Events/Trails 2008 USA Land Cruiser Pics and Test Drive Impressions
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- #103
Laughs on you. It was AVERAGE in 2006 when I bought it. It wnet to below average for one year (Engine CPU flash recall). Now in 2007 it's AVERAGE again. There's a huge difference between the middle and the very bottom.
Do your research before embarrassing yourself.
Excellent point James! I remember way back when Mercedes introduced the five-link rear suspension (that's five links per wheel, not five total links like on a modern Land Cruiser rear axle!). Superior engineering from Formula One racing, in a passenger car! It totally transformed the handling. Most manufacturers today still don't offer five links (most do three or four). One example of why MBs cost so much, it's all the engineering under the covers that most people never see or care about. Incidentally, this is the same explanation I give people when they ask me why a stupid Toyota SUV costs friggin' $65K new...
...
OK, I actually don't remember it, since I was a kid at the time, but I have certainly experienced it (and continue to do so)!
yes the engineering is impressive in the LC's in a different way- but I agree it's the engineering below the covers.
Fundamentally, LC's are pure beef. I learned this when I first got the 80 and started wrenching on it. It's often hard to make something simple & indestructable. Simplicity is the most difficult concept. But, the underbelly is appreciated by anyone that knows about mechanicals.
Once at the muffler shop when it when on the lift, they gawked at the axles and said "damn the axles are huge!" I think the beef factor, while not appreciated by many, is what stands the LC apart.
tell that to the other guy on Mud that had his RX8 motor blow within 5K miles.Easy now, its just a rotary. There reliable untill they shatter
it's a nice, disposable sporty car. For the same money, I'd get a real sports car tho.
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- #106
I care about the AVERAGE.....not one incident. Neither he nor me (or you) know near as much as the thousands who submitted surveys each year. Nice try though! (Prob an 2004 or early 2005 too....I'd not consider one)
And once you own a rotary you're hooked for life!
Being the owner of a 2000 Audi S4, I feel obligated to add to this. Yes the audi has a very fancy suspension. For the front alone it has 4 individual control arms PER WHEEL. Yes, its very slick in design, but absolutely piss-poor in execution. Something I've come to find in the majority of modern german cars I've worked on (I'm a mechanical engineer by profession but a mechanic/welder/fabricator by hobby). All the elements of great design are there, but the execution is lacking the details to make the system function reliably.
Case in point, the audi. All the control arms were replaced with failed bushings while it was under warranty. 40K later and out of warranty, several are blown again. I can tell when one goes as you start to get ugly knocking noises over small bumps, and then start to notice that the car seems out of alignment.
Its so bad that basically every suspension component on modern audis are considered wear items, and stocked by all major parts suppliers. They make whole control arm kits and sell them like hotcakes as every 40K or so, you need new ones. I can rattle off a whole list of mechanical failures that happened while in and out of warranty just like this without even touching the wide array of electrical gremlins.
In my opinion, the pinnacle of design&execution is with 90's era japanese cars -- specifically toyota and honda (lexus & acura as well). They seem to have the best balance of technology, simplicity, and reliability.
Unfortunately, I can't yet find another car my wife likes in order to get rid of the S4. We got rid of her 01 528i for similar issues and the S4 has just been extremely disappointing as well.
rich
- Thread starter
- #108
Ya, it's a shame this is so prevalent. So many upscale cars are kiler performers (MB, Audi, etc) though they're plagued with reliability troubles.
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- #109
As an aside, for the all-knowing Mr. Shotts, the S550 costs $17,000 less than the 600H and does the 0-60 a tenth of a second faster if you use factory figures for both cars. Let's not even talk about the AMG models. Gas mileage hwy only differs by ONE mpg, in the city the 600H has a six mpg advantage (20 vs. 14). Not exactly earth-shattering, and anyway, $17,000 will sure buy a lot of gas...
My $0.02,
UPDATE:
Just tested.....MB S550 vs Lexus LS460L
Scores (reliability is not figured in) based on overall performance, etc (0-100 points):
S550...86
LS460L...99
Reliability:
S550...Below Average
LS460L...Above Average
Price:
S550...$90,200
LS460L...$76,572
BITE ME BOY!
well there you go, that's my point.
