1000 ****ing percent.
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I think it's less controversial than just a bummer.
I know it's a complicated metric that's virtually impossible to pin down, but at the end of the day Toyota is saying that the combined weight of passengers and cargo should not exceed 941 lbs, and 941 lbs really isn't very much weight.
The upside? Plush ride.
- Thread starter
- #43
It does have a great ride and is more compliant than even the 200 series. The plush ride on a daily is a useful perk.
Even if I loaded the 250 up to the brink with people and crap, I bet it will handle it just fine and most owners wouldn’t give it a second thought.
Now towing with it, that’s a different story. It is not a towing rig and the GX/LX/Tundra/Sequoia are far better suited for that task. That’s where things could get dicey…
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Congrats on your new Land Cruiser!
I am curious - is it accurate to say that 250's are not that difficult to find & purchase right now?
I had assumed there would be a waiting list to purchase one. But, based on some of your prior posts trashing the 250 (some not even a week old), there's no way you were simultaneously on a waiting list to buy one... or were you?
Wondering what the supply & demand picture is out there in the real world.
I am curious - is it accurate to say that 250's are not that difficult to find & purchase right now?
I had assumed there would be a waiting list to purchase one. But, based on some of your prior posts trashing the 250 (some not even a week old), there's no way you were simultaneously on a waiting list to buy one... or were you?
Wondering what the supply & demand picture is out there in the real world.
@Zill , BIG CONGRATULATIONS on the new rig !!!
I am so happy to see all your feedback and to hear your comments.
Also, the interior assessment is pretty much the same I had when checked out the GX550, except for the 2 seats which did seem more cramped to me than what you report.
I really appreciate the effort to answer our silly questions and for the time. !
Enjoy the new toy !
I am so happy to see all your feedback and to hear your comments.
Also, the interior assessment is pretty much the same I had when checked out the GX550, except for the 2 seats which did seem more cramped to me than what you report.
I really appreciate the effort to answer our silly questions and for the time. !
Enjoy the new toy !
- Thread starter
- #46
I had my deposit with the dealer before the official announcement and was first in line for the pickings. I wasn’t going to pull it until I had some first hand experience with it. I was trashing it in the past because I was viewing as trying to be as capable as the land cruisers before it, which it really isn’t.
It’s more so suited to be a daily driving machine to replace peoples econoboxes, but VERY well built at that, fun and zippy, and does it better (and safer) than most of the econoboxes on the road.
The majority of people buy econoboxes and I do think this thing will be a hit in trying to capture a piece of that market.
Every 250 coming in to the dealer (all 8) were already pre-sold, but I should have asked how big the remaining list was.
I was lucky to get mine for MSRP (Findlay Toyota of Spokane), and even haggled the 4Runner trade in to be 2k higher than KBB
If the 6th gen 4Runner interior is built anything like the Tacoma (which it appears to be the same), then this Land Cruiser is a no brainer to purchase it for a slightly higher premium (if budget allows). The interior alone blows the Tacoma out of the water (granted, that is built in Mexico). But if both are sitting on the lot, I truly do believe people will spring for the slightly more expensive Land Cruiser once they get their hands on it. (It’s not a 40-50k price difference that we were seeing on the 200 series)
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I can provide some insight on my experience shopping around. This is in Oregon, YMMV regionally.
Toyota's website is fairly accurate, expand the search out whatever distance you are willing to go.......... chop down your trim/features to what you want, then search. It seems to be pretty accurate with showing allocations coming from like..... May 6 - 30 and I see another wave from like May 22 - June 15 or so
These are also showing ones that have "sale pending"
Most dealerships also have their price listed, and you can compare on that same screen to what they are asking vs what is listed as "SRP" and it's very obvious which dealers are adding a $5k or $10k markup.
I'm only searching for 1 color of 1958, so my searches are very limited/restricted. Of 3 dealers that were showing as receiving one this month, with no pending sale AND a listed "dealer asking price", here are my results:
Dealer 1 (Salem): The LC was not spoken for, they were selling MSRP with no added BS and taking $1000 Deposits. When I got far enough with this to give a deposit they realized I'm in another part of the state and told me they are only taking reservations for local customers and I could purchase this if it wasn't spoken for before it delivers. Bummed
Dealer 2 (Albany): They are selling for "MSRP", apparently........... but, they are adding 3 BS/Junk features to the truck that are not negotiable..... the total was $4600, and I forgot exactly what it was and deleted their email, "Clear Bra" was one, I think a ceramic coat/sealant, and something electronic like anti-theft or tracking device.
