100 in the sand dunes... problems! (80 comparison)

[BMWSTOY]

Interesting read, thanks to all.
I agree with " A/T's are better than mudders " I have pulled several trucks out of the Great Sand Dunes in Colorado with Mudders on and I really floated with my Michelin LTX A/T's - 31X10.5X15 - not even close to an 18" print. But then again, driving ability is the key to many situations. I am not saying I am a great off-roader, I am saying the majority are NOT!

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

I never felt the system cut throttle when I was on a deep muddy road. Do you have the names of the two magazine articles that reported this?

Don't remember. It was around when the Seq came out.

 

[FirstToy]

I don't argue with "you select few" any longer.

argue?
You are stating incorrect assumptions based on what? ATRAC systems are not the same in all Toyotas. Sorry if think that's an argument, it isn't.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

From the Toyoa US site:

"Active TRAC
Using sensors at all four wheels to monitor a loss of traction, Active TRAC employs brake and throttle control to reduce wheelspin and transfer torque to the wheel with the most traction. The system can be found on the Land Cruiser and 4-wheel-drive versions of 4Runner and the all-new Sequoia."

There is one system...Active TRAC. Toyota uses this system as well as Mitsubishi (in the past). The system is the same. It's the software that is designed and flashed for each specific vehicle that differs. This is why TRAC "operates" differently on each vehicle despite the system being the same.

The words Active TRAC and A-TRAC and TRAC are synonimus. Some mention a A-TRAC II and II+ which holds no merit as no vehicle maker touts such a terminology. Search the web for A-TRAC II or Active TRAC II or II+.....nothing of substance except forum threads.

It's PROGRAMMING. That simple. Is the FJ PROGRAMMING tighter than the 100? Yes...a tad. Does the programming differ for a Torsen CDL? Yes. Is the 100 tighter than the Seq? Yes...by a lot. Different purpose vehicles results in a differently programmed A-TRAC.

This is my last posting on this topic on this thread.

http://www.toyota.com/html/help/glossary.html

 

[FirstToy]

All 120 platform suv's use Toyota's ATRAC II+
It is improved over the Land Cruiser 100 ATRAC II and a big leap forward from 3rd Gen 4Runner ATRAC I. It uses 2 sensors per wheel (not 1) to more accurately and quickly react to situations.

Here is an excerpt from Overlander.com's Prado 120 review:
"The most impressive of these systems is the second generation A-TRC traction control. Second gen’ A-TRC was introduced on the latest 100 Series but Prado Chief Engineer Kunihiro Hoshi says that the system in the Prado 120 is better still. It does work extremely well. On a steep, rutted climb on the test loop, the Prado Grande crawled up with ease despite the fact that we deliberately took a hard line and lifted wheels in the air. More senior members of the 4WD press were heard to mutter “A 40 Series wouldn’t have got up there”, as their old-school mates nodded in agreement."
http://www.overlander.com.au/pg/veh...ests.php?id=216

Another KEY FACTOR is the use of Center Diff Lock (button located to the left of the steering wheel on the lower dash. The button has a diagram of the 4 wheels and X in the center).
Without the center differential locked, your VSC (vehicle skid control)remains on. In this case, it will cut power to your wheels just when you may need it the most.
LOCKING the center diff, thus turning off VSC (a light on your dash will indicate "VSC OFF") will allow you to go as any other 4x4 vehicle without electronic traction devices engaging.

 

[bulldog-yota]

Another KEY FACTOR is the use of Center Diff Lock (button located to the left of the steering wheel on the lower dash. The button has a diagram of the 4 wheels and X in the center).
Without the center differential locked, your VSC (vehicle skid control)remains on. In this case, it will cut power to your wheels just when you may need it the most.
LOCKING the center diff, thus turning off VSC (a light on your dash will indicate "VSC OFF") will allow you to go as any other 4x4 vehicle without electronic traction devices engaging.

That is the key with the 100, 4R, GX adn Seq as they all have a center diff lock button. I got stuck bad once in the dunes because I didn't lock the center diff. On the FJC the transfer case gear lever has options on where the center diff will be locked, pending AT or MT.

ANyhow lets organize a run next year at SnT to the big dune by the factory. It is probably the hardest dune to climb if the sand is soft. Tehn folsk can try different options adn see what works best for them.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

All 120 platform suv's use Toyota's ATRAC II+
It is improved over the Land Cruiser 100 ATRAC II and a big leap forward from 3rd Gen 4Runner ATRAC I. It uses 2 sensors per wheel (not 1) to more accurately and quickly react to situations.

