2011 - Diff Drop - Need Advise (1 Viewer)

[DRRichey]

Current CV angle per iPhone Level was 19 degrees. Any opinions?

The Foam Cell Pro's I installed netted quite a bit more lift than advertised, not really happy with that.

front fender measurements are 23.5'' Hub Center to Fender. Opinions/Comparisons welcome. Would love to know a height on a stock 2011 before say...20k miles on the ODO (pre-spring sag)

Does a tundra diff drop kit work on the 200? If not - whats the consensus on the best kit here in USA. I'm not trying to order from AUS right now.

Thanks for the help, lots of mixed results using the search. Looking for the most up to date consensus.


-Dan

 

[Romer]

All I can say is when I took my 2014 to Slee I asked for a Diff drop as part of the left and he talked me out of it. Over 4 years later no issues

 

[DRRichey]

All I can say is when I took my 2014 to Slee I asked for a Diff drop as part of the left and he talked me out of it. Over 4 years later no issues

I talked to Slee today, since I didn't buy the suspension with them or drive to Colorado to pay for an install, he gave me the cold shoulder. Just wanted their take on the matter. On the other hand I called Cruiser Outfitters and he was extremely helpful.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I talked to Slee today, since I didn't buy the suspension with them or drive to Colorado to pay for an install, he gave me the cold shoulder. Just wanted their take on the matter. On the other hand I called Cruiser Outfitters and he was extremely helpful.

I don’t feel you need a diff drop. In fact I’m pretty against them in our trucks.

And actually they aren’t much of a diff drop anymore, they are a diff “pitched forward” as you will decrease the CV axle angle, but increase the prop shaft angle.

Also, look at the crazy angles of when you turn the tires, CVs don’t explode under those conditions either. Diff drops made a lot of sense when Toyota came out with IFS in ‘86. They go excited and placed the diff high up into the frame. Then they learned and placed them much lower in the Prado 120 frame in ‘03. Since then other Toyota followed like our 200s. But habits die hard and people still talk about them as they think the architecture hasn’t evolved.

Plus companies know diff drops as money makers. It’s about $20 of parts and we sell them for $75-200. Crazy, and just wrong if you ask me.

You are good to go, and won’t see any measurable decrease in CV life. Just general, CV boots exposed to the elements over 10-15 years will so far more damage.

 

[Markuson]

Just a testimonial supporting the no-diff-drop-needed comments above...

My 200:
-12 year old truck & 138,000 miles.
-Very Heavy setup.
-Many build stages including 2 years on 35’s (now on 34s)
-Lifted & wheeled hard enough to bend & scrape off really strong hunks of metal.
-No diff drop.

*Still on original CVs

 

[sleeoffroad]

I talked to Slee today, since I didn't buy the suspension with them or drive to Colorado to pay for an install, he gave me the cold shoulder. Just wanted their take on the matter. On the other hand I called Cruiser Outfitters and he was extremely helpful.

@DRRichey sorry that you felt that you were given the cold shoulder. When someone calls and asks technical information regarding lifts, and it covers a brand that we do not sell, we are not really in a position to provide technical details or advice since we don't have experience with the parts, specific part numbers or any technical data related to that product.

I spoke to the sales manager that you spoke to and checked on the details on the conversation. He did mention that we do not suggest or install diff drops on a 200. We do not support diff drops and gave you our take on the matter for suspension that we do sell and support.

We always like to improve our customer support and we are willing to learn what we did wrong but not sure what else we should have provided in this case. We take the time to learn about parts we sell and provide support for those parts.

You are running an Ironman suspension yet you don't mention if you obtained support from them or the vendor that sold the suspension to you. As I understood it, you were given our name by another vendor that suggested you call us to technical advice, which was given by the sales manager.

 

[DRRichey]

Correct on all points slee. Just the difference in attitude from my convos between Slee and Cruiser Outfitters was noticable. I've spoken with IM consistently thru the process, they're assuring me I didn't net more than I was supposed to.

The mixed opinion on the diff drop was a hard one, I ended up using the lathe to fab a replica of the Dobinsons kit at 30 mil. I used a 6MM spacer in the DS rear diff mount to somewhat negate the forward only tilt.

Only other item that seems to have mixed opinions is the topic of the new suspension settling. Some say give it s 1000miles. Some say its settled as soon as the tires are down.

