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C

cary

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OMG, people think oil is complicated, coolant is just baffling. I have reviewed the posts on here as well as the BITOG coolant board and all I have come away as is more confused. Here is the situation, 1996 80, getting the 1993-1994 radiator. Here are the possible choices:

1) Toyota Red
2) Traditional Green
3) Dexcool
4) G-05

It seems that the Dexcool is questionable even though Zerex recommends it as a replacement so I struck that off. G-05 looks interesting but I can't figure out if it is good to try. Toyota Red seems to be a no brainer, until your throw in that Copper Brass Radiator. Green is old and questionable in my book given the high level of silicates and phosphate.

I'm leaning toward staying with Toyota Red and doing a drain and fill once a year. Your thoughts?
 
Cary - Just curious why the concern with the brass radiator with Toyota Red. I am assuming this is the OEM 93-94 radiator that was filled in the 93-95 land cruisers with Toyota Red. I installed one of these OEM radiators in my truck and am running the red. Is there an issue I didn't know to stress about:eek:
 
Romer said:
Cary - Just curious why the concern with the brass radiator with Toyota Red. I am assuming this is the OEM 93-94 radiator that was filled in the 93-95 land cruisers with Toyota Red. I installed one of these OEM radiators in my truck and am running the red. Is there an issue I didn't know to stress about:eek:
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I don't believe it is clear that the Toyota red was used in 93-95, my understanding is that it wasn't used until 1996 and before that was old fashioned green. Does anyone know for sure when Toyota went to the red in these trucks? If Toyota was using the red from the factory with the earlier radiator style, then it becomes a no brainer to stick with it.
 
Cary- Robbie, among others, uses green in his brass radiator. Some people I've talked to, including the local TLC4x4, believe that Toyota Red accelerates the HG problem. I've switched to green with no problems, but I did a thorough flush. I posted a recent thread asking what type of green to use. Consensus on earlier threads is to stay away from GL-05/Dexcool and stick with "Traditional Green".
 
This is a good thread. Lots of differing opinions. CDAN uses Toyota Red in his brass radiator. You would probably be good useing Red or the correct green. I went with Red because thats what Toyota recommended and the debate didn't provide a clear winner.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=45372
 
JerryLX450 said:
So all you guys saying that its not good to use the Toyota red with OEM '93-'94 brass radiator???
Click to expand...

No one is saying that. I use it, Cdan uses it and a others use it.
 
JerryLX450 said:
So all you guys saying ...
Click to expand...

Jerry,
It is unlikely you will find any topic where everyone on this forum is in agreement. Coolant choice is for certain a topic that we cannot agree on.

IMHO, the very best advice is to use a premium (non-Dexcool) coolant and do an annual flush & fill using distilled water. There are some that will tell you that tap water is fine and chasing down distilled water is overkill. It's $1/gallon at the local grocery store so cost and availability is not an issue for me.

My choice for a premium coolant is Toyota Red but I believe that is less important than the frequent changes. I would also recommend that your coolant choice (i.e. chemical composition) be something the manufacturer selected for their engines (e.g. no silicates in the 1FZ-FE)

-B-
 
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I'm the original owner of a 95 LC. In looking through my receipts, the first charge for coolings system maintenance was in October 1998 @ 44K miles. The charge for coolant was $13.78 per gallon. This was done at the dealer and one may have been preformed sooner - I can't find the receipt.

I'm inclined to think it was red because I remember the dealer warning me about mixing colors and there was never a complete flush. Since then, my drain/fill intervals along with thermostat changes have been a lot more frequent.

At 116K, last year, I changed the fan clutch, belts, hoses, PHH, fluids and thermostat. 2 Weeks ago at 125K, I replaced the radiator with the 93-94 3 row and all of the fluid with Toyota red.

About one month prior to that, I had a Blackstone analysis which showed the oil to be free of coolant.

At the time, I had oil checked for 2 cars and my other vehicle had oil in the coolant. Ironically, that car has a Forum audience as perplexed by HG and coolant issues as this board, always trying to reach a conclusion on what to use.

My personal opinion is that if you avoid fluids with known problems for these cars, one brand, used and changed consisstently, properly mixed etc. will make differences imperceptable.

However, the Toyota fluid would be the angst reducer of choice.
 
Making it worse for those who'd rather not run Toyota red...

Wasn't there a thread a few days ago about how it's hard to even find "old fashioned" green anymore? For example, if you look for regular old Prestone now, IIRC all they have is some new "extended life, mix with any color coolant" which someone stated was actually a Dexcool clone?