Dealer 3 (Roseburg): I emailed them and received a few back and forth responses, but when I was clear about only paying MSRP, asking if they would accept a deposit from me being 200 miles away, AND to confirm they aren't adding any BS......... they insisted on a phone call to "discuss the details". They are 3.5 hours from me so that's the most effort for me to get to , and I didn't like the skirting of response so I've yet to continue follow up.
TL/DR: Depending on what you are looking for, they are def out there and you don't need to pay markups.
- Thread starter
- #48
Thanks!!@Zill , BIG CONGRATULATIONS on the new rig !!!
I am so happy to see all your feedback and to hear your comments.
Also, the interior assessment is pretty much the same I had when checked out the GX550, except for the 2 seats which did seem more cramped to me than what you report.
I really appreciate the effort to answer our silly questions and for the time. !
Enjoy the new toy !
To comment on the front seats, I will say the 200 had more room to “man” spread, and the 250 is a tighter fit, but thankfully Toyota kept the nice padding on both knees (both on the door and center console) to rest your knees on. It actually somewhat supports your legs since you have something to rest against if that makes any sense.
I can’t find any on a dealer lot right now near me. They are all presold and at least one dealership has at least $10k ADM n each one.
So, no, I don’t think your statement is accurate.
Thanks again !
I would love to hear more from you on that and the 2nd row space for passengers as you see time evolved... I have the feeling the LC/GX are more LC80's space wise in the 2nd row.
If I could find a LC250 to buy it now, I would ... I don't see nothing on Texas.
Fort9378
SILVER Star
The availability is definitely regional. Someone on another forum rolled up to Darcars in MD and found a 1958 on the showroom floor for MSRP. The DMV (DC, Maryland, Virginia) seems to have plenty of availability. However some states in the gulf states region haven't even received a single allocation yet.
Fort9378
SILVER Star
I appreciate this perspective. I think it's what the vocal minority has been missing. No one is expecting a Prado to replace the LC in capability. Anyone buying for capability knows exactly what they're buying. The uneducated buyer doesn't care about the capability the LC is famous for anyway.
When you evaluate the 250 for the sum of its parts it's still shaping up to be a great vehicle. It just isn't the 300, and it will never be. There will be a lot of new owners (like myself) looking for a step up from the Taco/4runner world who still want to stick with Toyota and the 250 (or GX) is the perfect vehicle for that. I don't care if they call it LC, Prado, or Toyota Tonka. It meets the capabilities I'm looking for.
The new American LC being a Prado doesn't diminish the history of the previous models. I feel like some of the people who are so upset need to evaluate if they bought their Cruisers for the capability or the name plate. I get the feeling for some it's the latter. The flagship cruiser in the US is still gone. That hasn't changed from the end of the 200 to now. It's time to move past that. Or buy an LX. Whatever floats your boat.
I look forward to this section of mud actually being filled with tech talk and hopefully watching the grumbling fade into obscurity.
- Thread starter
- #53
I definitely expect many 4Runner and Taco owners to get their feet finally wet with some of the Land Cruiser magic that has swept most of the world outside the US. It’s due time and you will be blown away when you drive one and compare it to the 5th gen 4Runner and 3rd gen Tacoma. It’s in a different league for sure.
With that, I do hope once the common mass knows about the Land Cruiser magic, that Toyota will decide to bring back the 300 GR to the States and it will sell better when more people are aware of the nameplate. It’s the only hope we have to get the forbidden fruit
The 250 is a great advertising tool for the Land Cruiser nameplate at this point. Somewhat “cheap” (relatively) while also being built to a different caliber on the inside than any of the domestic crap we get here in the States. It’s not even close…
I would argue that the 250 interior is better built (robust as hell) than most of the European brands on the market. Not for the leather suppleness, but the fit and finish, and absolutely zero play with any of the interior bits. It’s nuts how they made it this tight at this price point.
I just went outside to test it out - the center console and doors do not creak at all with any amount of force that I would comfortably give it in a side to side motion. The one thing that makes a very subtle squeak is the infotainment display, which makes sense since it juts out ever so slightly from the top of the dash and they don’t have as many mounting fastener point options to use and support it.
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Thanks for your review. Today I happened to watch Demuro's 250 video shot 3 weeks ago with his impressions. They seem to be quite in line with yours. His test truck was also heritage blue but had the different headlights. He mentioned the funky trailer hitch cover ("looks like a diaper"), that the throttle response was impressive, and also that the 250 was more comfortable/had a better driving feel than the 200.I wanted to start out by saying, I am sorry for the flack I have given the LC 250 in my previous posts. I did not give the Toyota the benefit of the doubt with this rig, and I should have.
