2722 or 2723

[TeCKis300]

I know we kinda go back and forth on this subjects, but... what!?

Springs hold up the weight, shocks maintain ride quality. That’s how it works. While what you are saying is true at a certain point, it’s not true for available OME springs for the 200. I put 2725s under a stock 200 for fun, and it didn’t reduce the RTI score a bit.

“Soft springs reduce traction” tell that to mud racers. Maybe don’t want to reference road and track for a payload carrying off-roading monster. It would be like me recommending to a BMW to eliminate sway bars for better articulation because that makes better traction... on my FJ when I rock crawl. It’s just not the same situation.

Let’s talk about what really matters. If you keep stock spring rate, and put in ARB drawer, a full steel rear bumper/tire carrier, then a full camping load and a family, you’re going to be a saggin’ wagon.

This will greatly reduce high speed stability, and turning composure. Springs need to be tuned to the increased constant payload, or you end up having significant amounts of droop when you load down the factory spring.

Let’s look at real world example. My overlanding kit of 800 pounds hasn’t changed (everything but people). Long distance/cross country trips on the stock, 2722, and 2723s are just another example of the heavier spring provide much more control, smooth ride, turning composure, and all around confidence.

Take all the camping gear out. 2723s still ride just as good as factory. Why? Because I can bring down my compression and dampening when the weight isn’t there.

Now for the other way. I put my extra set of BP51s on my parents ‘18 with stock springs. While the ride was much better as the shock was able to dampen the load, the raw weight increase of just food, water, and camping gear when trying to pound through the sugar sand that is outer banks beach driving. The super soft factory springs allowed too much bounce, requiring the shocks to be adjusted to even higher comp/rebound. This made a harsher ride both on and off road, and made the factory spring equipped 200 make corrugations in the sand. Meaning the springs were failing to hold up the moderate load.

I feel you are backwards in how to set up a truck suspension that deals with payload. Maybe it’s your car background, maybe it’s your highway towing background (which is impressive, not going to lie) but for an off-roading, load carrying 200, I must say I couldn’t agree with your statements.

I'm not disagreeing with you. A loaded rig needs more spring rate. That is a fact that I am absolutely agreeing with you on.

My point in regards to what is good vs. too much spring rate.

But we're somewhat talking past each other because the balance of factors is more intertwined than your acknowledging on the face of things. I know you're prioritizing and simplifying factors. But I also like to discuss individual factors so that the larger system can be tuned with the right understanding and balance. Doesn't hurt anything to discuss right?

On the principle of things:

Springs hold up the weight, shocks maintain ride quality.

I know you're trying to simplify, but no, that's not exactly true. Springs and spring rate are the primary dictator of ride quality. Shocks as a secondary factor absorb extraneous energy in the system - hence "damper". Too stiff of spring rate will translate the force directly into the chassis, upsetting balance, where the damper can't directly help adsorb the imparted energy. Yes, we need more spring rate for more weight. But have we gone too far in spring rate?

I put 2725s under a stock 200 for fun, and it didn’t reduce the RTI score a bit.

This is a point where I absolutely do not agree. It's a mechanical fact. It might be that some believe their rigs RTI just as well, because they have larger 35" tires helping to accommodate part of the flex. You don't have to believe me, or you're just saying in reality, it flexes more than enough. But in principle, this is absolutely the case - Off-Road Basics: Axle Articulation - Got Flex? | DrivingLine

Back to my main point, is that spring rate should not be used to tune ride height. Spring length ideally should. It's too bad again that BP51's don't have an adjustable spring collar to adjust ride height.

I also want to acknowledge why you guys feel you need such high spring rates based on driving impressions. Because there are other factors at play. The way these overlanding and armored rigs get lifted and built out, hugely increases the center of gravity of the rig. It feels like there's not enough roll resistance with lower rates. Unfortunately, there's also lost roll resistance with the front end geometry when lifted. Ideally, this should be tuned with stiffer roll bars. Stiffer KDSS roll bars is a missing tool in the aftermarket today. This would be huge, as one does not suffer lost articulation from stiff bars because of KDSS dynamically disconnecting them when not needed. Yet KDSS will come in and give you the roll resistance you need for the lifted/higher center of gravity rig at speed.

For a balanced rig, one would use springs that are incrementally higher in spring rate. With the right spring length, or adjustable spring perch collars, to get you to the height you want. In lieu of that, spring spacers. And stiffer roll bars for roll resistance.

Until then, really stiff coils are a simpler, if stopgap, solution.

 

[WillW]

2721 has a spring rate of 270 with the bottom half of 350, where the 2722 is a constant 275. So there is really no benefit at all to go 2722 over a 2721.