I agree the Audi's have reliability issues. Control arms have a considerably shorter lifespan for sure but that's just the way it is unfortunately. Some go out at 50K, some go on for 100K. But that's what I'm saying- the design is awesome, but is far less reliable than basically a lifetime toyota control arm setup.
I really have not had any problems with Audi, it's been pretty reliable. Not perfect but solid.
I would buy Audi again because it's just fantastic to drive and not hard to work on.
- Thread starter
- #111
Other luxury cars that scored higher than the S550 (price not a factor):
M35 AWD...97 (Is recommended)
M35...95 (Is recommended)
MB E320BT...89 (Not enough data on reliability so it was not recommended)
MB E350...88 (Was not recommended)
Well, I should have qualified the statement about my wife not liking other cars -- we're talking mainly looks here
. She simply likes the look of most german sedans better, and the fact that they are available with stickshifts as well (which is one thing I am a big fan of myself -- its bad enough that our '98 LC is an AT).I guess I just get annoyed by the fact that a much simpler and more reliable suspension design can outperform the fancy one that fails all too often. I mean, some of the best handling cars still use Macpherson struts up front (M3's, Lancer EVO's, Subaru STI)!
Which audi do you have?
rich
That was not our experience with the brand new A4 we bought in 2003...actually we leased it thank God!!! The fuel pump stranded
at 28K...they had the car for 3-days on that one. Numerous small issue stuff...but the clincher was the clogged oil sump. Apparently Audi had a bulletin...not a recall nor a notice to owners!...that the sump screen had to be updated. Well...the check engine light (read: If you continue to drive the vehicle after this light comes on and damage occurs as a result you, the owner, are 100% responsible for all damages related to the warning light!!! Per Audi!!!) came on one night...anyway to make a long story a little shorter Audi had our A4 for A MONTH! It was a royal PITA!!! The engine has to be pulled to access the sump...and of course they didn't have the parts...Then there's the HUGE front brake issues with ~year 2000 A6 4.2L (maybe the finally fixed this in '05/'06?) undersized rotors...never a recall...but a big problem for those owners!
Glad you've had better luck with your Audi but no more Audis for us.
Sorry for the lil' hijack
I agree w/ your wife german sedans are usually much better proportioned than others.
The only cars I feel handle as well as Audis are BMWs. I like some of the japanese sedans but they don't have the feel of german ones by a long shot- imo. I'm not so concerned w/ 0-60 or racing, just want to love the ride.
I have a B5 QTM... not a big fan of the looks of the B6 or B7. The B8 looks really good- turbodiesel, quattro, manual-yes!
But my next will prob be a B7 A4 QT. The LandCruiser is really my hobby otherwise I would get the S4 or a TT225Q and mod it!
spressomon, unfortunately I've heard more than a few stories like that about german cars.
german sedans are usually much better proportioned than others.The only cars I feel handle as well as Audis are BMWs. I like some of the japanese sedans but they don't have the feel of german ones by a long shot- imo. I'm not so concerned w/ 0-60 or racing, just want to love the ride.
I have a B5 QTM... not a big fan of the looks of the B6 or B7. The B8 looks really good- turbodiesel, quattro, manual-yes!
But my next will prob be a B7 A4 QT. The LandCruiser is really my hobby otherwise I would get the S4 or a TT225Q and mod it!
spressomon, unfortunately I've heard more than a few stories like that about german cars.