We just picked up a First Edition LC 250 in heritage blue yesterday (it’s nickname is Smurf) to replace my wife’s 4runner, and I have to say I am very impressed. I have owned my 200 for the past 4 years, and I am quite familiar with it at this point so I wanted to shed some light on the differences I have noticed so far.
Exterior:
The pictures do not do this thing justice. In person, it’s significantly better looking.
The 250’s front end in person looks incredible and the wide fender flares makes it have a wide presence on the road. I was shocked at how well it looked it in person, and it is near the same size as the 200 series. The paint appears to be fairly high quality, but there is some more orange peel compared to my 2016 200 series paint job. I still wish Toyota would have painted the rear bumper on the 250, but in person, it doesn’t look nearly as out of place as in the pictures.
I am very fond of the round front headlamps and that’s hands down my choice for the front end. It makes the front end look like a (much) better Ford Bronco, but with a 60 series inspired twist, and they just knocked it out of the park on the front end when you’re looking at the rig with the round halo lights. Most of you will start seeing this in your rear view mirror when more 250's are driving around and know what I mean.
On the road, I do see some slight hood flutter on the 250 near the windshield whereas the 200 series was rock solid. I noticed it at first over some bumpy roads, but after driving it for a few hours, it doesn’t really bother me anymore since I’m not looking at that part of the hood while driving anyway. I understand they had to cut weight somewhere and this is one of those pieces.
Also, this was great news to me. The car came with a revised smaller tow hitch cover that was sitting in the back of the car, so I immediately took off the hitch cover that sticks out damn near half a mile, and threw the smaller cover on. I have no idea what Toyota was thinking when they threw that ugly full cover piece on the rig in the first place.
Interior:
I was surprised to see how well built and put together the interior of the 250 is. It is a land cruiser after all, and is built as drum tight as the 200 series for the interior components. This is truly what separates the Land Cruiser from the American/Mexican made Tundra/Sequoia/Tacoma counterparts. You will feel it immediately when you get in and start touching the interior bits.
The 250 is silent for squeaks and rattles, even more than my 200 series. Granted, the 200 series does have 81k miles and 9 years of age on it so I’ll give the 200 a break.
One immediate difference between the rigs that you’ll notice is the lack of leather/pleather wrapped interior surfaces on the 250 compared to the 200, the big one being where the knee pads are. But that doesn’t mean it feels cheap either. Pretty much every component has either very soft touch plastic (feels like there’s actually some foam on it), or a modern-day plastic with a very “grippy” texture. It’s hard to describe, but it doesn’t feel cheap. Also, the top dash material almost feels like a mixture of rubber and plastic as well, very odd material indeed…
If I had to say one piece of the interior that was improved over the 200 was the front seats. The adjustable front seat extender on the premium/FE 250 (I don’t believe it’s available for the base 1958 model) is mandatory for taller people. It makes the 250 seats more comfortable than the 200 series by a long shot. You actually get some thigh support for once in a land cruiser… Also, the back support conforms to your back much better than the 200 series. The foam itself while sitting in the seat also feels softer.
One odd thing I noticed on the 250 is it doesn’t feel super cramped in your shoulder/chest area because they molded the upper arm rest area (on the top of the door) to not be as wide. This gives you interior space, but it took the ability to easily hold your arm up on the higher portion of the door while cruising, and you are kind of forced to keep your arm at the regular arm rest area (which on the premium/FE model still feels great since you get a pleather/padded arm rest). If you have your windows down though, this is not a problem and it’s almost a perfect height for me to keep my arm rested with some of my arm sitting on the window seal area (if that makes any sense). This was the compromise Toyota made to give you some more interior room, but also gave you the wide fender flares on the outside of the rig which gives the land cruiser that wide stance on the exterior.
The foot area for where your left foot sits has been compromised a bit (I’m sure due to some safety crumple zone design), and you don’t have nearly as much room for your left foot to lay flat on the ground and it’s kind of forced to lay on the angled foot rest. Not a terrible issue, but something you will notice.
