Head gasket replacement problems (1 Viewer)

I'm in the UK. My truck is a 1995 FZJ auto.

I've just had the head gasket replaced by a local mechanic.

The shop just phoned me to say that following the rebuild as soon as the engine is started the coolant is pressurised out of the rad filler! They're saying that the block must be cracked!?? I did not have this problem before I had the head gasket replaced and wondered if anyone on here has experienced similar problems.

The cylinder head has been crack tested and skimmed.

The entire sequence of events is this:

1. Prior to the head gasket going there was absolutely no indication to me of anything untoward. Certainly no frothy coolant, no exhaust steam, etc.
The day before I discovered the problem I noticed a “hot” smell from the engine bay, like spilt coolant but I was in a hurry and didn’t give it any more thought.

2. I went to get in the truck the next morning and noticed a small puddle under the engine. I investigated and found evidence of a water leak from the block – head joint between cylinders 5 and 6.

3. There was no evidence of any oil in the coolant or vice versa.

4. There did not appear to be any sort of “pressurised leak” by which I mean that when I ran the engine to check the actual leakage there was simply a steady drip, drip down the side of the block; it certainly didn’t look to be pouring out under any sort of pressure and neither was the coolant frothing.

5. When I left the truck standing the coolant continued to slowly drip from the leaky area to the extent that a week or so later I had to put about two litres in to bring it back to cover the radiator core.

I challenged the mechanic to explain why I had none of these pressurisation issues before the gasket was replaced; he said that the engine released the pressure by blowing the head gasket! I would have thought that the rad cap, or a hose would have given way long before there was enough pressure to blow the head gasket??

So has anyone experienced anything similar? Anyone have any ideas? Could a bad rebuild cause this, say the gasket on upside down or something like that?

Pete

no expert here, but seems unlikely that a crack would have opened up just upon head removal. More likely that the gasket is defective or incorrectly installed?

worcester4x4 said:

The shop just phoned me to say that following the rebuild as soon as the engine is started the coolant is pressurised out of the rad filler! They're saying that the block must be cracked!??

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I'm not sure I follow this diagnosis. Why would a cracked block cause coolant to flow out of the radiator cap as soon as the engine is started?

worcester4x4 said:

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I challenged the mechanic to explain why I had none of these pressurisation issues before the gasket was replaced; he said that the engine released the pressure by blowing the head gasket! I would have thought that the rad cap, or a hose would have given way long before there was enough pressure to blow the head gasket??
...

Pete

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His statement is complete BS!

My guess is that they messed up the gasket and/or install. The head or block could have cracked while they had it, but the chance of that happening is incredibly small.

Your in a tough spot, I would want a second opinion, but to remove it from the shop you will probably need to pay them. The "right" thing for them to do is to pull the head and see what the problem is, if it was a mistake on their part, repair it. If it does require additional work, keep you informed openly and honestly to the problem. With the statement above I would be highly suspect of their knowledge and/or honesty?

Sorry this happened. Take it to Vern in Mesa! LOL


(weak attempt @ humor)

I think we need a better explanation of what's going on. "coolant is pressurized out of the rad filler" is the sum total of your description of the problem. I have no idea if this means the instant the engine fires a geyser of water over 60 feet high shoots out, or if it merely means when the mechanic looks in the radiator there is normal fluid movement.

If your mechanic is saying engine combustion pressure is being introduced into the cooling system upon startup, causing combustion fumes to come out the radiator cap then you've got a huge problem. This is a perfect example of why it's better to do work yourself. I'm not harping on anybody's lack of time or experience, but Worcestor is now basically at the mercy of his mechanic. The mechanic's assistant could have screwed up the thermostat install, started the engine with near zero coolant in it, got the engine hot, dumped coolant in in a panic and cracked the head. He could have lied that the head went to a shop for pressure testing against cracks. He could have cracked the head by not having the correct head bolt tightening sequence, or literally forgotten to tighten the head on. He could have bent the new head gasket while fitting the head on. Etc etc. Or, it could legitimately be a cracked block - who knows now?

I'll be interested in more details, but at the end of the day you'll have to accept whatever he tells you and whatever he's going to then charge you. I'm really sorry that you're in this situation - truly a bum deal for all concerned.

