Actually, those symptoms do point to the likelihood or air in the lines. The first application of brakes will compress the air in the lines. Subsequent applications of the brake will continue to be firm as the line pressure is still up if there is not enough time to allow the air to re-expand.
2004 Cruiser COMPLETE loss of brakes!! ??
- Thread starter sf76
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.
APKhaos
Unfixing the unfixable
bamachem,
Did you ever run the brake fluid reservoir dry?
If yes, have you checked for brake fluid leaks?
Did you ever run the brake fluid reservoir dry?
If yes, have you checked for brake fluid leaks?
This is typical of loose wheel bearings. The rotor
THANK YOU hdjeighty! You NAILED it!
So, the symptoms were unpredictable braking pressure and the occasional grinding noise during a turn. The brakes would present with a soft pedal with little resistance and a very long pedal stroke combined with very poor stopping performance on the initial press of the pedal, but a release and re-press would present full braking pressure, pedal resistance, and stopping performance.
I thought it was the Master Cylinder going bad.
A loose front passenger wheel bearing was the culprit. The wobbling rotor was contacting the caliper, causing the noise. It was bad enough that it popped the c-clip off the splined shaft which allowed the shaft to retract in the drive flange enough to strip off the retaining groove on the splined shaft. I hit the rotor with sandpaper, cleaned and repacked the bearings, replaced everything an then put 5 tack-welds on the tip of the shaft to retain the c-clip. The driver side was marginally OK on preload. I cleaned and repacked those bearings as well. Three hour job overall, but I went thru 12 nitrile gloves! Pics attached. You can see how bad the retaining ring is eroded, how deep the shaft was when I took the dust cap off, the grinding marks on the caliper, and the inner gap on the cv axle (the thing that tipped me off to the problem).
This all started in 2008 with a CV shaft replacement by the PO at a tire/lube shop and NOT by the dealership that they took the truck to for everything else... The star washer wasn't bent to retain the lock nut, which allowed both the lock nut and the spindle nut to work themselves loose over time. It took nearly 4 years to eventually work its way loose (no previous bearing repack like I thought). However, the truck was at World Toyota in Atlanta in Feb 2011 for a HUGE service at 88k miles that included Timing Belt, Serpentine Belt, Water Pump, Top End Cleaning, Rear Brake Pads, Front Brake Inspection, and 4 new Michelin Tires. Not a single mention anywhere in the service report of a loose wheel bearing then. There was no noise when we bought the truck a few months back, so I have to assume that once the nuts "broke loose", they backed off pretty quickly, making the problem much more evident.
THANK GOD for the drive flange design. The drive flange not only is the point or torque transfer from the CV axle to the wheel hub, but it also retains the spindle nuts so that they cannot back off completely, allowing you to lose a wheel. These nuts had backed all the way out until they were contacting the inner face of the drive flange - i.e. as worse as it can get with the Land Cruiser IFS system as it is designed.
Now that it's back together, all is fine with the brakes and the truck drives like new! The truck has always had a ever-so-slight looseness about it on the highway that I thought was due to an alignment (caster or toe) issue. Everything checked out fine on the machine, so I wasn't sure what could be causing it. It was tolerable, but it just didn't drive as good as either the 2000 UZJ or the 2007 UZJ that I owned previously.
Well, this fixed the road feel as well. Truck is now rock-solid at all speeds, and feels awesome!
So, the symptoms were unpredictable braking pressure and the occasional grinding noise during a turn. The brakes would present with a soft pedal with little resistance and a very long pedal stroke combined with very poor stopping performance on the initial press of the pedal, but a release and re-press would present full braking pressure, pedal resistance, and stopping performance.
I thought it was the Master Cylinder going bad.
A loose front passenger wheel bearing was the culprit. The wobbling rotor was contacting the caliper, causing the noise. It was bad enough that it popped the c-clip off the splined shaft which allowed the shaft to retract in the drive flange enough to strip off the retaining groove on the splined shaft. I hit the rotor with sandpaper, cleaned and repacked the bearings, replaced everything an then put 5 tack-welds on the tip of the shaft to retain the c-clip. The driver side was marginally OK on preload. I cleaned and repacked those bearings as well. Three hour job overall, but I went thru 12 nitrile gloves! Pics attached. You can see how bad the retaining ring is eroded, how deep the shaft was when I took the dust cap off, the grinding marks on the caliper, and the inner gap on the cv axle (the thing that tipped me off to the problem).
This all started in 2008 with a CV shaft replacement by the PO at a tire/lube shop and NOT by the dealership that they took the truck to for everything else... The star washer wasn't bent to retain the lock nut, which allowed both the lock nut and the spindle nut to work themselves loose over time. It took nearly 4 years to eventually work its way loose (no previous bearing repack like I thought). However, the truck was at World Toyota in Atlanta in Feb 2011 for a HUGE service at 88k miles that included Timing Belt, Serpentine Belt, Water Pump, Top End Cleaning, Rear Brake Pads, Front Brake Inspection, and 4 new Michelin Tires. Not a single mention anywhere in the service report of a loose wheel bearing then. There was no noise when we bought the truck a few months back, so I have to assume that once the nuts "broke loose", they backed off pretty quickly, making the problem much more evident.
THANK GOD for the drive flange design. The drive flange not only is the point or torque transfer from the CV axle to the wheel hub, but it also retains the spindle nuts so that they cannot back off completely, allowing you to lose a wheel. These nuts had backed all the way out until they were contacting the inner face of the drive flange - i.e. as worse as it can get with the Land Cruiser IFS system as it is designed.
Now that it's back together, all is fine with the brakes and the truck drives like new! The truck has always had a ever-so-slight looseness about it on the highway that I thought was due to an alignment (caster or toe) issue. Everything checked out fine on the machine, so I wasn't sure what could be causing it. It was tolerable, but it just didn't drive as good as either the 2000 UZJ or the 2007 UZJ that I owned previously.