The center console arm rest is an improvement from a seating position perspective over the 200. The height feels very natural and you kind of a get a “cockpit” vibe where your arm lays exactly where you would naturally have your hands on the steering wheel. The 200 series was slightly lower and I always felt like it needed to be 2-3 inches higher. Yes, it appears they wrapped it with what appears to be pleather, instead of real leather on the 200, but it still feels okay (it’s not like your elbow will notice this on a daily basis haha). I would take the higher position over the leather any day of the week. Another note to add is the center arm rest 250 feels tighter than even the 200 in this department. The 200-arm rest had just a bit of give, but the 250 has no play at all. Toyota killed it on the center arm rest design.
The 200 series has better button feel on the steering wheel controls than the 250 - where the 200 has more weight and substantial feeling buttons, but the 250 has lighter buttons but still has some tactile "click" to it. You can tell this is where they cut some costs on the new platform.
The interior leather is not as silky smooth and soft as the semi-aniline leather on the 2016-2021 land cruiser (that is obviously the best feeling due to being Lexus grade), and it’s not as good as the 2008-2015 (iron) leather). If I had to grade it, it would be one step down from the 2008-2015 land cruiser leather texture, but WAY better than any of the crap Toyota throws in their lower tier products.
Driving Dynamics:
Holy crap does the 250 haul ass. It almost feels unwieldy in traffic because you move way faster off the line than the 200 series with little throttle. You will not be disappointed in the power department. I bet the 200 series is faster, but you do need to wrap the V8 engine up to get this level of acceleration. The big difference is the 250 moves you quickly in a low rpm range due to the hybrid battery torque off the line.
The 4 banger sounds like a fart cannon compared to the 200 V8. Obviously, this is a win for the 200 and one of the hallmarks of any great V8 engine. If engine sound is important to you, the 250 is not the rig for you.
One thing that will drive you nuts is at a stop light, the 250 will auto shut off the engine (I am not aware of any way to turn this off – no auto shut off button in the cabin…), and taking off from a red light, you will feel an ever so slight shutter (almost like a transmission slip) while the engine is turning back on. If I had to give one deal breaker for the driving dynamics, this will be something you will need to test drive and see if you can live with it. What makes the situation even worse, is on occasion, when you are slowing down to a near (California) stop and wanting to accelerate, the engine will shut off, and you will be dead in the water for a blip of time while the engine turns back on. Toyota dropped the ball in this department and I hope they can fix it in a future TSB... I will note, once the engine is on and running, it takes off like a rocket ship and I have no complaints beyond that. It’s fast and the transmission appears to always be in the right gear when you give it power. Compared to the 200 series that has the 8-speed transmission, the 200 series is a dog and is hesitant to want to up-shift to give you power while going up a hill. The 250 is quick and snappy (and wants to actually up-shift) which is nice to see.
Edit - this previous post is not applicable if you put the 250 in tow haul mode. It makes it so the engine does not shut off and you have no shudder off the line.
One other complaint I have with the 250 is the constant beeping from all the safety systems they threw in the rig. Thank the lord you can turn most of this crap off, but there is one system that turns itself back on every time you start the rig. The FTCA (Front Traffic Cross Alert system)… If you are stopped at a T-intersection and if there is a car coming by, and you are anticipating your chance for an opening, if you take your foot off the brake to give yourself time to move it over to the accelerator pedal while the car is coming by (in anticipation to take off and get into traffic), it will beep at you. Pretty frustrating…
Wind noise and NVH is higher on the 250 compared to the 200. I think most of it is due to more of a boxy design on the 250 and I bet this is where Toyota cut some of the sound proofing weight over the 200. It’s not terrible and way better than most unibody rigs since it doesn’t sound “hollow”, but it does not sound like a bank vault in the interior like the 200. (The rattily 4 cylinder does not help either)
One perk of the 250 is how light the steering is. It’s buttery smooth and effortless in low speed situations (a pinky can turn the wheel), but it firms up while on the road depending on your speed. Plus the leather wrapped steering wheel is entirely heated (not just the sides anymore). Plus when you click the heated steering button, it stays on the next time you startup the rig (no need to hit that button every time you get in the car in the winter)
The land cruiser magic is still present on the 250 with how planted it feels on the road. It’s lighter and more nimble while turning corners compared to the 200, but it did lose some of the “weight” feeling that’s well loved on the 200.
Gas mileage so far in the city:
21 MPG in Sport mode
22 MPG in Normal mode
23 MPG in Eco mode
I have not driven it much on the highway yet to get a good number for this.