Also, I agree with you that the rad cap would have released LONG before the pressure got to that required to blow a new head gasket and if that's truly the guy's expression he either thinks you're a moron or he himself is so completely clueless about engines it explains a lot about this job. The radiator cap is set for something like 15lbs and it's spring will allow pressure release. A head gasket would take what - thousands of PSI (full combustion pressure). No way.

DougM

I would immediately think they messed up the install and are trying to blame it on a cracked block so they don't have to eat the cost of fixing it. Have them tear it down and look for in improperly installed gasket.

Eric,

The bummer with that is again - you're at their mercy. They say "Gee, looky this the gasket cracked. I guess it was defective. You have to pay for a new gasket and the reinstall." I guess that's what is frustrating. At the end of the day, you either have a conscienctious and honest mechanic, or you do not. BTW, I completely agree with you that this seems like a screw up by the mechanic. At its essence, a HG job is unbolting a bunch of things, removing a sheet of paper and metal, laying down a new sheet of paper and metal and bolting it back together. There's no complicated machining, no high tech diagnostic tools needed, no delicate work on electronics, no precise setting of tolerances, etc. So since it's not rocket science, I feel they did something wrong. Wait for the part where they also say "Gee, your radiator is leaking now..." from putting their knees all over it during the work and cracking the plastic tank.

DougM

Thanks for all the comments so far. You more or less back up what I and others here are thinking.

For the benefit of IdahoDoug all I know right now is what the shop told me over the phone which is (more or less):

"you'd better come down and have a look at your truck.... we've put it all back together but as soon as we start it the coolant is ejected from the open rad cap. We daren't put the cap back on because the pressure is so high that it'll blow a hose!"

I said: "How come? It wasn't doing that before"

Answer from the shop: "No because your head gasket was blown and the pressure was escaping that way. It must have been what blew the head gasket in the first place"

And that's all I know right now. I couldn't get stright down there to see it as I simply had no time. I'm going tomorrow morning.

I tend to agree that they're talking BS but as others have said, how to prove it?

And why didn't I do this job myself? I wish I had now but I simply don't have the time to do it or the space to park up a dead truck while I take several weekends to fix it. Most jobs I do do myself, in fact this is the first time it's been to a shop for repairs since I've owned it.

Pete

I should have said, but didn't that the head has been crack tested and skimmed so I'm told. At least I'm paying for that. So if they strip it and find a cracked head then that's their problem. Likewise if it's the wrong or faulty gasket, also their problem in my opinion anyway.

I'll see what happens tomorrow.

Pete

the shop buggered up something. Could be something as easy as a coolant line where the flow is restricted or possibly they don't know how to torque down the head. Do they know this engine? Did they have the FSM if they didn't?

These aren't some Rover engine you know.

make sure they understand you are a very educated customer and won't take crap. Ask them what bolt tightening sequence they used, as said above, and what torques etc in a pleasant but firm manner. But give them also a nice way to save face and admit a mistake if there is, as in "why don't you have another look and see if it could possibly be something else...", "I'm sure you want to do the best job possible and will go the extra length" etc. Don't force them into a corner or they'll dig their heels and you will then be only left with legal action as a recourse...

I'd like to have them SPECIFICALLY tell you what's going on in their opinion. The comments in post 9 is pure BS. It says they think when you brought the truck in the gasket was so bad it was letting highly pressurized combustion pressure past the gasket into the coolant which blew the gasket. Um, no. When the gasket lets gas past it is considered blown, the passing of gas does not CAUSE a blown gasket. More aggregious is their contention that it was doing this when brought in. Um, no. I think you would have noticed coolant spewing past the 15 PSI cap in such quantities it would have been billowing steam clouds the size of a house. You said it was merely seeping out the head/block junction.

Then there is the contention that it was doing this before they worked on it, so that it is doing it again is somehow not their fault. Um, no. In the real world, when you bring something in that is broken you get paid to fix it, not say "Looky, it's still doing it, so since you brought it in broken then the fact that it's still broken after I worked on it means it's not my fault."

Look. You brought it in for an EXTERNAL head gasket leak. That's when the coolant migrates outward away from the cylinders to the edge of the block. They gave it back to you with an INTERNAL head gasket leak. That's when the sealing rings around the cylinders which are part of the gasket are allowing combustion pressure to escape and go into the adjacent coolant passages - which pressurizes the cooling system and blows coolant out the radiator.