The previous owner of my LC put on 2722s with no rear bumper, or anything else that added weight to the top or rear of the vehicle. The ride is pretty bad (for me, lots of injuries).

I did some research on here and several people recommended picking up 2721s instead.

Are you saying that the 2721s will basically be just as stiff as the 2722s? Since I'd only be going from a 275 to a 270 spring rate?

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

The previous owner of my LC put on 2722s with no rear bumper, or anything else that added weight to the top or rear of the vehicle. The ride is pretty bad (for me, lots of injuries).

I did some research on here and several people recommended picking up 2721s instead.

Are you saying that the 2721s will basically be just as stiff as the 2722s? Since I'd only be going from a 275 to a 270 spring rate?

Well... no there are some deeper differences, but I don't feel there is enough "softness" to make you feel like a 2721 will be like a cadillac.

2721s have a bar diameter (the thickness of the metal) of 18.5mm vs 2722s that has 19mm thickness. To give some reference, 2723s are 20mm, and 2724s are 21mm (i'm leaving 2725s out for a reason). So with the same free height and number of wraps, just going up 1mm in bar diameter makes the spring carry 440 pound more of junk in your trunk according to ARB.

Now onto wraps. Saying more wraps makes a soft spring isn't correct, but it does make it more compliant. A coil spring is just a torsion bar, wrapped in a circle a bunch of times. Make the bar diameter thinner, and wrap it around more, then the coil has more surface area to compress on, which does make it feel softer.

So the 2721s have 8.42 wraps where the 2722s have 7.2 wraps. So while the advertised spring rate is only 5 lbf/in different, the 2721s are .5mm thinner bar and have 1.22 more wraps.

So they will be more smooth feeling for sure, but if you have back injuries and need your truck to ride smooth as eggs. I think the 2721s will still be to firm for you. The only thing softer is the factory spring, even the 2720 is the same specs as 2721, just cut 20mm shorter. This really comes down to how much stuff you want to carry, and your on/off-roading style.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

This is a point where I absolutely do not agree. It's a mechanical fact. It might be that some believe their rigs RTI just as well, because they have larger 35" tires helping to accommodate part of the flex. You don't have to believe me, or you're just saying in reality, it flexes more than enough. But in principle, this is absolutely the case - Off-Road Basics: Axle Articulation - Got Flex? | DrivingLine

Hey man, I have an RTI ramp. Save the theory, it works, can't fight facts, under 2725s with no load, the rear axle flex until the shocks bottom out and the axle housing hits the bump stops. Plain and simple fact, just accept it. Would I put 2725s in a stock truck, nope, way to much spring rate, same as 2724s.

@TeCKis300 you and I do agree on everything suspension theory wise, we do, trust me we do. We only disagree on the limit of when a spring is too much. I personally feel that an unloaded 200 with 2723s is perfect for on and off road driving (drive my truck and you'll believe) that absolutely will carry camping gear on trips. I believe a 2724 is good for a rear steel bumper and extra fuel cans with a tire the is now moved much further behind the rear axle. I believe 2725s are a good match for people that have modified like... everything. @indycole, @Markuson you magnificent bastards (totally serious, Cole and Mark are men amongst men). @TeCKis300 you just feel springs need to be softer, that's fine, we'll just disagree on the limits for just the 200, and just the rear springs. But again, I'm right where you are with suspension theory.

 

[WillW]

Well... no there are some deeper differences, but I don't feel there is enough "softness" to make you feel like your on a cadillac.

2721s have a bar diameter (the thickness of the metal) of 18.5mm vs 2722s with has 19mm thickness. To give some reference, 2723s are 20mm, and 2724s are 21mm (i'm leaving 2725s out for a reason). So with the same free height and a wraps, just going up 1mm in bar diameter makes the spring carry 440 pound more of junk in your trunk according to ARB.

No on to wraps. Saying more wraps makes a soft spring isn't correct, but it does make it more compliant. A coil spring is just a torsion bar, wrapped in a circle a bunch of times. Make the bar diameter thinner, and wrap it around more, then the coil has more surface area to compress on, which does make it feel softer.

So the 2721s have 8.42 wraps where the 2722s have 7.2 wraps. So while the advertised spring rate is only 5 lbf/in different, the 2721s are .5mm thinner bar and have 1.22 more wraps.

So they will me more smooth feeling for sure, but if you have back injuries and need your truck to ride smooth as eggs. I think the 2721s will still be to firm for you. The only thing softer is the factory spring, even the 2720 is the same specs as 2721, just cut 20mm shorter. This really comes down to how much stuff you want to carry, and your on/off-roading style.

Thanks for that detailed explanation! I'm just used to the Icons on my 100 series so hopping into the 200 with no weight in the trunk is a big difference! Especially on bumpy roads. I just got the 21s, so I'll throw them on.