Final Thoughts
The 250 series is a great addition to the land cruiser line up. It is far better than the outgoing 4runner, but it does have some deficiencies compared to the 200 (while also having some improvements). For me, if I were to daily a car for commuting, the 250 is the clear winner over the 200, but it is not a replacement for the 200 for all situations. Getting near double the city gas mileage does have the savings add up over 100-200k miles, and with my daily commute being more than an hour of driving each day in the city, I am having a hard time with this. I am probably going to keep the 200 in the stable because it is something special and use it for off roading trips, but down the road, I will probably add the 250 as my daily driver as well (that’s how good it is for daily driving). I don’t want to drive a small econobox everyday since I like the safety of a big heavy vehicle and presence on the road, and the 250 kept a lot of that “safe sense” while also keeping the gas bill down every week at the pump.
P.S. since this was a brand-new platform, we did opt for the 7 year 100k mile bumper to bumper factory warranty which was $3,500. Dealer cost was a little over $3,300 so I didn’t get too hosed on their markup.
Anyways, I hope this comparison throws some light on the subject and moving forward, I won’t be so negative on this rig. (unless this rig turns out to be unreliable which the jury is still out on that) It serves a purpose, but not necessarily the same purpose as the 200 series.
For complaints, I recall: No third row, lack of interior styling compared to 4Runner TRD Pro, and wished it had v6 twin turbo as an option.
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Happy to hear a positive review in this swamp of negativity. Sounds like a perfect truck for my DD needs. The 80 stays in the stable. Also hoping there a way to kill the auto stop/start other than tow mode. My wife’s Outback does that and it’s down right dangerous. It’s the co-pilot’s responsibility to disable that upon initial start-up. Originally it was like four screens deep on the infotainment but a software update landed a Home Screen button to kill it now.
My local dealer’s list is more than 60 deep. I was #2 out of the gate and now #1 waiting for a LC-premium in trail dust/java to hit allocation. I’m sure they will probably deliver 20-30 before my combo hits. I’m in no rush. I’ve got another 17 months until I have to give up my current DD to a teenager.
My local dealer’s list is more than 60 deep. I was #2 out of the gate and now #1 waiting for a LC-premium in trail dust/java to hit allocation. I’m sure they will probably deliver 20-30 before my combo hits. I’m in no rush. I’ve got another 17 months until I have to give up my current DD to a teenager.
- Thread starter
- #56
I actually think the Land Cruiser interior is much better styled in a classy kind of look. At night, the interior has nice white ambient lights all over the place (door pockets, door handles, at your feet, buttons). It’s a much more subtle design rather than the screaming “TOYOTA” badge on the front dash.
I am glad the LC only came with the 4 popper since I would have never given it a chance and spent a lot more money on gas over the life of the vehicle with a V6. As long as you put it in tow haul mode, It’s one hell of a drive train. I would not recommend anyone to drive this thing in its current form while out of Tow Haul mode…
This is coming from somebody who is a die hard V8 fan. Hats off to Toyota for creating such a powerful drive train that can sip gas while hauling around 5k+ lbs. in an effortless fashion - It’s magic.
The TTV6 is a very powerful drivetrain - no doubt, but it just doesn’t make sense at 15 MPG city on premium gas. Just stick with the 5.7L V8 on regular gas at that point.
One perk of the battery pack in the back floor. Since they robbed us from the split tailgate, you can open the rear glass and reach most of the back cabin space due to the higher load floor to make sure stuff doesn’t fly out the trunk before fully opening it up.
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Just picked up a FE 250, so far pretty impressed but auto stop was definitely a concern as well. Sales person said it can be by-passed like other Toyotas, obviously I see now he was referring to non-hybrids.
You can also bypass auto stop by throwing shifter in manual mode, for what’s it worth. I noticed it would not shut off when I came to a stop in M, and you can leave it in M8 if you don’t feel like shifting.
I will definitely be keeping the 200, as well as the 100 series. In fact just picked up another 4th Gen 4R Sport Ed V8 a month ago, nothing compares or even come close to the smooth and silky 2UZ-FE, IMHO…
So aside from the obvious benefit of disabling the auto start/stop, is tow/haul just a change to shift points?
Yes. Keeps you in lower gear longer when speeding up / slowing down.
Hey wait, i thought everyone on this forum wanted a stripped down poverty pack truck? Did something change?I do agree, but the 1958 does have a lot of differences on the interior plastics compared to the LC grades (not just the seat materials). To me, once people get their hands on both, I think a lot of people will opt for the LC grade instead of the 1958. One appears to be a “work truck” trim and the other provides some really good touch points. You do actually get something for your money in the LC trim.
However, I do think the fasteners underneath both model types will be the same, and both will be drum tight and rattle free
I can’t complain about options.
