engine stuff, is worth its weight in gold.

 

[NCFJ]

Most reputable salvage yards that deal in pull out LSX series motors ( or any other for that matter) will give you a swap out guarantee on the pull out motor you buy. If they move a lot of motors they will have run the motor before pulling and all the harness parts etc will be there. Be very specific about what comes with the motor, don't ask, tell them what you require. I negotiated a one year parts only warranty on the motors. These motors are in every major salvage yard in the country dealing in newer vehicles and they are well aware of their popularity for use in swaps into every vehicle imaginable.

 

[cwwfj60]

you definitely need to get used to slow, but a well tuned, good running 2f shouldn't have too much of a problem merging with traffic. When I first got mine it was pretty weak, I slowly worked on it over the years and after a head rebuild due to a burnt valve, a couple of carb rebuilds and tune ups, and the last thing that was most noticeable was my distributor that went bad. After getting all of this done it would run SOOO much better, especially with a properly working advance. I've got the 33'' overdrive with the original 4spd and it would have not problem merging, keeping up with, and passing traffic on occasion. I usually tried to cruise under 3k, but this provided all the power I could ever need and anyone ever needs........

Now as far as wants.....

My motor started knocking a couple months ago and I am planning a 3fe swap with a h55f 5 spd. 3fe was cheap and available and I would still consider leaving the 2f and selling the 3fe if a 2f was available and reasonable in my area. I got a great deal on the h55f thanks to beno and that was going in one way or the other. This will provide me with a strong, still toyota, still straight 6, low end torque, plus better efficiency and lower rpms for cruising. This was the way I wanted to go because fast is not for me or for my cruiser.

But for other cruisers.....

I've done a toyota 4.7 swap. Not too difficult if your inclined but not too easy either. Check out the hardcore section, there is a couple of swaps in there and also "project x and x2" is pretty cool (and sad). I love these motors, very smooth and pretty efficient. The swap will be super custom though and will require an automatic if you want to keep your budget in check. The h151f 5 spd from overseas are super expensive.

Now the LS motor is going to be your bang for the buck, power machine that will be easy to work on, pretty easy to swap and plus the adapters to keep whatever part of the toyota you want. Lot of aftermarket support and documentation on the swap and it will outperform a 4.7 all day but it says chevy on it.....so if your ok with that, and unhappy with your power, swap in the chevy v8 of some sort and go with it.

2. What other engine swaps work well in these trucks ie 22RE, Rotary 12, etc.

^^^what were you smokin when you typed that??? If you did either one of those you would really learn the meaning of slow

 

[Chris Cahill]

Since you are in TX and the vehicle is exempt from emissions, I recommend doing a proper compression check and de-smog first, along with replacement of the manifold gasket and a carb rebuild and tune up (with valve adjustment). I was surprised at the increase in power when I did all of that. It will never be a race car, but you should not fear merging on the freeway or keeping up with anyone in normal traffic (not to say that Houston traffic is normal).

There are some good links here on MUD for the de-smog. If you don't want to rebuild the carb yourself, send it to Jim C. at TLC Performance (fj40jim here on MUD) and have him do it. He did a couple for me with great results. He also sells first class de-smog parts.

Good luck and enjoy! The 2F is a beast, they just suffer from neglect and dead/dying smog components.

 

[MB BeigeFJ60]

...I recommend doing a proper compression check and de-smog first, along with replacement of the manifold gasket and a carb rebuild and tune up (with valve adjustment). The 2F is a beast, they just suffer from neglect and dead/dying smog components.

Chris, mine is getting all that done starting with Manifold gaskets (both Intake and Exhaust) and Carburetor rebuilt before a de-smog since I am in CA and if I were to de-smog I might as well do an engine swap. Climbing hills on CA freeways with pedal to the metal while Prius C passes me is nothing short of annoying.

I am nowhere near convinced on 2F being a beast (assume 4 Speed) even at fully de-smog-ed and tip-top condition.

Like I have mentioned in my previous thread I am 2F'n Tired of the 2F!

 

[Chris Cahill]

By "beast" I meant in terms of low end torque and durability. It will never be a speed demon but it's more than adequate for the type of short-trip road driving I do with mine. The only hills around here are the freeway overpasses though.

If I lived in a state without a smog exemption or wanted a true daily driver or long range road vehicle, I would have to agree that an engine swap makes sense, at least eventually.