Oi.

Curtis

Edit: Here's the thread:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=97192

*IF* a person wants to stay green, is there any consensus on an ok brand? Peak maybe??
 
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I also have been chasing my tail on this one for the past 2 weeks or so, nothing truly conclusive but I will post up what I have found on the web, many supposed authorities do not agree, making it difficult to say anything with certainty.

The consensus on this forum was what -B- posted above, Toyota red or a good American green. Mixed 50/50 with distilled water and changed regularly, just about everybody could agree with this including me.

But then there is this aptly titled article

COOLANT CONFUSION by Paul Weissler August 2004 Motor magazine

Witch I had read several years ago but not caught the following:


Replacement Parts
Original equipment coolants are validated for factory replacement parts. One of the issues that may arise is the use of an aftermarket replacement radiator or heater core made of copper-brass with lead solder. We have in previous articles pointed out that today's coolant inhibitor packages contain a small amount of copper-brass protection, but may provide little protection if a radiator is made with high-lead solder. Results of industry standard tests of the new Toyota extended-life coolant now show a substantial weight loss (corrosion), both in a 50-50 mix and in a 33% coolant mixture (solder corrosion is much greater in this more diluted solution).

If you have to change a radiator or heater core, use aluminum. Or, if it's an older car and the owner wants the lowest-cost radiator, you might procure a soldered-together copper-brass unit. Conventional American coolant should provide better protection against solder corrosion, which can result in radiator tube restrictions and leaks. But no coolant provides perfect protection.
Click to expand...


Witch was talked about in this thread

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=96573

What is still unresolved from that thread is:

Witch Toyota coolant is Paul Weissler talking about? The annoyingly imprecise choice of words “the new Toyota extended-life coolant” are bothersome, There is a Toyota Long Life (the Red we use) and a Toyota Super Long Life coolant (newer and Pink, used in newer vehicles) there is no Toyota coolant branded “extended life”,

when did LLC coem out? SLLC? witch woudl have been considered new in 2004?


Some seam to think the SLLC is just LLC pre diluted with distilled water, but the question arises then why does it have a much longer rating? Could they have dropped the brass and solder protection in the SLLC in favor of longer term aluminum protection? No new Toyotas have brass/solder/copper radiators

In past posts by Dan the SLLC is not to be used in older vehicles like the 80 series,

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=62397


Or are both LLC and SLLC both no good for a soldered radiator? It is not clear,

Another question unresolved from that thread: is the 3-row brass soldered or brazed? Is there any solder in contact with the coolant?

At the end of the article there is this

Toyota Red. A conventional Japanese coolant with phosphates but,
again, no silicates. Due to a similarity in color, it’s often mistaken for Dex-
Cool, particularly in the Pontiac Vibe, a Toyota-engineered product.
Toyota Pink and Honda Deep Green Extended Life. These new extended-
life Japanese coolants use phosphates for fast protection (no silicates)
and a single organic acid (sebacate) and other inhibitors.
Click to expand...

Witch still makes no sense

The back of the bottle Toyota Red Long Life Coolant states the ingredients:
Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1)
Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6)
Water
And here is where it gets interesting
Organic Acid Salt (532-32-1) witch is Sodium Benzoate
Hydrated Inorganic Salt (1310-58-3) Potassium Hydroxide, as a Ph buffer?


None of those are sebacate nor phosphate WTF? are they not listing those ingredients?

Another confuser Sebacate is supposed to be a good protector of solder according to catipilar., but if the pink has it then why would it not be good for solder?

Reading
http://www.team.net/sol/tech/coolant.html
http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/081999_11.html
http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Pdf/082004_04.pdf
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/sub_care_sat/1272436.html

I got some other stuff about prestone and alike but it is getting late.
 
I'm almost thinking I should have just bought the aluminum radiator.

Cary
 
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Holy cow! I wanted to read this thread because cooling is a big deal for me, but I was tense by the time I finished it.

I feel Toyota Red is a bulletproof choice, albeit expensive. Atop the "don't consider it" list would be DexCool and its variants due to reports I've read that show it attacking various bushings and some plastics in engines made by the co-developers of it - our friends at GM. Who knows what's in our engines that it might attack, and beyond that if they so screwed up its development that it's inappropriate for their own engines, what else did they screw up about its formula?

As for when did Toyota Red appear, I'm fairly sure I bought some of it way back in '94 out of Toyota's own US HQ parts department. Cdan might know more definitively.

