zcruiser
Needs monitoring
Find a "friend" (even if you have to pay them) to come with you to the inspection. This "friend" needs to have experience with engine rebuilds and be able to discern during the teardown where the repairs went wrong.
Head gasket replacement problems
- Thread starter worcester4x4
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- Thread starter
- #22
That's a very good plan.
Unfortunately I don't know anyone local with any engine rebuild experience
Pete
Basically the head gasket. When they lift the head off you want to inspect the fire rings closely. These are the metal rings that go around the inside of the holes in the gasket for each cylinder. They should be flat and smooth with no dents or abrasion.
You also what to look at the tops of the head bolts. This is very important!!!! To install these correctly the sequence requires you to mark the tops of the heads with paint or similar. If they have no markings then the head wasn't torqued correctly.
- Thread starter
- #24
This is all really good and useful stuff!
landtank - why should the boltheads be marked exactly? Why should not marking them preclude correct sequencing? This could be a critical piece of information.
Can someone point me to a link that has the correct sequence and torque settings for the head bolts please?
Thanks again.
Pete
landtank - why should the boltheads be marked exactly? Why should not marking them preclude correct sequencing? This could be a critical piece of information.
Can someone point me to a link that has the correct sequence and torque settings for the head bolts please?
Thanks again.
Pete
The bolt heads should have a dash mark because the last thing you do in tightening them is turn them 90 degrees. If no mark, you're guessing or assuming the wrench turn of 90 degrees is good enough. It's not, because the wrench flexes and after you have hit 90 degrees it flexes back to reveal you only actually moved the bolt head 70 degrees (or whatever).
You should do two things when the head is lifted off. First, physically run your finger around the fire rings of each cylinder. These are thicker than the rest of the gasket and designed to contain combustion pressure. If you feel a dent, nick or other distortion then you have something. Then pick the gasket off (you're going to get dirty here, so don't show up in Saville Row) and lay it down on a bench so you can feel the opposite surface in the same way. Then, with a bright flashlight and your fingers feel the surface the fire ring sealed against on the block for irregular spots that would prevent the ring from sealing. Do the same on the head. Now you're done. If you found everything distortion free and flat, then it was not their fault.
I suggest you examine the pictures of gaskets posted here over the years so you understand that there are some normal distortions which I'm not talking about. For instance, the fire rings are not perfectly round as you'd expect.
Also, I'd want to know WHOSE gasket they used. And I'd have questions about the torque number they used on the head bolts and where they got the sequence.
Finally, there is one test that may reveal something. Tell them to do a pressure test on the cooling system before anything is dissasembled. Pressurizing it may cause coolant to go into the cylinder that's got the problem and be of huge value when the head comes off. One of the cylinders has a half inch of coolant in it? Bingo - that's where you focus your search.
Also, be clear that you want to be at the shop when the head bolts are loosened or you'll get hosed. You'll arrive to find the head on a workbench, the gasket wrinkled up in the trash (and therefore useless for placing blame) and a couple guys feverishly trying to grind an imperfection flat on the block behind cylinder #6 that they missed.
DougM
You should do two things when the head is lifted off. First, physically run your finger around the fire rings of each cylinder. These are thicker than the rest of the gasket and designed to contain combustion pressure. If you feel a dent, nick or other distortion then you have something. Then pick the gasket off (you're going to get dirty here, so don't show up in Saville Row) and lay it down on a bench so you can feel the opposite surface in the same way. Then, with a bright flashlight and your fingers feel the surface the fire ring sealed against on the block for irregular spots that would prevent the ring from sealing. Do the same on the head. Now you're done. If you found everything distortion free and flat, then it was not their fault.
I suggest you examine the pictures of gaskets posted here over the years so you understand that there are some normal distortions which I'm not talking about. For instance, the fire rings are not perfectly round as you'd expect.
Also, I'd want to know WHOSE gasket they used. And I'd have questions about the torque number they used on the head bolts and where they got the sequence.
Finally, there is one test that may reveal something. Tell them to do a pressure test on the cooling system before anything is dissasembled. Pressurizing it may cause coolant to go into the cylinder that's got the problem and be of huge value when the head comes off. One of the cylinders has a half inch of coolant in it? Bingo - that's where you focus your search.
