AltFuel WVO, vegetable oil as fuel: Injector Pump Longetivity (1 Viewer)

[phatwheels]

How do the inline Denso injector pumps on 3B and 2H engines hold up to usage with WVO (waste vegetable oil) as a fuel? Assuming the oil will be well filtered, a high quaility dual filtration system, with the WVO being heated to temp (no cold starts)?

Also can someone from Austrailia tell me how the dual fuel systems work that allow the burning of gasoline and diesel in the same engine?

 

[roscoFJ73]

Also can someone from Austrailia tell me how the dual fuel systems work that allow the burning of gasoline and diesel in the same engine?

Do you mean gas and diesel? We call gasoline petrol and our gas is liquid petrolem gas which is a blend of mainly butane and propane.

There has been much talk on LPG fumigation here if you use the search function

 

[roscoFJ73]

How do the inline Denso injector pumps on 3B and 2H engines hold up to usage with WVO (waste vegetable oil) as a fuel? Assuming the oil will be well filtered, a high quaility dual filtration system, with the WVO being heated to temp (no cold starts)?
?

No real experience but I think owners have tended to use older style diesels with in line pumps more often than rotary pump engines for running alternative types of diesel fuel.
Some of these have been running for quite a few years and the only problem I recall is clogged injectors from bad fuel.

 

[Diescipel]

My understanding is that there are questions about the acidity of certain kinds of VO that make them problematic for IPs etc. I was thinking about a dual tank build with a heated 2nd tank, but I just don't see the benefits being that great for the costs and hassle--running biodiesel gives you just about all the benefits and it's a much more tightly controlled fuel product. Yes, you do pay more for the processing, but I like to support my local BioD producer.

Here's a good thread: https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=88291&highlight=wvo

Cheers,
B

 

[fe sus]

2nd the biodiesel plug. if you're dead-set aginst buying it build a small batch refinery. it's not that hard to do... and as long as you set your standards high the fuel will be fine.

 

[brownbear]

All the reading I have done, the inline pumps are more damage tolerant, less prone to wear. The inline pumps use engine oil for lube, the rotary use fuel for lubrications.

So waste oil guys prefer the inline pumps. In the states there is some serious long term use people running wvo in their inline pumps with no problems.

From what I have read(read more than I care to remember) about WVO its the tempurature that is the most important. It needs to be controled quite good. To low and the viscosity is too high and can be hard on the IP. Too hot and it might not spray or inject properly. But I would rather be a little warmer than colder.

Ideal would be a temp gauge just prior to the IP, then you can be sure it is close. Some say 180 f is the number. But I don't know.

 

[moondog]

What do you do with the waste from making biodiesel? From what I understand one of the biproducts of biodiesel is an acid powerful enough to leach the mercury out of the ground. No fxxxing thanks! I know someone who wound up in the hospital for days with severe blood poisoning from making biodiesel - he still has problems from it, granted he probably was spilling the s*** all over himself and breathing in the fumes - but still. Biodiesel isn't the happy environmentally friendly product that people seem to believe that it is.

 

[brownbear]

Oh IMOP if you are making a DIY WVO project I think the 3b would be easier. As there is no return fuel. It has a loop at the IP. Where as the 2H returns fuel to the tank. So you need a fancy switching valve to prevent oil from going in the Dino tank.

 

[brownbear]

What do you do with the waste from making biodiesel? From what I understand one of the biproducts of biodiesel is an acid powerful enough to leach the mercury out of the ground. No fxxxing thanks! I know someone who wound up in the hospital for days with severe blood poisoning from making biodiesel - he still has problems from it, granted he probably was spilling the s*** all over himself and breathing in the fumes - but still. Biodiesel isn't the happy environmentally friendly product that people seem to believe that it is.

Not quite from what I have heard.... I cut and pasted this from a site.

"biodiesel is simply made by mixing a fat or oil with an alcohol and lye. Biodiesel is up to 92% of the final product with the rest being glycerin which is itself a useful product commonly used in cosmetics. The waste from this process is basically soapy water and is not environmentally harmful. The oil can be cooking oils, or oilseed crops such as soybeans, canola, cotton and mustard seed or even tallow or animal fat."

And then on another site I found this write up. This looks like a great read. I scanned thru, but plan on printed to read later...
http://www.alternatives.com/vpn/ind...er_op=view_page&PAGE_id=16&MMN_position=26:22

 

[phatwheels]

The 2H on the HJ-60 doesn't have a return line either. Both use a similar inline Denson injector. They are Canadian spec. Overall I have most of the conversion figured out. Already found a nice little temp sending unit to put pre-IP. I do think water and acidity are the biggest concerns. Not that it might be the greenest but what about adding some ATF to the veg oil if it was particularily acidic?

 

[fe sus]

what you have after biodiesel production are methyl alcohol, biodiesel, and glycerine. The alcohol can be re-used... no the easiest thing to clean, but it's do-able. Glycerine can be given away to people who use it in furnaces (garages that burn used motor oil can use it).
During the process use will need to handle and use lye (there is another more expensive option, KOH) which is nasty stuff...
If you failed chemistry, don't try it. If you passed you'll do fine.
It's waaaay easier than making crystal meth.....

