200 Vs. 250 FE - Owners Perspective (3 Viewers)

[hoser]

Yes, you're making my point, how are these other manufacturers able to continue to do that while also meeting stricter CAFE standards?

Also, we're talking about current models and their mpg and emissions, I doubt any 250 or GX owners would be interested in betting on these vehicles making it over 400k miles and 23+ years like my 100 series anyways.

CAFE standard is a US regulation. It is a mileage standard for a vehicle class but it is also fleetwide. If the particular vehicle doesn't meet the standard, it can be offset with credits or penalties. Manufacturers gain credits when their average fuel economy of their FLEET exceed the standards for a particular year... and then credit used towards future years.

Folks often judge success or failure of a vehicle (LC200) by the number of sales..... but I don't think Toyota was trying to sell a ton of 200's in the US.... rather only make a profit and maybe appease the LC enthusiasts. The CAFE standard for 2020 Light Truck in the US is 31 mpg. The LC200 falls way short and has to be offset by credits/penalties. The more they sell, the more credits they need to offset. So maximizing profit per vehicle makes sense to me. Only offer the fully loaded model.

AFAIK, Toyota has only ONE 2024 pure electric vehicle offering in the US, Mercedes has SIX.

 

[Patassa]

Historically Lexus has always been behind the curve of their rivals in terms of luxury, tech, and power train. However, they still used very nice materials and the high level of build quality was apparent throughout the line up. They are still behind the curve today with most of their "new" tech and features being things we have seen in other makes for the last 5+ years. Where things have gotten shaky however is the build quality is now inconsistent across models and some of the new materials that are being used in their latest design language just miss the mark when it comes to feeling luxurious. The materials are nice, they aren't 2000's GM sh!tbox grade but they feel more like upper trim Toyota bits than Lexus luxury. I.E. things you would find in a fully loaded Highlander, Camry, or LC250. I honestly feel like some of the Toyota variants of these models have ended up with nicer interiors and build quality. So is Toyota punching up in that department or has Lexus fallen down a peg?

Agree with all of this. And good point about the inconsistencies across the line up.

I think what I would have expected to see was as CAFE standards tightened, cars that used to really outshine Lexus in the luxury department (let's just say the germans ones for brevity, and before CAFE standards really had any teeth), would have had to drastically drop their former level of interior luxury/premium standards, and Lexus would only have a slight drop because they were never overboard on luxury to begin with. But that doesn't seem to have happened. I rented a BMW M something something in Scotland recently and the thing was like a futuristic spaceship inside and felt like a true luxury experience. However, it's at a similar price point as Lexus TX which feels like a run of the mill toyota inside to me.

 

[Patassa]

CAFE standard is a US regulation.

It's a regulation for cars sold to operate in the US. I'm not sure what hair we're trying to split here?

 

[SanJuanJ]

Agree with all of this. And good point about the inconsistencies across the line up.

I think what I would have expected to see was as CAFE standards tightened, cars that used to really outshine Lexus in the luxury department (let's just say the germans ones for brevity, and before CAFE standards really had any teeth), would have had to drastically drop their former level of interior luxury/premium standards, and Lexus would only have a slight drop because they were never overboard on luxury to begin with. But that doesn't seem to have happened. I rented a BMW M something something in Scotland recently and the thing was like a futuristic spaceship inside and felt like a true luxury experience. However, it's at a similar price point as Lexus TX which feels like a run of the mill toyota inside to me.

So jump ship and buy a BMW. Problem solved.

 

[Patassa]

So jump ship and buy a BMW. Problem solved.

Le sigh....

I guess if you can't follow an argument, make general observations about modern build quality, or have anything intelligent to add to a discussion you do...that.

 

[Patassa]

Bottom line I guess is CAFE standards are to blame for most of our frustrations on this board. Otherwise we'd probably have heavy duty, V8 powered triple locked Landcruisers from stick shift cloth seats up to new born baby calf leather trims and everything in between. Save us Barron, tell your dad cafe is some sissy french thing, no place for that in America.

 

[Specialeyes]

No doubt that without CAFE the entire automotive landscape looks different today. I’d love to see that alternate timeline/multiverse scenario.

 

[SanJuanJ]

Le sigh....

I guess if you can't follow an argument, make general observations about modern build quality, or have anything intelligent to add to a discussion you do...that.

Sharp retort. You seem to do a lot of complaining. I was just suggesting instead of bitching about a brand that clearly pisses you off and is letting you down, go with the one you prefer. We all think that the drop in modern build quality and reliability is an effhing bummer. But pick your poison.

 

[Patassa]

Sharp retort. You seem to do a lot of complaining. I was just suggesting instead of bitching about a brand that clearly pisses you off, go with the one you prefer.

Yeah it's just an idiotic response though.