You just love to base everything on these "statistics" and reliability charts don't you. While some of them do merit some degree of validity, there are other aspects of auto ownership that cannot be judged purely by "numbers". I will not disagree with you about the excellent cars that Toy/Lex builds. When Lexus entered the mkt it really did make other brands take notice. Lexus made some of the other brands build better vehicles and improved the after the sale experience as well. However, there is something that these Lex/Toy vehicles lack that cannot be shown on any graph or statistic..Some people call it "soul" while others call it personality, both of which are intangibles that are important to people who want to spend a great deal of money and want that purchase to make them "feel" special. I will argue that Lexus builds bland, spiritless cars. Are they good, most definitely but they are about as "fun" to drive as a sewing machine. It is easier to relate to them as purely machines that do what they were built to do and nothing more. For some people (you) that is all they want from their auto...To get you from point A to B with as little drama as possible. To be efficient and dependable, that's all. Other people want something more. Call it "snob" appeal if you will, but there are intagibles that your efficient, dependable Toy/Lex cars lack that many consumers deem just as important as how some car scored in the latest CR report! I will argue that a Timex keeps just as good time as a Rolex...So, why do some people aspire to own a Rolex?? Same damn reason people drive a Jag, BMW, MB, etc, rather than a Lex. Except this, you can actually make that BMW, etc actually "perform" better than a Lex !! All the charts and statistics in the world can't cover all aspects that drive the consumer to make certain buying decisions. It all comes down to what that particular person is looking for. You are basing your views on all these charts and statistics which you seem to deem very important. That is fine, if that's what drives your decision making. I will argue that people who are buying cars in the $60,000 and up range do not base their purchasing decisions mearly on whether the car scored well in this index or the other. There is an emotional aspect that you are not addressing that is very important to many people making these purchasing decisions. It is very obvious you are "sold" on toyota products. That is fine. You also have made it abundantly clear that "looks" or style of the vehicle is not important to you. Fabulous, go check out the new 2008 LC, that sucker isn't going to be winning any beauty contests anytime soon !! But to continually bombast other people for what make of vehicle they prefer is pretty ignorant and arrogant, IMO.
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John, the level of idiocy just keeps sinking to new lows. Please explain where the 460L came into this. We were discussing the 600H. Bite me back BOOOIIEE!
Please cite your sources. If it's Consumer Reports, well, then no explanation necessary...
You just love to base everything on these "statistics" and reliability charts don't you. While some of them do merit some degree of validity, there are other aspects of auto ownership that cannot be judged purely by "numbers". I will not disagree with you about the excellent cars that Toy/Lex builds. When Lexus entered the mkt it really did make other brands take notice. Lexus made some of the other brands build better vehicles and improved the after the sale experience as well. However, there is something that these Lex/Toy vehicles lack that cannot be shown on any graph or statistic..Some people call it "soul" while others call it personality, both of which are intangibles that are important to people who want to spend a great deal of money and want that purchase to make them "feel" special. I will argue that Lexus builds bland, spiritless cars. Are they good, most definitely but they are about as "fun" to drive as a sewing machine. It is easier to relate to them as purely machines that do what they were built to do and nothing more. For some people (you) that is all they want from their auto...To get you from point A to B with as little drama as possible. To be efficient and dependable, that's all. Other people want something more. Call it "snob" appeal if you will, but there are intagibles that your efficient, dependable Toy/Lex cars lack that many consumers deem just as important as how some car scored in the latest CR report! I will argue that a Timex keeps just as good time as a Rolex...So, why do some people aspire to own a Rolex?? Same damn reason people drive a Jag, BMW, MB, etc, rather than a Lex. Except this, you can actually make that BMW, etc actually "perform" better than a Lex !! All the charts and statistics in the world can't cover all aspects that drive the consumer to make certain buying decisions. It all comes down to what that particular person is looking for. You are basing your views on all these charts and statistics which you seem to deem very important. That is fine, if that's what drives your decision making. I will argue that people who are buying cars in the $60,000 and up range do not base their purchasing decisions mearly on whether the car scored well in this index or the other. There is an emotional aspect that you are not addressing that is very important to many people making these purchasing decisions. It is very obvious you are "sold" on toyota products. That is fine. You also have made it abundantly clear that "looks" or style of the vehicle is not important to you. Fabulous, go check out the new 2008 LC, that sucker isn't going to be winning any beauty contests anytime soon !! But to continually bombast other people for what make of vehicle they prefer is pretty ignorant and arrogant, IMO.
AMEN!!!
you actually read it? Well he proved your point because when he wanted a car that stirred the emotions, he skipped the entire Toyota/Scion/Lexus lineup and went with Mazda RX8. a car with more passion than reliability, design stilted by Ford bearucrats and a engine built for 3 years of trouble free bliss. The car is the definition of 'impulse buy'.
There's internet bombast and then there's the truth when money hits the table. In the real world, he agrees with you.
