so I've decided to move forward with my build. I currently have the bjowett recommended bilstein set up with 2721 coils in the rear. I've since gotten bp51's delivered and am wondering which coils to get for the rear. I'll be installing arb skids, white knuckle sliders(about 140lbs) and he outback solutions drawer system. Which rear coils would be best suited?
2722 or 2723
- Thread starter ray101381
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I ran 2722's for a year or more and they were great but softened up....to much for my liking. Switched up to the 2723's and they were super firm at first but somewhat broken in now after stretching them out and beating them. I can only imagine with the drawers they'd be that much better if you're loaded down.
About 2721, 22 & 23's:
**I learned something interesting from Slee this summer about the rear springs that is relevant here, I think:
Having installed 21's with my initial BP51's, and adding drawers this summer...I was going to bump up to 22's....thinking that would firm up my truck under the weight of drawers+gear...and one of their guys did put the 22's on as I requested.
-But when Christo heard this, he talked to me and explained a difference I did not know existed:
-He explained how the 22's might actually ride LOWER as a result of the difference in design. -I had always assumed that the 21...22...23 were simply stiffer versions of each other, but this is NOT entirely correct!
It turns out that while the 21 is progressive tension...meaning it resists differently depending on compression...the 22 is not. The 22 is constant rather than progressive...so they do not behave the same.
Coolness from @sleeoffroad :
So this install was already running past closing time...but it was the night before Ouray & I had to drive up next morning. So they were pulling out all the stops trying to finish. Yet even then...Christo had his guy take the 22's back off and put my 21's back on without extra charge--just because he knew it was the right thing to do.
-A very cool gesture, and proof--once again--that Christo does what he feels is best, even if it means selling LESS STUFF.
Thanks, Mr. Slee!
Markuson
***[Correction note: I removed reference to the 2723 being progressive after TacoCruiser noted it is also constant like the 22's. Thx Taco!]***
**I learned something interesting from Slee this summer about the rear springs that is relevant here, I think:
Having installed 21's with my initial BP51's, and adding drawers this summer...I was going to bump up to 22's....thinking that would firm up my truck under the weight of drawers+gear...and one of their guys did put the 22's on as I requested.
-But when Christo heard this, he talked to me and explained a difference I did not know existed:
-He explained how the 22's might actually ride LOWER as a result of the difference in design. -I had always assumed that the 21...22...23 were simply stiffer versions of each other, but this is NOT entirely correct!
It turns out that while the 21 is progressive tension...meaning it resists differently depending on compression...the 22 is not. The 22 is constant rather than progressive...so they do not behave the same.
Coolness from @sleeoffroad :
So this install was already running past closing time...but it was the night before Ouray & I had to drive up next morning. So they were pulling out all the stops trying to finish. Yet even then...Christo had his guy take the 22's back off and put my 21's back on without extra charge--just because he knew it was the right thing to do.
-A very cool gesture, and proof--once again--that Christo does what he feels is best, even if it means selling LESS STUFF.
Thanks, Mr. Slee!
Markuson
***[Correction note: I removed reference to the 2723 being progressive after TacoCruiser noted it is also constant like the 22's. Thx Taco!]***
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- Thread starter
- #4
thanks for the heads up, i'll stick with the 2721's for now, and once slee releases the rear bumper maybe then i'll go to the 2723's
Same confit here, bp-51, ARB drawers, Slee sliders,have the 2721 spring, they work really well.
Taco2Cruiser
Crazy American Off Road
As @Markuson said, 2721 are progressive and 2722s are not, but neither are 2723s just to clarify
2721s and 2722s have the same free height of 440 and 430mm (A and B springs, oh and A goes on the passenger side, seen some confusion on that). 2721 has a spring rate of 270 with the bottom half of 350, where the 2722 is a constant 275. So there is really no benefit at all to go 2722 over a 2721.
Now for the 2723, it has a free height of 450 and 440 (half inch taller already) and a constant spring rate of 340.
Now for me, no steel real bumper yet, but with a rack and RTT with a full fridge, 15 gal of water, water heater, three redoxx flying box car bags of clothes, stove, recovery gear, tools, and three wolf pack boxes of stuff. 2721 or 2722 is no where near acceptable to keep the back end up while in the rocks.
If my next trip happens before a rear bumper, I'll put 2723 in, with a bumper, going strait to 2724.
For reference, stock spring rate is 170.
2721s and 2722s have the same free height of 440 and 430mm (A and B springs, oh and A goes on the passenger side, seen some confusion on that). 2721 has a spring rate of 270 with the bottom half of 350, where the 2722 is a constant 275. So there is really no benefit at all to go 2722 over a 2721.