A lot of complaining? An article was posted about the 250, comments were made about modern car build quality, I added my own comment to the chorus from my own experience, it's called a discussion forum and there is context, maybe you're new to the internet though. Bitching about a brand that pisses me off? I've owned a toyota for over 20 years and have nothing but great things to say about it. I also own a lexus and I think the build quality is less than it should be for the price charged, it's not that emotional for me, maybe it is for you. I've never "preferred" to own a BWM, if you can't understand what a comparison point is, there are classes for that. You're a troll and have added nothing of value to this thread. Maybe instead of doing that, you try another approach.

 

[SanJuanJ]

Yeah it's just an idiotic response though.

A lot of complaining? An article was posted about the 250, comments were made about modern car build quality, I added my own comment to the chorus from my own experience, it's called a discussion forum and there is context, maybe you're new to the internet though. Bitching about a brand that pisses me off? I've owned a toyota for over 20 years and have nothing but great things to say about it. I also own a lexus and I think the build quality is less than it should be for the price charged, it's not that emotional for me, maybe it is for you. I've never "preferred" to own a BWM, if you can't understand what a comparison point is, there are classes for that. You're a troll and have added nothing of value to this thread. Maybe instead of doing that, you try another approach.

OK. I'll take some classes on comparison points.

 

[rexington14]

Agree with all of this. And good point about the inconsistencies across the line up.

I think what I would have expected to see was as CAFE standards tightened, cars that used to really outshine Lexus in the luxury department (let's just say the germans ones for brevity, and before CAFE standards really had any teeth), would have had to drastically drop their former level of interior luxury/premium standards, and Lexus would only have a slight drop because they were never overboard on luxury to begin with. But that doesn't seem to have happened. I rented a BMW M something something in Scotland recently and the thing was like a futuristic spaceship inside and felt like a true luxury experience. However, it's at a similar price point as Lexus TX which feels like a run of the mill toyota inside to me.

Assuming this was your "original point"...

Why would you expect a luxury auto manufacturer who's main value proposition is -- luxury -- to lower their luxury standards which would obviously make them less appealing to their core target market? It would only make sense to compromise anywhere else they could rather than compromise the core identity of the brand. Where exactly did they compromise instead? Who knows, and I don't care, but I won't be surprised if the reliability is much much worse than before as if it wasn't already bad enough.

Lexus (Toyota) buyers on the other hand have a high expectation of longevity and reliability that must be maintained, CAFE era or not. It's the identity of the brands. So, the same thinking would apply, they would rather compromise anywhere else rather than lose customer faith in this area. So, maybe that's why you notice a lower standard in build refinement and materials.

 

[SanJuanJ]

Assuming this was your "original point"...

Why would you expect a luxury auto manufacturer who's main value proposition is -- luxury -- to lower their luxury standards which would obviously make them less appealing to their core target market? It would only make sense to compromise anywhere else they could rather than compromise the core identity of the brand. Where exactly did they compromise instead? Who knows, and I don't care, but I won't be surprised if the reliability is much much worse than before as if it wasn't already bad enough.

Lexus (Toyota) buyers on the other hand have a high expectation of longevity and reliability that must be maintained, CAFE era or not. It's the identity of the brands. So, the same thinking would apply, they would rather compromise anywhere else rather than lose customer faith in this area. So, maybe that's why you notice a lower standard in build refinement and materials.

This, and a $30k reduction in price from the "real" Land Cruiser. WTAF do people expect? If it's so objectionable, go spend $70k for a 200 series with 70,000 miles on it. To each their own.

 

[Noctilucent]

You missed the point of my argument the first time I made it and you're still missing it. YOU brought up vehicles lasting 20+ years, which you could only be talking about the 100 series or older, maybe predicting the lifespan of the 200s too? Otherwise you're claiming you believe the 250 was built for a 20+ year life?


At no point in my original argument did I bring up or make any claims or predictions about longevity or reliability of new cars. That was you, and others.

Here’s a 1986 TURBO 4Runner still running strong after 38 years proof of Toyota’s legendary durability. I have no doubt the 250 Series could last just as long with proper care. The first-gen Toyota 4Runner Turbo is rare, bulletproof, and in high demand - Hagerty Media - https://www.hagerty.com/media/buying-and-selling/auctions/first-gen-toyota-4runner-turbo-rare/

 

[Rednexus]

No doubt that without CAFE the entire automotive landscape looks different today. I’d love to see that alternate timeline/multiverse scenario.

It's certainly not all bad - it is just, IMO, well past the point of diminishing returns when the sacrifices to eek out another 0.05 mpg across the fleet result in the terrible vehicles we are getting now. That's the problem with most types of regulations like this, they are well intentioned and effective at first - forcing a complacent industry to innovate - but the goal posts keep getting moved further and further out. The folks at the agencies moving those goal posts are often unaware about all of the unintended consequences they are creating - the unreliable and expensive cars that we are all forced to buy that will end up in a junkyard a lot sooner than in the past. After all, the road to hell is paved in good intentions.