Time will tell, but experiences are appreciated.

 

[linuxgod]

@DRRichey - Most folks here have not done them and have not had an issues. That's very anecdotal, not scientific, and I don't think we really know if the difference in CV life is 0%, 2%, 10%, 30%, etc. To determine that you'd need a fairly broad pool of people with somewhat similar groups of situations (e.g. new vehicle w/ 2" lift, 2" lift installed at 50k miles, new vehicle with 3" lift, 3" lift installed at 50k miles). Otherwise there are too many variables unless you have a very similar pattern that emerges.

Anecdotally I had a boot leak ~25k miles after my lift (which was put on at 66k miles... so at around 90k). Also anecdotally when the lift when on the guy helping me tore the outside CV boots which necessitated rebooting them. Also anecdotally about half my mileage is towing a fairly heavy trailer, which reduces the weight on the front of the vehicle by about 200# and consequently results in an "additional" front lift of 1/2" or so. So my experience isn't the same as other folks.

After I had my boot replaced, I installed a 1" DD kit I'd bought for $60. I'm at 101k now and no issues. But even if I go another 100k I'll never know if my original issue was the lift itself or the lift + towing impact or the CV reboot or just statistically bad luck. That said, $60 plus about 2 hours in the driveway was cheap insurance against another $300 re-boot, and I was OK giving up 1" of lift in the center of the vehicle.

 

[Romer]

I am not seeing a mixed opinion ? wondering where that is coming from

Thanks for agreeing that Slee answered the questions as Slee said. That didnt come across in your first post. I understand the person didnt have as a good an attitude. Attitudes can be a personal thing rather than a company thing. You can call me after solving a big problem and I am happy and have a great attitude. You call me when I am slammed and falling behind and I likely won't be as positive. Unless they were snarky to you and didn't answer your question, I don't see why you slammed them with the cold shoulder comment as that isnt correct since you agreed they did answer your question

I personally do not call vendors to ask them questions when I have not or am not considering buying from them. I don't feel that is fair or appropriate as they are a business not there to provide free answers. They do come on here and answer questions and thats a different thing, more of being part of the community. That is just a personal code I follow and not a rule anywhere. I am not saying you are wrong to do it, just my personal feelings about my doing it.

I spread my $$ to the great vendors here. I buy 200 parts from Slee, 40 parts from cruiseroutfitters and generic Toyota from the local dealer who supports our club. I also have wheeled, drank and socialized with most of the vendors here and have found them to all be great guys. Many of us have known each other for close to 20 years.

I am only posting because your post came across as a slam to Slee who has been here a long time, helped build this forum and community and never hesitates to provide free advice when asked for in this forum setting. He also sponsors multiple events and gives a lot back to this community

 

[DRRichey]

If I were in Colorado I'd take it to slee in a heartbeat. Just not my situation. In my line of work I guess I'm used to calling around for ideas and picking brains. Maybe as a business model it's not ideal, but when it comes to helping folks I see it as a really great way to establish a good name.

The cold shoulder comment was coming light heartedly from me. Stated it in the post to show good faith in research & current dilemma. If I rattled some flakes i apologize.

I hate to be the guy to ask questions, but I also like to learn and gather opinions.

 

[Romer]

If I were in Colorado I'd take it to slee in a heartbeat. Just not my situation. In my line of work I guess I'm used to calling around for ideas and picking brains. Maybe as a business model it's not ideal, but when it comes to helping folks I see it as a really great way to establish a good name.

The cold shoulder comment was coming light heartedly from me. Stated it in the post to show good faith in research & current dilemma. If I rattled some flakes i apologize.

I hate to be the guy to ask questions, but I also like to learn and gather opinions.

No worries. I am an engineer and asking questions is always a good thing.

The internet is a 1 dimensional medium. You don't get body language or voice tone and so messages have to rely 100% on the words used and can be interpreted different ways by different people. I have been misunderstood several times and its all due to that fact. Going back I can read my words and see how it can be interpreted differently. I am sure you could do the same with your words

You can get Slee's opinion in the forum by using the @ sign, such as @sleeoffroad when are you going to have a bumper for the GX470 so I can put one on my daughters truck.

We are all a community and it always takes time to calibrate how to work within a new community.