Now for the 2723, it has a free height of 450 and 440 (half inch taller already) and a constant spring rate of 340.
Now for me, no steel real bumper yet, but with a rack and RTT with a full fridge, 15 gal of water, water heater, three redoxx flying box car bags of clothes, stove, recovery gear, tools, and three wolf pack boxes of stuff. 2721 or 2722 is no where near acceptable to keep the back end up while in the rocks.
If my next trip happens before a rear bumper, I'll put 2723 in, with a bumper, going strait to 2724.
For reference, stock spring rate is 170.
please update your build thread if you have put the 4:88's in already - off topic I know
thanks
Thank you for clarifying.
To Sleep credit, I added the 2723 bit from my own wrong understanding. He was steering me back from the 22's correctly.
Thanks Taco.
Taco2Cruiser
Crazy American Off Road
So I might be the first guy to try 2722, 2723, 2724, and possibly 2725.
I started with 2722s, with I didn't even with just camping gear and a RTT. I was going to go strait to 2724s with my new BudBuilt rear bumper, just I have 3 off-road trips planned between now and when it's done so I bough 2723s. Then Ill do the 2724s later, and in a couple years I want a Patriot X1 so that would mean 2725s. I'll have quite the collation, goo thing they are only $200 and people might want some of them later.
I started with 2722s, with I didn't even with just camping gear and a RTT. I was going to go strait to 2724s with my new BudBuilt rear bumper, just I have 3 off-road trips planned between now and when it's done so I bough 2723s. Then Ill do the 2724s later, and in a couple years I want a Patriot X1 so that would mean 2725s. I'll have quite the collation, goo thing they are only $200 and people might want some of them later.
I'm ordering bp-51 for my '17 200 today and have the same question. I currently have ARB rear drawers and will have the RLC rear bumper installed before the bp-51 suspension. Do I go with 2721 or 2723 rear springs? I plan to add sliders int he near future.
Taco2Cruiser
Crazy American Off Road
Without knowing what kind of ride you like, smoother or firmer. I feel it’s a clear 2723.
Bumper and drawers...2723 or 2724 IMO.
I have drawers (heavily loaded), sliders, roof rack and 2723 (about 7200 lbs without passengers or cargo). Personally, there is no way I would add a bumper without putting on heavier springs.
I have drawers (heavily loaded), sliders, roof rack and 2723 (about 7200 lbs without passengers or cargo). Personally, there is no way I would add a bumper without putting on heavier springs.
I think the 2721's maybe with a packer spacer if needed to level would be the play until you do a rear bumper.....I had to jump to 2724's when I did that and the larger spare/ tire and 3 cans etc....
Thanks for the help! I ordered the BP-51 suspension with 2723 springs.
I am looking for a set of 2721 if anyone has a take off set laying about.
I've said this before in other threads, but I think it's important to keep mentioning. Suspension tuning is driven by a confluence of many different factors.
What seems a bit backwards to me is that we are talking about spring rates in order to maintain static ride height against weight.
Generally, proper springs rates are driven by dynamic performance needs. Yes, weight is a consideration, but choosing the proper rate is more about the ability to adsorb bumps without transferring that energy into the chassis, while keeping the chassis (weight) controlled. For serious off-road, softer is an advantage. Just like we say more sidewall is an advantage. Seems really odd to me that we are chasing such high spring rates to make things "better". Back to the confluence of things, yes, higher spring rates may sag less with weight. But does that really make off-road performance better? And what is off-roading to you? To have the highest ground clearance for obstacles when rock crawling where maintaining all the clearance you can with the stiffest suspension possible is better performance? Or bombing down that irregular washboard road where compliance is the utmost of importance to performance?
As mentioned, stock spring rate is 170 as a baseline. We're talking about upping that rate double to triple? For a 500-1000lbs more? When a doubling could handle double the curb weight at stock compliance (6000 -> 12000lbs). Doesn't that seems odd when looked at that way?
Too stiff of suspension, while feeling great to immediate turn in, actually reduces traction. On-road, but especially off-road. That's because the suspension no longer absorbs the hit, and transfers the energy into the chassis, upsetting balance. And not allowing the tire to maintain its contact patch on the road. There's lots of technical articles to this, a quick search shows this one - Why Stiff Suspensions Have Less Grip
So back to my point. Choose spring rate first for the best balance of ride/traction/stability. It's too bad that I don't see adjustable perches on the BP51s (or is there?) to adjust ride height. Beyond that, one should use spacers or trim packers to tailor desired height for obstacle clearing. Not the other way around. Otherwise it'll be like a Ford F350 that's built for load bearing without a chance in heck to flex for off-road.
What seems a bit backwards to me is that we are talking about spring rates in order to maintain static ride height against weight.