My 1997 Saturn college-car, with a 5-speed manual got 40 mpg and sometimes higher if I kept it at 60 mph or less. That car weighed around 2,300# and only had 100 horsepower. It would also never pass modern crash test or tailpipe emissions standards.

 

[Patassa]

Assuming this was your "original point"...

Why would you expect a luxury auto manufacturer who's main value proposition is -- luxury -- to lower their luxury standards which would obviously make them less appealing to their core target market? It would only make sense to compromise anywhere else they could rather than compromise the core identity of the brand. Where exactly did they compromise instead? Who knows, and I don't care, but I won't be surprised if the reliability is much much worse than before as if it wasn't already bad enough.

Lexus (Toyota) buyers on the other hand have a high expectation of longevity and reliability that must be maintained, CAFE era or not. It's the identity of the brands. So, the same thinking would apply, they would rather compromise anywhere else rather than lose customer faith in this area. So, maybe that's why you notice a lower standard in build refinement and materials.

Except Lexus has not only downgraded interior materials they also replaced their dead reliable V6's and V8's with questionable turbo charged 4s and 6s. So they seem to have compromised in that department too. The people waiting for their TTV6's to possibly grenade or get ripped out and replaced in their brand new 70-110k Lexus' probably have their faith shaken right now. Someone made the point about Mercedes having multiple EVs in their line up, and if they sell enough of them, that would tip the cafe score down so they could build lower scoring stuff, that's a good point I hadn't considered about Toyota's predicament.

 

[Patassa]

It's certainly not all bad - it is just, IMO, well past the point of diminishing returns when the sacrifices to eek out another 0.05 mpg across the fleet result in the terrible vehicles we are getting now. That's the problem with most types of regulations like this, they are well intentioned and effective at first - forcing a complacent industry to innovate - but the goal posts keep getting moved further and further out. The folks at the agencies moving those goal posts are often unaware about all of the unintended consequences they are creating - the unreliable and expensive cars that we are all forced to buy that will end up in a junkyard a lot sooner than in the past. After all, the road to hell is paved in good intentions.

My 1997 Saturn college-car, with a 5-speed manual got 40 mpg and sometimes higher if I kept it at 60 mph or less. That car weighed around 2,300# and only had 100 horsepower. It would also never pass modern crash test or tailpipe emissions standards.

If my history if correct, the original intention of CAFE standards was to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. So like so many bills/acts that get passed, the justification for it today has morphed into something unrecognizable from its original intent. Now it's just another green house gas boondoggle of questionable value and even more questionable technical expectations.

 

[rexington14]

Except Lexus has not only downgraded interior materials they also replaced their dead reliable V6's and V8's with questionable turbo charged 4s and 6s. So they seem to have compromised in that department too.

Right - the engines had to be redesigned because of the regulations. These are high volume models we are talking about.

My point is nothing has really changed for the new buyer. You still buy a new Toyota / Lexus model in 2024+ because of the expected reliability and longevity advantages over the other manufacturers (who are also governed by the same regulations). Even if the regulations cause reliability across the board to decrease, Toyota will still maintain their (huge) advantage in this area. And if you don't think they will, I ask again, then why did you buy the Lexus?

 

[rexington14]

This, and a $30k reduction in price from the "real" Land Cruiser. WTAF do people expect? If it's so objectionable, go spend $70k for a 200 series with 70,000 miles on it. To each their own.

The quality of a vehicle's interior can be assessed within 1-2 minutes of sitting in the vehicle. Don't like it, don't buy it.

 

[Jetboy]

What new vehicle being sold today would though?

CAFE killed simplicity

This one: Not for long, but still on lots for a few more months. I'd bet a dollar on it outlasting a new 100 or 200 if you bought all 3 today and drove them for as long as they'd go with only routine maintenance until they quit moving. Just less issues with the 1GR over either of the v8s.

Lexus said it was going 100% electric by 2030. I'm going out on a limb and assume Lexus backs off of that date. But if it does hold - this is the last ICE version of the GX and LX for North America. Probably no reason to even do a mid-cycle update if this is a one-shot vehicle. That probably does open the door back to a Land Cruiser having a broader range when there's no Lexus version. Possibly the answer here is to just wait if you don't like the current lineup. If there is no Lexus version of the LC300 or GX after 2030 with a gas engine, there's really no reason to hold back on those products in the Toyota midsize SUV lineup.

 

[Noctilucent]

This one: Not for long, but still on lots for a few more months. I'd bet a dollar on it outlasting a new 100 or 200 if you bought all 3 today and drove them for as long as they'd go with only routine maintenance until they quit moving. Just less issues with the 1GR over either of the v8s.
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Agreed.