Feel free to ask questions and hope you have the information you need to make a decision

 

[afgman786]

I've been having the same question about whether to diff drop or not. Feel like my CV angles are more extreme that others I've seen pictures of and worried about having a break on the trails since I tend to play on rocky/muddy trails. I had reached out to Cruiser Outfitters as well since I got my lift from them and was suggested to remove the spacers I added to the struts instead of finding a diff drop.

@Taco2Cruiser if you don't mind shedding some more insight. How come most lift kits for 100series and T4Rs offer the addition of a diff drop? I get that if you're getting a 3" or more lift diff drops make sense because of how steep the angle would be, but seem to see that offered even with a 2.5" lift.. Does track width (CV length) play a factor here?

 

[DRRichey]

No worries. I am an engineer and asking questions is always a good thing.

The internet is a 1 dimensional medium. You don't get body language or voice tone and so messages have to rely 100% on the words used and can be interpreted different ways by different people. I have been misunderstood several times and its all due to that fact. Going back I can read my words and see how it can be interpreted differently. I am sure you could do the same with your words

You can get Slee's opinion in the forum by using the @ sign, such as @sleeoffroad when are you going to have a bumper for the GX470 so I can put one on my daughters truck.

We are all a community and it always takes time to calibrate how to work within a new community.

Feel free to ask questions and hope you have the information you need to make a decision

I have 2008 Salsa GX470 w/ OME, Ironman Bullbar etc...coming on the market soon. We upgraded to the 200

 

[Romer]

Thanks for that, my daughter has a fully built 2007 GX470, bumpers lockers and everything, so don't need another vehicle

Welcome to the 200 platform

 

[Markuson]

I've been having the same question about whether to diff drop or not. Feel like my CV angles are more extreme that others I've seen pictures of and worried about having a break on the trails since I tend to play on rocky/muddy trails. I had reached out to Cruiser Outfitters as well since I got my lift from them and was suggested to remove the spacers I added to the struts instead of finding a diff drop.

@Taco2Cruiser if you don't mind shedding some more insight. How come most lift kits for 100series and T4Rs offer the addition of a diff drop? I get that if you're getting a 3" or more lift diff drops make sense because of how steep the angle would be, but seem to see that offered even with a 2.5" lift.. Does track width (CV length) play a factor here?

I’m not @Taco2Cruiser ...who can run circles around me suspension-insight-wise....

But my 1.25 cents...
The 100 series CV angles start off in a more extreme angle to begin with. I had a diff drop on my 100 series til it was 16 years old. Even with the diff drop I still went through 3 sets of CVs.

The 200 CV angles start off with a more mild angle, and it helps a lot. So when they are lifted, the angle is still good relative to the 100’s CV angles.

This whole question is also another reason why a bit of forward rake in the 200 is a good thing not only for offroad performance and rearward load balancing, but also keeps your CVs from being pushed downward & strained needlessly just for looks.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

@Taco2Cruiser if you don't mind shedding some more insight. How come most lift kits for 100series and T4Rs offer the addition of a diff drop? I get that if you're getting a 3" or more lift diff drops make sense because of how steep the angle would be, but seem to see that offered even with a 2.5" lift.. Does track width (CV length) play a factor here?

@Markuson nailed really

for the long version. It all started... (que the flashback movie sequence)

When Toyota went to IFS in ‘86, they placed the diff way up between the frame rails. It made sense to drop them as the diffs were complete below crossmembers, and they could be dropped 1” and still not effect skid plate/ground clearance.

Fast forward, Toyota saw the error of their way and began positioning front diffs much lower. The 100 series like all cruisers, is not the newest tech on market. The 100 had torsion bars and rear coils and was built from ‘98-‘07. Compare that tech to a 4Runner, you get the second gen 4Runner of ‘90-‘95.

But when the 4th gen 4Runner showed up, with the new Prado 120 frame, Toyota placed that diff much lower.

That’s were some people stopped, and really looked at what was new, did some testing, and determined it was no longer needed. Others, stuck with habit and thought you should keep it.

One thing else about the new architecture is that how the diff is fitted in the frame, you can’t fully drop the front diff anymore. It is now more of a “diff pitch forward.” So you reduce the CV axle angle, but you increase the pinion angle coming off the front prop shaft.