Here is an excerpt from Overlander.com's Prado 120 review:
"The most impressive of these systems is the second generation A-TRC traction control. Second gen’ A-TRC was introduced on the latest 100 Series but Prado Chief Engineer Kunihiro Hoshi says that the system in the Prado 120 is better still. It does work extremely well. On a steep, rutted climb on the test loop, the Prado Grande crawled up with ease despite the fact that we deliberately took a hard line and lifted wheels in the air. More senior members of the 4WD press were heard to mutter “A 40 Series wouldn’t have got up there”, as their old-school mates nodded in agreement."
http://www.overlander.com.au/pg/veh...ests.php?id=216

Another KEY FACTOR is the use of Center Diff Lock (button located to the left of the steering wheel on the lower dash. The button has a diagram of the 4 wheels and X in the center).
Without the center differential locked, your VSC (vehicle skid control)remains on. In this case, it will cut power to your wheels just when you may need it the most.
LOCKING the center diff, thus turning off VSC (a light on your dash will indicate "VSC OFF") will allow you to go as any other 4x4 vehicle without electronic traction devices engaging.

Overland talk.
120 designer talk

Show me on a Toyota website where they explain the various TRAC and II+ and which vehicle has which. IF there was such a thing Toyota would market the crap out of it.

I don't care what a Overland dude or a designer dude says. Show MUD what TOYOTA says.

 

[FirstToy]

why are you still posting in this thread? To answer your question go to my posts in this thread and read them. Go look for yourself- in real life, not webwheeling- to compare the differences. I know, reality is scary sometimes but so is the truth.

designer dude.. uh yeah. He is the Chief Engineer of the platform. There is a difference between a designer and engineer. that may shock you but it's also true

 

[e9999]

and we ensure that we all stay civil and on the ball.....

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

......And he still wonders why he gets "gang jumped" in threads ....

OK...so it doesn't make sense to you that IF Toyota now installs an improved TRAC system called Active TRAC II+ on some vehicles that they don't even mention it and how it compares to rigs that still have the old?

All the 24/7 advertising and booklets on the FJ Cruiser and to no mention of an improved system? They still call it Active TRAC in all advertising and they not even list a "AT II+" on any global website, anywhere.

Come on!

They made a change to the TCS on my Rx8 when they did the engine recall check. They flashed new software and now in 1st gear full throttle the TCS sometimes kicks in (or I can still disable it).

3 months ago Consumer Reports reported on a 2006 BMW 330-series that before new TCS software was flashed the car spun it's rear end out easily and/or power was cut to much. Handling was awkward. The new flash corrected everything.

So sure...the FJ Cruiser programming is improved and tighter. Let's not confuse that with a "whole new system".

 

[1loudLX]

Hey, for what its worth guys, I pulled out of a gas station this morning turning right pretty sharply. When my back right wheel came down off the driveway onto the street it spun and i noticed, even tho my foot was floored, it wasnt picking up! I Looked down and saw ACTIVE TRAC flashing on my dash. I was like DAMN I NEED TO GO POST! but by then i had already driven past my house and forgot about it till just now. I didnt get any beeps but ACTIVE TRAC did cut throttle due to that right wheel spinning.

That is all...i dont know how this relates but i thought it was needed this morning...now i dont know.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Hey, for what its worth guys, I pulled out of a gas station this morning turning right pretty sharply. When my back right wheel came down off the driveway onto the street it spun and i noticed, even tho my foot was floored, it wasnt picking up! I Looked down and saw ACTIVE TRAC flashing on my dash. I was like DAMN I NEED TO GO POST! but by then i had already driven past my house and forgot about it till just now. I didnt get any beeps but ACTIVE TRAC did cut throttle due to that right wheel spinning.

That is all...i dont know how this relates but i thought it was needed this morning...now i dont know.

WOW! 110K and I've never had that happen. Great and interesting info!

 

[wngrog]

As I said earlier in the thread, I have driven my 2001 100 series and a 2006 FJ Cruiser and the TRAC in the FJ Cruiser is far and away better than the 2001 TRAC.

I don't know about TRAC+ or not, all I can say is that is is improved.

I cannot understand why Schotts would argue this. Toyota is always improving thier stuff. Just because folks have improved ABS over the years, it does not mean they have to rename it in their marketing pieces

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

As I said earlier in the thread, I have driven my 2001 100 series and a 2006 FJ Cruiser and the TRAC in the FJ Cruiser is far and away better than the 2001 TRAC.

I don't know about TRAC+ or not, all I can say is that is is improved.

I cannot understand why Schotts would argue this. Toyota is always improving thier stuff. Just because folks have improved ABS over the years, it does not mean they have to rename it in their marketing pieces

Never argued that the TRAC "programming" on the FJ Cruiser is isn't "tighter". Apparently it is. What's not different is the system. They're both Active TRAC.

There are some on this forum who "hear what they want to hear" and they mis-quote my posts just like you did above.

Yesterday my 100 ran a trail that made Golden Spike look "moderate" in difficulty. In one spot where we feared CV breakage I ran the obstacle rear-locked and TRAC-front. We watched the driver's front wheel cylcle through TRAC every QUARTER-TURN revolution. That's pretty tight to me though I hear the FJ is even tighter.