If they claim it's because the head or block surfaces are warped, then something's rotten in Denmark because part of this job is to use a mechanic's straightedge to confirm the block and head mating surfaces are flat. I mean, you simply don't put it back together without knowing/checking this and it is absolutely positively 100% part of the job to check it. If they did, but upon teardown they 'discover' something's not flat then something went wrong on assembly that is THEIR fault. Several things can happen from improper torque, to improper torque sequence of the bolts, to starting the engine without enough coolant in it as mentioned, etc. So the train of events points quite clearly to them as this is a NEW problem. If you'd have brought it in with an internal leak it would have been painfully obvious to you.

DougM

IdahoDoug said:

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That's when the sealing rings around the cylinders which are part of the gasket are allowing combustion pressure to escape and go into the adjacent coolant passages - which pressurizes the cooling system and blows coolant out the radiator.

...

DougM

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The most often failure that causes this is, damage to the fire ring area of the gasket between a cylinder and cooling passage. The damage is easily caused by dropping something heavy, in just the wrong spot. Most of the time it's that big, heavy, bulky head, in trying to get in there one end gets dropped and a sharp edge hits the wrong spot, crushing the fire ring, guess what, a leaker!

One of the old techs that worked for me kept a bunch of ~3/8" thick hardwood strips in his box. First he placed the headgasket, put the strips front, center and rear over the gasket, placed and lined up the head, then picked up each end and removed the strips, worked great and never had a problem with his work.

I never went to that extreme, but care must be taken, headgaskets are relatively fragile until installed.

Kevin - my thoughts exactly. Most likely scenario as it's a heavy head and if you save time and leave the hood on it's a struggle to get it back in there without dropping it. Wonder who's gasket they used, also - a quality Toyota or an off brand?

DougM

Well I'm going down to the shop in an hour or two to "discuss" the matter. I'll let you know what they say.

Thanks again for the very helpful comments.

Pete

Story so far.

I’ve been to the shop and spoken to the guys there. I also saw the cruiser in action.

When I first looked at the coolant it was obviously frothy and felt oily to the touch. When the engine runs with the rad cap off the coolant “pulses” out of the rad filler neck – not like Old Faithful exactly, more like it wells out in pulses roughly in time with the engine beat.

They are insistent that I wouldn’t have noticed anything previously because the pressure would have vented via the broken head gasket – I still think this is b*****ks but not 100% certain – they say it must be the block.

They are adamant that the head, gasket and the work are OK (but then they would wouldn’t they) and what they’ve offered to do is this:

They’ll do a stripdown, initially at my cost and invite me in to see the head actually being removed so that I can inspect the head and the gasket. If at that point it’s their fault then they’ll replace it for free but if not then I pay and I’m still no better off.

So any suggestions of how to play this? What to look for?

Pete

What they say about using the FSM and following the specified torqueing sequence for the head bolts?

They were, well not exactly evasive but just said they followed the Toyota specifications.

Don't jump to too many conclusions here; as shops go this one does have a good reputation locally and a good friend of mine who has had lots of work done there knows the owner very well. Having said that they're all greater or lesser crooks in my opinion and I don't trust any of them. I just don't want to jump to conclusions, find out they were right after all and because I ranted at them I lose their goodwill for future work.

All I can do is see what I can see on Monday when they strip it.

So what should I look for and check?

Pete

worcester4x4 said:

Story so far.

I’ve been to the shop and spoken to the guys there. I also saw the cruiser in action.

When I first looked at the coolant it was obviously frothy and felt oily to the touch. When the engine runs with the rad cap off the coolant “pulses” out of the rad filler neck – not like Old Faithful exactly, more like it wells out in pulses roughly in time with the engine beat.

They are insistent that I wouldn’t have noticed anything previously because the pressure would have vented via the broken head gasket – I still think this is b*****ks but not 100% certain – they say it must be the block.

They are adamant that the head, gasket and the work are OK (but then they would wouldn’t they) and what they’ve offered to do is this:

They’ll do a stripdown, initially at my cost and invite me in to see the head actually being removed so that I can inspect the head and the gasket. If at that point it’s their fault then they’ll replace it for free but if not then I pay and I’m still no better off.

So any suggestions of how to play this? What to look for?

Pete

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Sounds fair if they screwed it up they pay.