2f 180 degrees out of time? (1 Viewer)

[JohnnyFish]

Did a previous owner/engine builder install this cam upside down?

In an effort to finally get Ichiro on the road, I'm setting the timing. Trying to set the timing. '78 Canadian FJ45 with a 2F, just like the green one at the museum. It's been running hot, and the current theory is that the timing has been very retarded, so it's dumping unburned fuel in the exhaust, which heats up bigly. Empirically the under-hood temperatures have been unusually hot anytime I have tried to drive it.

I painted the timing line and dot on the flywheel. I then hooked up a cheap (no dial) timing light to spark plug wire #1 and couldn't see the timing marks in the window over the starter. Twisted the distributor back and forth and couldn't find those marks. On a whim I got under the truck and there they were on the opposite side of the flywheel from where they should be. This is a screen grab of a frame from this video looking up from under the passenger side at the flywheel as the timing light flashes.

Since there's an alignment dowel on the flywheel (presumably... I've had the head off but I haven't been in the bottom of this engine), the only explanation for this is that the cam is installed 180 degrees out of time. Is that right? It's the only explanation I can think of if the flywheel alignment dowel is present.

The distributor is stuck in its bore, and my only way of adjusting it is with a long dowel and a mallet pushing on the ears of the distributor. I advanced it until the starter strained, then backed it off about five mallet whacks. It actually seems to run great (link to quick video). I've been treating the disti bore to a mix of ATF and mineral spirits in the hopes that it'll eventually spin by hand.

 

[pb4ugo]

1st you need to see where the timing marks on the flywheel are with the #1 piston at the top of its bore. And then try to find tdc on the compression stoke and see where the line on the flywheel tdc mark is in relation to the pointer and dist rotor orientation. This will let you see if something is off, either flywheel mounted incorrectly or the timing gear marks are off or dist. Right now I suspect the dist is off and #1 is not #1, You need to get the dist to rotate without hitting it and being able to remove it.

 

[pb4ugo]

If the dist is 180* off, the light would still register at the flywheel marks and pointer. 180* off makes #6 cyldr the #1 cylinder.

 

[pb4ugo]

Someone may have had problems installing the distributor and their fix was to reposition the spark plug wires one way or the other or not. You can put the timing light pickup on each wire and point the light at the timing window and see if the flywheel marks appear, then time it from there.

 

[Pighead]

the only explanation for this is that the cam is installed 180 degrees out of time. Is that right?

Probably not. It would be very hard to install a cam backwards or even out of synch with the crankshaft. Anybody putting an engine together will align the timing mark on the cam gear with the mark on the crank gear. You can, of course, check that by pulling off the timing cover and looking to see for yourself.
Much more probable is that the dizzy is inserted incorrectly. You would have to pull the dizzy to fix that. You can check for that with the dizzy cap off, slowly rotate by hand and watch the dizzy rotor and the flywheel at the same time and see where the timing marks are and where the rotor is pointing both times the flywheel marks come into view. Also check to make sure that the plug wires are in their correct places in the dizzy cap and have not been moved around to compensate for a mis-stabbed dizzy.
I would get back to basics and pull your dizzy, find and verify TDC #1 on compression stroke and re-stab the dizzy so that you are 100% sure it is correct and then proceed.

 

[77mustard40]

Larry take a breath. If it were me I'd remove the valve cover, pull the plugs and manually rotate the engine to TDC making sure that #1 is on the compression stroke (valves on 1 will be fully closed). Pull the dizzy cap and check to see where the rotor is, it should be pointed between plugs 3 and 4 which will correspond to spark going to 1. If its not right, then you are in the correct position to reseat the dizzy correctly, making sure it fully seats and engages the oil pump at the bottom. You can use a flashlight and long screwdriver to align the oil pump slot so that it will match the desired position of the rotor after the dizzy is in.

One you confirm the dizzy is properly installed you are ready to reassemble and start it making sure you have oil pressure on start up. Now grab your fancy timing light and set the timing to the desired advance using the BB which should now be visible through the timing cover.

Edit: Sorry I finally read the last paragraph of post #1, I'm doubling down on getting the distributor right which means you really should be thinking about removing it. Is in the correct distributor or some knock off replacement? I've never seen a distributor that won't rotate freely in the block, that said there was a thread a month or so ago where someone had a distributor that would not fit into the block (which was the first time I had heard of that). Maybe some pics of that side of the engine will help the community with your problem.

 

[JohnnyFish]

I rotated the flywheel to put the line on the needle, confirmed TDC and the rotor is near the 5 plug. So, yeah, PO stabbed the distributor 60-ish degrees off. Now I’m under the truck with a vacuum-line capped extension and a rubber mallet, tappy-tap-tapping the stuck distributor out of its hole so I can reposition it.

 

[JohnnyFish]

Larry take a breath. If it were me I'd remove the valve cover, pull the plugs and manually rotate the engine to TDC making sure that #1 is on the compression stroke (valves on 1 will be fully closed). Pull the dizzy cap and check to see where the rotor is, it should be pointed between plugs 3 and 4 which will correspond to spark going to 1. If its not right, then you are in the correct position to reseat the dizzy correctly, making sure it fully seats and engages the oil pump at the bottom. You can use a flashlight and long screwdriver to align the oil pump slot so that it will match the desired position of the rotor after the dizzy is in.

One you confirm the dizzy is properly installed you are ready to reassemble and start it making sure you have oil pressure on start up. Now grab your fancy timing light and set the timing to the desired advance using the BB which should now be visible through the timing cover.

Edit: Sorry I finally read the last paragraph of post #1, I'm doubling down on getting the distributor right which means you really should be thinking about removing it. Is in the correct distributor or some knock off replacement? I've never seen a distributor that won't rotate freely in the block, that said there was a thread a month or so ago where someone had a distributor that would not fit into the block (which was the first time I had heard of that). Maybe some pics of that side of the engine will help the community with your problem.

Seems like a factory dizzy to me.

 

[charliemeyer007]

You can put your finger over the plug hole and feel the compression stroke on your way to TDC. Second way is both push rods will be loose at TDC. I have never seen a dizzy so tight I had to beat on it to get it out. Good luck, I hope it works out without damage.

 

[JohnnyFish]

You can put your finger over the plug hole and feel the compression stroke on your way to TDC. Second way is both push rods will be loose at TDC. I have never seen a dizzy so tight I had to beat on it to get it out. Good luck, I hope it works out without damage.

Good tip, thanks. I don't mechanic often enough to have remembered that. : )

I hope so too!

 

[charliemeyer007]

When I do it for me its easier to pull all the spark plugs grab the metal fan blade and pull in the correct direction while its in neutral to get to TDC on the compression stroke. Good time to clean and inspect the plugs, or check the valve lash if you pull the cover.

 

[POPO AGIE]

Line up the pointer with the line on the flywheel and remove the valve cover and the distributer cap and see where the rotor is pointing and they rotate again until the line an pointer line and and see where the rotor lines up. The manual shows in the valve adjustment instructions where the rotor should be.

It has been tool long since I adjusted the valves and my manual is at home to get you a screen shot.

 

[JohnnyFish]

Yahtzee! I soaked the base of the distributor with trans fluid & acetone, then went to Vermont for three weeks. After a little tappy-tap-tap from underneath the distributor popped out! TDC on compression stroke & FSM procedure to reinstall in the correct alignment. Started right up, needed ~5 degrees of adjustment to align the ball on the stick, and holy crap does this 2F run great. I now realize how tired the 2F is in my '79.