Well, this fixed the road feel as well. Truck is now rock-solid at all speeds, and feels awesome!
Last edited:
Could either of those two things be my issue? after driving for a bit and coming to a near stop (on regular pavement, not going fast either) ill feel ABS kick in quickly then go away, then all the orange lights come on and the e-brake light. After this happens the lights stay on but braking feels fine. Glad you found the problem, I'm done hijacking now.
uHu
Bridgeburner
Andy, do I understand it correctly, that the lock nut actually hit the c-clip and made it wear through the end of the shaft? Or was it just the pressure from the loose hub?
Good that it was on the passenger side - if on the left, both nuts would have just come all the way off....
Good that it was on the passenger side - if on the left, both nuts would have just come all the way off....
The nuts cannot contact the c-clip because of the drive flange. The drive flange also prevents the nuts from coming all the way off while driving. Excellent engineering design, by the way.
When the spindle nuts are loose (both) and the hub/rotor flops around, it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on that c-clip, which just pops off. Once off, the splined shaft of the cv axle can move inboard, and if pulled inboard enough during a turn with droop, the splined section loses all contact with the drive flange, making a horrific noise. That happened yesterday morning, on our way home from vacation, prompting the unplanned hub bearing repack of both sides.
When the spindle nuts are loose (both) and the hub/rotor flops around, it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on that c-clip, which just pops off. Once off, the splined shaft of the cv axle can move inboard, and if pulled inboard enough during a turn with droop, the splined section loses all contact with the drive flange, making a horrific noise. That happened yesterday morning, on our way home from vacation, prompting the unplanned hub bearing repack of both sides.
Last edited:
uHu
Bridgeburner
Yes, of course. Had it open the other day in fact
- just looked at you photo....
The flange would move outward with the hub, if permitted. With both nuts loose, the hub would be held in by the brake parts only. (edit: When C-clip is popped)
Very descriptive. Will check hubs more often, particularly just after servicing.
Last edited:
Well, I think I am going to repack the bearings. My brake pedal WILL NOT firm up. I fully depressed it 10 times on Saturday and the pressure needed to fully depress was constant. I did hear the brake booster kick on but nothing changed 
I hope I don't need to rebuild/replace the MC
I hope I don't need to rebuild/replace the MCSorry, I should have been clear. Since the Caliper holds the rotor somewhat in place within a few mm of where it is supposed to be, then they hub assembly cannot move outboard enough to allow the nuts to completely back off the spindle because of the drive flange that is bolted to the outside of the hub assembly. The Caliper and the design of the drive flange system prevents the hub assembly from coming completely off the truck in the event that both spindle nuts are loose.
I should give credit where credit is due, I guess!
Well, I think I am going to repack the bearings. My brake pedal WILL NOT firm up. I fully depressed it 10 times on Saturday and the pressure needed to fully depress was constant. I did hear the brake booster kick on but nothing changed
You should do a bearing repack anyway, but since you can't get a firm pedal at all, that probably won't do anything for you.
Last edited by a moderator:
When did it get soft? Did it happen overnight or slowly over time? Have you compared it to another UZJ?
I would start with a repack of the bearings because it needs to be done anyway, and it will give you a good chance to inspect the calipers, rotors, and front brake pads. After that, I would do a complete flush of the brake fluid with new Dot 3/4 fluid. Then you should exercise the ABS and top off the fluid again, possibly even flushing again. You can also take it to Toyota to ensure that it is bled properly. If you still have a soft pedal, and since you have new fluid and a properly bled system with no air, THEN I would consider a MC rebuild. Parts are about $65. It would take someone with mechanical skills and tools about an hour to remove, an hour to clean/rebuild, then 30-40 min to re-install. THEN you have to do a system fill/bleed all over again.
I would start with a repack of the bearings because it needs to be done anyway, and it will give you a good chance to inspect the calipers, rotors, and front brake pads. After that, I would do a complete flush of the brake fluid with new Dot 3/4 fluid. Then you should exercise the ABS and top off the fluid again, possibly even flushing again. You can also take it to Toyota to ensure that it is bled properly. If you still have a soft pedal, and since you have new fluid and a properly bled system with no air, THEN I would consider a MC rebuild. Parts are about $65. It would take someone with mechanical skills and tools about an hour to remove, an hour to clean/rebuild, then 30-40 min to re-install. THEN you have to do a system fill/bleed all over again.
Pedal firmness has been lost over a time frame of 2 months. All pads and brake fluids have been replaced/flushed within the last 25K. I can't remember when the last time I had the bearings repacked, but with the way I drive and wheel I am sure they are due. I will get this done ASAP and report back. If that does not solve anything I will order the MC Rebuild kit and hand the job off to ACC over the summer. This may cause me to sell the headers I have sitting in my closet
. The truck still have full braking power at full force, but ABS seems to be kicking in very early and hindering stopping distance. I'm not sure if I can point my finger at my tires of not for causing the slippage under hard/immediate jab on the brakes.Yes, I feel stupid that I didn't think of that until you said something. I will get a full flush and proper bleed. Last time my brother and I bled the system while surfing google for tips. Also used a ghetto vacuum system bought at Autozone. Probably my issue is air in the lines.
How much should I be paying for a full system bleed and flush?Nick - pick up some good quality speed bleeders. It makes the job so much easier. You dont need that vacuum system.
With my knowledge of brake systems I would much rather have a shop with the right equipment and knowledge do this. I will watch them do it and then consider doing it myself next round. I just want to find out if I can fix the soft pedal feel, to confirm I don't have a bigger issues (MC rebuild)