 

[JADANT]

I loved reading this thread. lots of knowledge and experience. I am still torn between going 2721, 2722, or 2723. I have a stock 2017 200 series, but when we go camping its loaded down and I want something that won't let it sag. I am estimating 400-500lbs of gear not including 2 adults and a child. It is my DD and like the way it currently rides, so don't want to sacrifice the ride quality too much (but willing to give a little). ARB told me to go with the 2722's to give me the extra .75" of lift to accommodate for the sag. @Taco2Cruiser from what your saying the ride with 2723's is good for both on and off-road with gear. I am tempted to go that route but I hear others posting that the 2721's are sufficient (@Markuson). Anyone in the Portland area have the 2723 or 2721's I can take a ride in?

 

[Mogwai]

I don't know about 2723s unladen ride but I can tell you a 200 with no rear bumpers, drawers, etc... WILL sag with 2721s when loaded. Aside from the sag, the ride with all that weight is amazing. You could stuff some 80 series trim packers above the 2721s and that may level out the truck when loaded.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I loved reading this thread. lots of knowledge and experience. I am still torn between going 2721, 2722, or 2723. I have a stock 2017 200 series, but when we go camping its loaded down and I want something that won't let it sag. I am estimating 400-500lbs of gear not including 2 adults and a child. It is my DD and like the way it currently rides, so don't want to sacrifice the ride quality too much (but willing to give a little). ARB told me to go with the 2722's to give me the extra .75" of lift to accommodate for the sag. @Taco2Cruiser from what your saying the ride with 2723's is good for both on and off-road with gear. I am tempted to go that route but I hear others posting that the 2721's are sufficient (@Markuson). Anyone in the Portland area have the 2723 or 2721's I can take a ride in?

In my small opinion, I still really like my 2723s for both unloaded with no drawers or rear bumper and loaded down trips. Heck I feel like all I do now on trips is tow at least 7,000 pounds plus of rock buggy and camping gear.

That said, I’m used to rough riding trucks. So when I get out of my ‘11, all lifted with stuff mud tires, and hope in the nine stock ‘18, I don’t feel like one is “nicer to drive.” They are just two different feels. It’s just so much personal preference.

I will also say that I had a customers ‘16 in the shop that I was installing BudBuilt stage 3 aluminum and a Kaymar rear bar with dual swing outs. It had 2725s with a roof rack (same weight as mine) with a iKamper. Well... it rode on ridge grapplers and was smoother than my 2723s with STT Pros.

So the tire also makes a huge difference with real world road feel. Sorry, I feel like I just added more junk to process to get to making a good decision.

 

[Markuson]

I loved reading this thread. lots of knowledge and experience. I am still torn between going 2721, 2722, or 2723. I have a stock 2017 200 series, but when we go camping its loaded down and I want something that won't let it sag. I am estimating 400-500lbs of gear not including 2 adults and a child. It is my DD and like the way it currently rides, so don't want to sacrifice the ride quality too much (but willing to give a little). ARB told me to go with the 2722's to give me the extra .75" of lift to accommodate for the sag. @Taco2Cruiser from what your saying the ride with 2723's is good for both on and off-road with gear. I am tempted to go that route but I hear others posting that the 2721's are sufficient (@Markuson). Anyone in the Portland area have the 2723 or 2721's I can take a ride in?

21’s actually sit a wee bit lower than the progressive 21’s....or at least they did when I tried 22’s for an hour.

I have been all over the map with springs since that post, as my truck’s weight has dramatically shifted through various stages.

I’ve run stock, 21’s (briefly 22’s), 24’s, 25’s, TTS.
But my build/weight is very different.

 

[JADANT]

In my small opinion, I still really like my 2723s for both unloaded with no drawers or rear bumper and loaded down trips. Heck I feel like all I do now on trips is tow at least 7,000 pounds plus of rock buggy and camping gear.

That said, I’m used to rough riding trucks. So when I get out of my ‘11, all lifted with stuff mud tires, and hope in the nine stock ‘18, I don’t feel like one is “nicer to drive.” They are just two different feels. It’s just so much personal preference.

I will also say that I had a customers ‘16 in the shop that I was installing BudBuilt stage 3 aluminum and a Kaymar rear bar with dual swing outs. It had 2725s with a roof rack (same weight as mine) with a iKamper. Well... it rode on ridge grapplers and was smoother than my 2723s with STT Pros.

So the tire also makes a huge difference with real world road feel. Sorry, I feel like I just added more junk to process to get to making a good decision.

21’s actually sit a wee bit lower than the progressive 21’s....or at least they did when I tried 22’s for an hour.