Also, be clear that you want to be at the shop when the head bolts are loosened or you'll get hosed. You'll arrive to find the head on a workbench, the gasket wrinkled up in the trash (and therefore useless for placing blame) and a couple guys feverishly trying to grind an imperfection flat on the block behind cylinder #6 that they missed.
DougM
Actually it's 2 90* turns after the initial torque setting. You first torque the bolts to 29ftlbs, mark the heads in the forward position, rotate them 90* in sequence, rotate them again 90* in sequence with those forward facing marks now facing rearward.
These are torque to yield bolts and how they are installed.
These are torque to yield bolts and how they are installed.
I would ask the shop owner politely if he believes that perhaps his shop made an error on this job? Watch his response. Does he suggest any testing that would help rule out shop error. Does he suggest some testing that could be initiated-like perhaps a compression test and a leakdown test. perhaps pressurize the coolant as suggested.
The goal here is to get the truck fixed without spending money. Its sounds like Pete has a cool head. This may get nasty but there may still be hope in humanity.
The goal here is to get the truck fixed without spending money. Its sounds like Pete has a cool head. This may get nasty but there may still be hope in humanity.
another thought might be to inspect the spark plugs first to try and see which cylinder is compromised. That way you'll be better focussed on where to look.
- Thread starter
- #29
I did put it to the owner that perhaps they might have made a mistake and I put it to them in several ways. The owner never once looked me in the eye but then again neither did he seem to be evasive, no more evasive than mechanics usually are anyway.
He was unwavering in his belief that it can't be the head because it was tested and skimmed, it can't be the gasket because it's new and it can't be them because the guy that did it was "a good mechanic"!
He wouldn't give any credence at all to my argument that the block couldn't have been cracked before they got it because I had no symptoms except for the coolant weep from the gasket. My argument was that with the amount of pressure I saw evidenced today if that pressure was venting via the cracked gasket there would have been a jet of coolant and steam the size of Old Faithful coming from there. There wasn't, it was a steady drip-drip whether the engine was running or not. No evidence of combustion products in the coolant at all.
Thanks for the tips about the head tightening and the paint marks. That could be very useful information.
Pete
Just a suggestion...but maybe since this shop seems to be going to get to do the HG all over again have you considered ordering a copy of IdahoDoug's HG DVD?
Might prove to be very valuable to you
Might prove to be very valuable to you
I just had this job done. The mechanic removed the head & diagnosed the course of action necessary.
He said the bottom end was fine & that the head needed to go to the machine shop to be diagnosed. My head needed a full valve job, $660.00.
The above seems to pretty much mirror your experience, your mechanic made the diagnosis and performed his determined repairs.
If we assume your mechanic is even approaching satisfactory had there been a problem with your block, why did he put it back together? Shouldn't he have contacted you and said "Damn, there is a problem"?
You paid for the job to be done PROPERLY, he had a responsibility to diagnose all issues PRIOR to putting it back together. Isn't the reason you brought it to him to return it to usable condition?
This nonsense that he did nothing wrong irritates me at least he put a new gasket & head on a bad block at most he put the gasket in wrong or used the head even though it was returned improperly repaired by the machine shop.
I would have my lawyer write a letter explaining what I have written above and that failing the motor being torn down AT HIS EXPENSE and the issue diagnosed immediately I would pay (if the charlatan insisted) for the "work" thus far performed & then take the truck to the dealer and begin legal proceedings for the money extorted to get the truck back as well as the cost of having the dealer clean up the mess.
I am sorry you are dealing with this what a pita.
He said the bottom end was fine & that the head needed to go to the machine shop to be diagnosed. My head needed a full valve job, $660.00.
The above seems to pretty much mirror your experience, your mechanic made the diagnosis and performed his determined repairs.
If we assume your mechanic is even approaching satisfactory had there been a problem with your block, why did he put it back together? Shouldn't he have contacted you and said "Damn, there is a problem"?
You paid for the job to be done PROPERLY, he had a responsibility to diagnose all issues PRIOR to putting it back together. Isn't the reason you brought it to him to return it to usable condition?
This nonsense that he did nothing wrong irritates me at least he put a new gasket & head on a bad block at most he put the gasket in wrong or used the head even though it was returned improperly repaired by the machine shop.
I would have my lawyer write a letter explaining what I have written above and that failing the motor being torn down AT HIS EXPENSE and the issue diagnosed immediately I would pay (if the charlatan insisted) for the "work" thus far performed & then take the truck to the dealer and begin legal proceedings for the money extorted to get the truck back as well as the cost of having the dealer clean up the mess.