What Bud likes to bring up is the line “does you CV explode when you turn?” No, and that goes to over 50° with more load than you think due to weight shifting.

This is where some will say, “yeah but imagine turning, while lifted, and off road.” Yep... that how you break things, but a diff drop won’t help with that. I’ve broken 5 ton Rockwell’s so anything is possible when you run a muck.

but this is where I am at. I run at about 3.4” of front lift, and it’s smooth as can be. No vibration. But I believe that if you lift a truck, you do it for ground clearance. So why lift a truck, and then drop components to loose ground clearance? Just lower the truck a bit and that will help with center of gravity.

there’s a reason why those drop bracket lifts are terrible off road, becuase they keep the terrible IFS articulation, but raise the center of gravity to much for IFS.

other fun thinking. My 200, when I bought it nine stock with 68k on the clock, had a bad right CV and lower ball joint. Sometimes, components just don’t hold up. But I’ve added the same mileage to a new CV at my pretty high levels, with a front locker, and in the trails I drive on, and my truck drive straight as an arrow. So when we hear about breakage, we do need to acknowledge that sometimes Toyota doesn’t make good stuff.

 

[afgman786]

I’m not @Taco2Cruiser ...who can run circles around me suspension-insight-wise....

But my 1.25 cents...
The 100 series CV angles start off in a more extreme angle to begin with. I had a diff drop on my 100 series til it was 16 years old. Even with the diff drop I still went through 3 sets of CVs.

The 200 CV angles start off with a more mild angle, and it helps a lot. So when they are lifted, the angle is still good relative to the 100’s CV angles.

This whole question is also another reason why a bit of forward rake in the 200 is a good thing not only for offroad performance and rearward load balancing, but also keeps your CVs from being pushed downward & strained needlessly just for looks.

@Markuson nailed really

for the long version. It all started... (que the flashback movie sequence)

Thank you gents for sharing your knowledge

 

[linuxgod]

One thing else about the new architecture is that how the diff is fitted in the frame, you can’t fully drop the front diff anymore. It is now more of a “diff pitch forward.” So you reduce the CV axle angle, but you increase the pinion angle coming off the front prop shaft./QUOTE]

FYI the kits I've seen (mine included) do drop the rear of the diff as well as the front. The rear drops less than the front, yes, but it does help reduce the increase in angle.

$0.02 - Given the number of people who are lifted here and haven't had issues, and the fact that a lift costs $1000 to $3500+ yet a re-boot costs maybe $350, most folks who can afford to lift should probably skip the DD kit and just figure you might occasionally need to r&r the CV if the boot tears. I think the fact that big shop like Slee who see a lot of trucks aren't selling a DD reinforces that there really isn't a huge need.

 

[Markuson]

@DRRichey sorry that you felt that you were given the cold shoulder. When someone calls and asks technical information regarding lifts, and it covers a brand that we do not sell, we are not really in a position to provide technical details or advice since we don't have experience with the parts, specific part numbers or any technical data related to that product.

I spoke to the sales manager that you spoke to and checked on the details on the conversation. He did mention that we do not suggest or install diff drops on a 200. We do not support diff drops and gave you our take on the matter for suspension that we do sell and support.

We always like to improve our customer support and we are willing to learn what we did wrong but not sure what else we should have provided in this case. We take the time to learn about parts we sell and provide support for those parts.

You are running an Ironman suspension yet you don't mention if you obtained support from them or the vendor that sold the suspension to you. As I understood it, you were given our name by another vendor that suggested you call us to technical advice, which was given by the sales manager.

To others Re Slee:
Slee has gone consistently above and beyond in the 15 years or so I have dealt with them. Both Christo and Amory in particular have taken support to the next level numerous times, including going to bat for me when issues happened on a product I bought through them, but for which Slee had no direct responsibility. Amory has personally delivered parts to many in this forum at events, and is supremely patient. No single feeling on a single phone call should taint that.

It would frankly be weird for Slee to engage in major support convos regarding parts they neither install nor recommend—especially products they recommend avoiding.

Slee has a looong history of quality products, service and support and ships world-wide for good reason.

Ps. Don’t do the diff drop on your 200.

 

[lcforlife]

I'll further add that Ben from Dissent Offroad, who knows the 200 as well as most, also is against the diff drop on the 200. He says a diff drop rotates the front of the diff and causes driveline angle issues.