I have been all over the map with springs since that post, as my truck’s weight has dramatically shifted through various stages.

I’ve run stock, 21’s (briefly 22’s), 24’s, 25’s, TTS.
But my build/weight is very different.

@Markuson, where do you get the progressive 21's? Do they still make them? When you had your truck mostly stock what did you run with and did the truck sag when loaded up with gear?

 

[Markuson]

@Markuson, where do you get the progressive 21's? Do they still make them? When you had your truck mostly stock what did you run with and did the truck sag when loaded up with gear?

All the 2721’s are progressive springs.
So if you are ordering the 2721’s you are getting progressives.

 

[JADANT]

In my small opinion, I still really like my 2723s for both unloaded with no drawers or rear bumper and loaded down trips. Heck I feel like all I do now on trips is tow at least 7,000 pounds plus of rock buggy and camping gear.

That said, I’m used to rough riding trucks. So when I get out of my ‘11, all lifted with stuff mud tires, and hope in the nine stock ‘18, I don’t feel like one is “nicer to drive.” They are just two different feels. It’s just so much personal preference.

I will also say that I had a customers ‘16 in the shop that I was installing BudBuilt stage 3 aluminum and a Kaymar rear bar with dual swing outs. It had 2725s with a roof rack (same weight as mine) with a iKamper. Well... it rode on ridge grapplers and was smoother than my 2723s with STT Pros.

So the tire also makes a huge difference with real world road feel. Sorry, I feel like I just added more junk to process to get to making a good decision.

@Taco2Cruiser all your input is well received. I had a '99 Isuzu Trooper for almost 20 years and had the expedition springs on them and I didn't mind the harsher ride, but as I have grown I have learned to appreciate a smooth ride. I do worry about being able to handle a heavy load safely and that is why I want to make sure I have the right springs. I can always start with the 2722 or 2723 and if it doesn't work out I can move down or up as I need to.

Thanks

 

[Supra88]

I'm going to bump this up guys with a question. I have 2721s with 2701s up front on a rig that has an ARB with two swing outs (carrying a 285/70/17 tire). I know it's too mild of a spring. I happen to have a set of 2722s in the shop I could throw on, but is that going to be enough? I have an arb/winch up front and sliders too. I'm chasing a weird vibration that I think has to do with this set up.

Pic of my crushed 2721s attached.

 

[RET2]

I think they make a 2722X as well?

 

[Markuson]

I'm going to bump this up guys with a question. I have 2721s with 2701s up front on a rig that has an ARB with two swing outs (carrying a 285/70/17 tire). I know it's too mild of a spring. I happen to have a set of 2722s in the shop I could throw on, but is that going to be enough? I have an arb/winch up front and sliders too. I'm chasing a weird vibration that I think has to do with this set up.

Pic of my crushed 2721s attached.

View attachment 2474907

You already have the 22’s.
-Stick them on and find out.

Opinions on rear-coil-based ride quality & performance when on the edge between spring rates is a very subjective thing.

 

[Supra88]

You already have the 22’s.
-Stick them on and find out.

Opinions on rear-coil-based ride quality & performance when on the edge between spring rates is a very subjective thing.

In my case I'm thinking the drastic difference between the front and rear set up is the next likely suspect in the weird vibrations I'm experiencing. It wasn't the LCAs, bearings, hubs, rotors, pads, and axles I replaced last week! I hadn't realized how compressed the progressive part of the spring was until I took a closeR look at it.

Anyone else running 2722s with a loaded rear bumper?

I may have to throw the 2722s on tomorrow just to see what happens unless someone talks me out of it.

 

[Supra88]

The 2722’s are firmer, as expected, but they are also different in that they are not a progressive coil like the 2721s are. So they’ll handle the initial weight differently from the constant rate.

My primary goal is to eliminate the intermittent vibration that I'm getting. I'm hoping the fact the 2721s are way overloaded is the cause.

 

[Supra88]

Swapped in the 2722s this morning and I think it fixed the vibration problem. I might have gained about 1/4-1/2" of lift and the ride feels more solid, whereas there was zero rake before. I can feel the bumps in the road better, but there's no weird vibration anymore. I think I could actually use an even stuffed spring. No way 2721s should have been in there.

The drivers side is about 3/4" lower than the passenger side now. I opened the KDSS system during the install and the 'A' spring is on the passenger side.

 

[TheGrrrrr]

Getting ready to swap from my 2723s to 2721s. I was planning for an LRA and a bumper, but skipping those for now. I have the stiffer valving in the rear Nitros, so it will be interesting to see how they play with the 21s. Truck just has roof rack, drawers, sliders, skids and a 75L fridge some of the time… and a 285/75/17 Ridge Grappler on RWs underneath.