Generally, proper springs rates are driven by dynamic performance needs. Yes, weight is a consideration, but choosing the proper rate is more about the ability to adsorb bumps without transferring that energy into the chassis, while keeping the chassis (weight) controlled. For serious off-road, softer is an advantage. Just like we say more sidewall is an advantage. Seems really odd to me that we are chasing such high spring rates to make things "better". Back to the confluence of things, yes, higher spring rates may sag less with weight. But does that really make off-road performance better? And what is off-roading to you? To have the highest ground clearance for obstacles when rock crawling where maintaining all the clearance you can with the stiffest suspension possible is better performance? Or bombing down that irregular washboard road where compliance is the utmost of importance to performance?
As mentioned, stock spring rate is 170 as a baseline. We're talking about upping that rate double to triple? For a 500-1000lbs more? When a doubling could handle double the curb weight at stock compliance (6000 -> 12000lbs). Doesn't that seems odd when looked at that way?
Too stiff of suspension, while feeling great to immediate turn in, actually reduces traction. On-road, but especially off-road. That's because the suspension no longer absorbs the hit, and transfers the energy into the chassis, upsetting balance. And not allowing the tire to maintain its contact patch on the road. There's lots of technical articles to this, a quick search shows this one - Why Stiff Suspensions Have Less Grip
So back to my point. Choose spring rate first for the best balance of ride/traction/stability. It's too bad that I don't see adjustable perches on the BP51s (or is there?) to adjust ride height. Beyond that, one should use spacers or trim packers to tailor desired height for obstacle clearing. Not the other way around. Otherwise it'll be like a Ford F350 that's built for load bearing without a chance in heck to flex for off-road.
Taco2Cruiser
Crazy American Off Road
I know we kinda go back and forth on this subjects, but... what!?
Springs hold up the weight, shocks maintain ride quality. That’s how it works. While what you are saying is true at a certain point, it’s not true for available OME springs for the 200. I put 2725s under a stock 200 for fun, and it didn’t reduce the RTI score a bit.
“Soft springs reduce traction” tell that to mud racers. Maybe don’t want to reference road and track for a payload carrying off-roading monster. It would be like me recommending to a BMW to eliminate sway bars for better articulation because that makes better traction... on my FJ when I rock crawl. It’s just not the same situation.
Let’s talk about what really matters. If you keep stock spring rate, and put in ARB drawer, a full steel rear bumper/tire carrier, then a full camping load and a family, you’re going to be a saggin’ wagon.
This will greatly reduce high speed stability, and turning composure. Springs need to be tuned to the increased constant payload, or you end up having significant amounts of droop when you load down the factory spring.
Let’s look at real world example. My overlanding kit of 800 pounds hasn’t changed (everything but people). Long distance/cross country trips on the stock, 2722, and 2723s are just another example of the heavier spring provide much more control, smooth ride, turning composure, and all around confidence.
Take all the camping gear out. 2723s still ride just as good as factory. Why? Because I can bring down my compression and dampening when the weight isn’t there.
Now for the other way. I put my extra set of BP51s on my parents ‘18 with stock springs. While the ride was much better as the shock was able to dampen the load, the raw weight increase of just food, water, and camping gear when trying to pound through the sugar sand that is outer banks beach driving. The super soft factory springs allowed too much bounce, requiring the shocks to be adjusted to even higher comp/rebound. This made a harsher ride both on and off road, and made the factory spring equipped 200 make corrugations in the sand. Meaning the springs were failing to hold up the moderate load.
I feel you are backwards in how to set up a truck suspension that deals with payload. Maybe it’s your car background, maybe it’s your highway towing background (which is impressive, not going to lie) but for an off-roading, load carrying 200, I must say I couldn’t agree with your statements.
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I have experienced exactly what Taco said with my Tundra. I started out with K37 Deavers but the weight of my load out was causing me to sag. The reduced uptravel forced me to increase compression til I had both ride and transition tubes almost all the way closed. I had to futz with the rebound to get my tires to the ground cuz I had droop for days. I had Jeff at Deaver adjust my leaf pack twice and ended up with a set that was able to carry my gear. Then I could tweak the bypasses to handle either loaded or unloaded weight and the truck drove like butter off road. And was better than before on road.
I was assuming this would be true with the coils with the LC and was planning on the trying the 2724’s when I got my bumper and drawers put in. I have the Icon dual rate springs right now but I just don’t know what weight they’re rated for. And the LC is turning into a little piggie.
I was assuming this would be true with the coils with the LC and was planning on the trying the 2724’s when I got my bumper and drawers put in. I have the Icon dual rate springs right now but I just don’t know what weight they’re rated for. And the LC is turning into a little piggie.