As for the solder controversy, it's worth pointing out that I have NEVER heard of anyone on this list having a leaking radiator other than the top or bottom tank seam. That seam is merely the rubber O ring aging and getting compressed by mechanics kneeling on it. So, with the literally tens of millions of miles represented by members here and all the random coolant types and stages of previous owner neglect we have no examples of solder being eaten away. I'd say by proxy that the brass/copper radiator is not susceptible to solder issues either because it's brazed (more likely) or the solder is of a type chosen for the coolant environment.

To add to the general "what am I doing in this thread" feeling readers must by now be experiencing, my local import shop assures me the blue and purple stuff they just got in exceeds BMW/Mercedes standards and it is the finest in the world. Checking out the $29/gallon stuff made my back straighten with pride that it was the best. Pondering installing it made me feel I could be pampering my Bessie extant. But in the end uncertainties about all the variables made me put the bottles back on the ground and pick up the snazzy German hose clamps I'd come for - much to the chagrin of the disappointed shop keeper. I love that shop. You can still get new VW Beetle parts from the 50s, Lexsol products, Euro tire chains, Sisal and Cocoa floor mats, and Bosch parts up the wazoo. Not a neon light or chrome exhaust tip in sight - just businesslike parts.

DougM
 
IdahoDoug said:
As for the solder controversy, it's worth pointing out that I have NEVER heard of anyone on this list having a leaking radiator other than the top or bottom tank seam. That seam is merely the rubber O ring aging and getting compressed by mechanics kneeling on it. So, with the literally tens of millions of miles represented by members here and all the random coolant types and stages of previous owner neglect we have no examples of solder being eaten away. I'd say by proxy that the brass/copper radiator is not susceptible to solder issues either because it's brazed (more likely) or the solder is of a type chosen for the coolant environment.
Click to expand...


That is a good point, I have not read any reports of solder corrosion either.

so anybody want to take a look at their brass radiator as see if there is any solder between the tubes and top plate? You can draw off the coolant with a turkey baister or coolant tester and put it in the overflow to expose the tubes.



cary said:
Just to throw a wrench in this all, has anyone else look at the Zerex recommended chart? They recommend G-05 for pre 1996 Toyotas and Dexcool for post 1996!!!

Here is some more info (confusion from BITOG)

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=000556#000008
Click to expand...

Dexcool is no good, there are some that think Toyota Red is bad for gaskets, I wonder if this is overflow from similarly colored but completely different dexcool? 2EHA in Dexcool is known to damage gaskets, there is nothing like that in Toyota Red.

The inhibitor 2-EHA poses another issue: It's a plasticizer (softens plastic), so it has been blamed for coolant passage gasket leakage. Softening (and the resulting distortion) was reported by Ford, which encountered gasket leakage problems when it tested a DexCool-type formula on its V8 engines. Ford also saw similar issues with other gasket materials. That killed the OAT coolant idea for Ford, which had used a DexCool-like coolant in the '99 Cougar V6.

Could that inhibitor be responsible for the intake manifold coolant gasket leakage on GM 60° V6 engines? Or is there some other service issue involved? (After all, GM isn't the only one with coolant gasket leakage problems.) The experts are still working on it.
Click to expand...


G-05 is better than Dexcool but is a low silicate no phosphate, G-05 has European roots, they have a fear of phosphate due to problems with hard water, personally I think this silly as you can just use distilled water and make use of this useful inhibitor, if you are going to use a silicate coolant might was well just use American green and get protection from silicate and phosphate. .


cary said:
I don't know how accurate the information, but people on BITOG are saying that toyota has been using the red coolant since the 80's and even earlier. If that is the case, it seems a no brainer to use it even with the brass copper radiators.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=000030#000005
Click to expand...

If that is the case then that solves it, the solder problem must be with the new Toyota pink, nothing from the late seventies would be considered “new” in 2004.
 
Update. I went to my local dealer that has a really knowledge parts lady to find out about the coolant. She has been there for at least 15 years. (no I wasn't cheating on Dan, something about him not being able to ship coolant). I asked her how long Toyota has been using the Red coolant. Her answer was forever. I asked, before 1994, she said absolutely. I told her my concern about it with the brass radiator, and for what it is worth, she said that she has been told that the red is fine for brass and many of the cars that had brass radiators used it from the factor, but she has been specifically told the pink is not to be used in the early cars.

For me that was enough, I bought some red and will be using it.
 
cary said:
but she has been specifically told the pink is not to be used in the early cars.

For me that was enough, I bought some red and will be using it.
Click to expand...


that is the same thing Dan said so I guess that solves it, pink is bad for brass radiators, red is OK.
 
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