 

[wngrog]

Never argued that the TRAC "programming" on the FJ Cruiser is isn't "tighter". Apparently it is. What's not different is the system. They're both Active TRAC.

There are some on this forum who "hear what they want to hear" and they mis-quote my posts just like you did above.

Yesterday my 100 ran a trail that made Golden Spike look "moderate" in difficulty. In one spot where we feared CV breakage I ran the obstacle rear-locked and TRAC-front. We watched the driver's front wheel cylcle through TRAC every QUARTER-TURN revolution. That's pretty tight to me though I hear the FJ is even tighter.

Golden Spike is Moderate in difficulty.

 

[spressomon]

Golden Spike is Moderate in difficulty.

Careful there...we're "tip-toeing through the tulips" now...

 

[bulldog-yota]

The big difference is that Toyota used new sensors in the axles to measure wheel speed, the new sensors also allowed to sense direction. This in turned allowed for better calibration. Link to file describing the new sensors. So it is not just a matter of claibrating the system, as the input the ECU recieves is very important. Not sure if the later LC100s (2003+) have an upgraded system, I don't think so as they still don't offer DAC or HAC on the 100s. But bet on it that in the next LC it will be there.
http://www.ezdries.net/Vidpics/ATRAC/4Runner sensor.pdf

Also here is a description of the ATRAC system on the 100 when it was introduced. Keep in mind that they never mention that locking the center diff turns off the throttle cut on the TRAC system.
http://www.ezdries.net/Vidpics/ATRAC/LC100 new features.pdf

Back to the original topic. lcoking in 4H will give you the most momentum to climb dunes in the sand. The less ATRAC has to work the better you will do in the dunes. This is especially true for the 100s with the 5 spd autos. Teh 4spd auto might be a bit slow shifting, which will warrant a different strategy.

So I still suggest that we do some runs next year at SnT to see what works best on which truck.

 

[dclee]

The big difference is that Toyota used new sensors in the axles to measure wheel speed, the new sensors also allowed to sense direction. This in turned allowed for better calibration. Link to file describing the new sensors. So it is not just a matter of claibrating the system, as the input the ECU recieves is very important. Not sure if the later LC100s (2003+) have an upgraded system, I don't think so as they still don't offer DAC or HAC on the 100s. But bet on it that in the next LC it will be there.
http://www.ezdries.net/Vidpics/ATRAC/4Runner sensor.pdf

Also here is a description of the ATRAC system on the 100 when it was introduced. Keep in mind that they never mention that locking the center diff turns off the throttle cut on the TRAC system.
http://www.ezdries.net/Vidpics/ATRAC/LC100 new features.pdf

Back to the original topic. lcoking in 4H will give you the most momentum to climb dunes in the sand. The less ATRAC has to work the better you will do in the dunes. This is especially true for the 100s with the 5 spd autos. Teh 4spd auto might be a bit slow shifting, which will warrant a different strategy.

So I still suggest that we do some runs next year at SnT to see what works best on which truck.

Well, I'd say that constitutes a "new" and upgraded system in my book. But then again, coming from the IT field, even an "upgrade" in software or firmware constitutes an entirely new system to us, so even if John was initially correct (which, apparently, he was not), it's still a new system to many of us, it's all in the semantics.

Put a Windows OS on an Intel hardware platform, then put a Linux OS on the same hardware platform, and that ain't in no way, shape, or form the "same" system anymore...

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

The big difference is that Toyota used new sensors in the axles to measure wheel speed, the new sensors also allowed to sense direction. This in turned allowed for better calibration. Link to file describing the new sensors. So it is not just a matter of claibrating the system, as the input the ECU recieves is very important. Not sure if the later LC100s (2003+) have an upgraded system, I don't think so as they still don't offer DAC or HAC on the 100s. But bet on it that in the next LC it will be there.
http://www.ezdries.net/Vidpics/ATRAC/4Runner sensor.pdf

Also here is a description of the ATRAC system on the 100 when it was introduced. Keep in mind that they never mention that locking the center diff turns off the throttle cut on the TRAC system.
http://www.ezdries.net/Vidpics/ATRAC/LC100 new features.pdf

Back to the original topic. lcoking in 4H will give you the most momentum to climb dunes in the sand. The less ATRAC has to work the better you will do in the dunes. This is especially true for the 100s with the 5 spd autos. Teh 4spd auto might be a bit slow shifting, which will warrant a different strategy.

So I still suggest that we do some runs next year at SnT to see what works best on which truck.

Awesome! That 2000 document is fantastic! It explains everything and in such detail. Where's this gem been all this time. This sure clears things up!

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Golden Spike is Moderate in difficulty.

OK...since you said it first...I agree. I just didn't want so sound like I was exaggerating.