I am sorry you are dealing with this what a pita.
Not to self promote (horrors) but I think it's a good idea to watch even if someone else is doing it so you can understand the job from start to finish in the event something goes wrong either right away as here, or later. Dropping a $1500++ check for something you know nothing about is odd, ya know?
DougM
DougM
- Thread starter
- #34
How would I get hold of the DVD in a hurry?
Pete
Pete
- Thread starter
- #35
If I paypal'd the spondulas I don't suppose there's a download site I could rip this from is there?
Pete
Pete
- Thread starter
- #36
BTW, I wasn't ignoring you all, I was away for the weekend and I'm just catching up with everything now.
Thanks again for all the help, it is all a big help and a comfort! 
Pete
Thanks again for all the help, it is all a big help and a comfort!
Pete
One thing that puzzels me is that the mechanic is setting himself up to be at fault here unless he truely doesn't have a clue as to how he f'd this up. Lets say he has never done a HG job on a motor as quirly or demanding of attention to detail as this, and he assumes that the block is cracked. Well, he has to bust the engine down, clean it thouroughly and then perform an NDI dye penetrant test to reveal the offending crack. To volunteer to go to this length to proove he did nothing wrong, he either really has no idea that are a myriad of things that can done wrong on the re-assembly of this engine that are not present on most others; or he is working more angles than trigonometry book. Either the Dye pentrant test reveals a crack or there is crack to reveal. There is no faking this test that I am aware of. So you absolutly must be present to whitness the teardown and make the prior mentioned inspections. Then you must present to whitness the dye penetrant test, because if you find damage to the HG, odds are favorable that it will be small and not of tremendous signifigance in appearance (A tiny distortion of the fire ring or mating surfaces around the combustion chamber can have huge consequenses) and the mechanic is still going to insistthat he did nothing wrong. So the NDI is all that will settle it as to who right and who is wrong. In the end I feel very confident that no crack will be found in the block.
- Thread starter
- #38
I find it puzzling as well but then again I no longer know what to think! I'm beginning to see spinning cylinder heads in my sleep as a result of my continually thinking of different scenarios!
All I can say for sure is that I had NO symptoms prior to having the HG replaced EXCEPT a "weeping" coolant leak from the HG between cylinders 5 and 6 on the left hand side of the block (viewed from the front looking towards the back). I had no contaminated coolant, I had no frothy coolant, I had no huge water loss and it's certainly NEVER overheated. I love my cruiser and though the body is a little battle-scarred the mechanics have been treated with lavish love over the six years I've owned it.
If it had even shown the signs of the merest possibility of it overheating at any time it would have been instantly switched off and a flat-bed truck called for.
But there is still this nagging doubt in my mind that I have done something wrong; you know how it is?
I bloody well wish I'd done the job myself now, nothing is worth this pain! I want my cruiser back!!!!!
Pete
All I can say for sure is that I had NO symptoms prior to having the HG replaced EXCEPT a "weeping" coolant leak from the HG between cylinders 5 and 6 on the left hand side of the block (viewed from the front looking towards the back). I had no contaminated coolant, I had no frothy coolant, I had no huge water loss and it's certainly NEVER overheated. I love my cruiser and though the body is a little battle-scarred the mechanics have been treated with lavish love over the six years I've owned it.
If it had even shown the signs of the merest possibility of it overheating at any time it would have been instantly switched off and a flat-bed truck called for.
But there is still this nagging doubt in my mind that I have done something wrong; you know how it is?
I bloody well wish I'd done the job myself now, nothing is worth this pain! I want my cruiser back!!!!!
Pete
- Thread starter
- #39
I've arranged for a mechanical repair assessor to visit the shop with me to watch the stripdown and then compile a report.
In the meantime I've got them to run a compression test on the cruiser - pots 1 through 4 are 185psi, 5 is 195psi and 6 is 190psi. Does that give any further clues to anyone as to the state of the engine?
Pete
In the meantime I've got them to run a compression test on the cruiser - pots 1 through 4 are 185psi, 5 is 195psi and 6 is 190psi. Does that give any further clues to anyone as to the state of the engine?
Pete
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dang, this guy will have to wait the whole time they take it apart...?
that may get expensive no?
I do remember seeing several reports of compression numbers where all 6 were within 1 or 2 psi. Could this be a wider variation than usual?