 

[brownbear]

\
It's waaaay easier than making crystal meth.....

well there ya go. Any good cruiser head has a grow op and meth lab...... at least in BC

 

[Diescipel]

What do you do with the waste from making biodiesel? From what I understand one of the biproducts of biodiesel is an acid powerful enough to leach the mercury out of the ground. No fxxxing thanks! I know someone who wound up in the hospital for days with severe blood poisoning from making biodiesel - he still has problems from it, granted he probably was spilling the s*** all over himself and breathing in the fumes - but still. Biodiesel isn't the happy environmentally friendly product that people seem to believe that it is.

As others have said, the byproducts themselves are useful, but more importantly any problems with cleanup are mitigated when you have a large commercial producer monitored by local environmental agencies rather than dozens of back yard DIY producers who may not have all their equipment and techniques dialed in. This is another reason to buy the product retail and support an economic relationship that is also better for the environment IMO. But I confess I do envy those who brew their own and have the process down--the $$$ savings are great. I just don't have the facilities or time to complicate my life this way. Where I live bioD is readily available with even pay at the pump retail set up for the same price as petrol D. Others may not have this option.

My .02
B

 

[HZJ60 Guy]

I run B99 in my cars in the summer time. I suspect that considering its lubricity factor is so high that it would be good for your pump. Again, this is all considering proper filtration.

 

[phatwheels]

So what are the home brewers doing wrong to end up with blood posioning? I also know a home brewer with tons of left over waste that prompted me to head to 100% VO. He has it just sitting in a barn in drums, waiting for what? I completely agree that large scale, or even small scale proffesional BioD production with the capability to process the waste is great. What I don't like is all the home brewers with big vats with no lids, people stirring drums hovering over the fumes as it cooked on a propane camp stove, spilling waste on the grass. A group demonstrated making BioD at a music festival in this manner, kinda stuck as being a big toxic mess, but that was their way. Sounds like most people on here know what they are doing. Is the methyl alcohol the only harmful bi-product? Is it possible the homebrewers are accidentally creating a harmful acid capable of leaching mercury out of soil? By f*cking up thier methods of something? I have read about this before, but maybe it was just misinformation and now I cannot find anything about it.

 

[Diescipel]

PS I know around here there is a burgeoning soap making industry that is using up the glycerine byproducts. I personally would not want to do it unless I knew I could get the whole process to be safe and friendly to the environment--again, the commercial producers, as I understand it, HAVE to do this to be liscensed.

B

 

[83bj60]

My understanding is that there are questions about the acidity of certain kinds of VO that make them problematic for IPs etc. I was thinking about a dual tank build with a heated 2nd tank, but I just don't see the benefits being that great for the costs and hassle--running biodiesel gives you just about all the benefits and it's a much more tightly controlled fuel product. Yes, you do pay more for the processing, but I like to support my local BioD producer.

Here's a good thread: https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=88291&highlight=wvo

Cheers,
B

Great thread! The two things I'd like to know is this:

1) would biodiesel be safe for a 1991 HDJ81 or would it require major modifications to the fuel pump? (I can handle replacing hoses but not overhaul fuel pumps!)

2) is biodiesel safe or can biodiesel be made safe when the supply is used oil from resturants? If I invest in a biodiesel reactor, I want to make sure it can pay for itself.

On last thing: no one seems to mention all the methyl alcohol it requires... It's a major component that one has to get a supply of before he can even hope to make biodioesel! Where to get it at a decent price in quantity in Quebec?

TIA for your input. Great thread!

Chris

 

[brownbear]

Univar Canada

 

[83bj60]

Univar Canada

OK, where is the search button? Where do I find "Methyl Alcohol"? Why are all the letters jumbled down the page?

Sorry, but I have tioo little time to waste in the maze of Corporate Canada, have had my share of bureaucratic rigamarole lately.

Sorry for the rant.

Chris

 

[M John Galt]

Biodiesel is one way of using veg-oil for diesel fuel. It's not for Dummies because it uses flammable, toxic chemicals to convert the veg oil to biodiesel, and the toxic waste products should be disposed responsibly, not just dumped down the drain.

The other way is to use veg-oil directly. Up to 20% VO requires little or no modifications to engines with inline IPs [see below]. Greater concentrations of VO require more complicated systems to heat the oil fuel, especially at cold start up, to prevent cylinder and piston deposits and engine damage.

Using Unmodified Vegetable Oils as a Diesel Fuel Extender -
A Literature Review
www.uidaho.edu/bae/biodiesel/raw vegetable oils_literature review.doc

By
Sam Jones and Charles L. Peterson
Graduate Research Assistant and Professor and Interim Head
Department of Biological and Agricultural Engineering
University of Idaho, Moscow, Idaho 83843


Abstract
This paper is a review of literature concerning using vegetable oils as a replacement for diesel fuel. The term vegetable oils as used in this paper refers to vegetable oils which have not been modified by transesterification or similar processes to form what is called biodiesel. The oils studied include virgin and used oils of various types including soy, rapeseed, canola, sunflower, cottonseed and similar oils. In general, raw vegetable oils can be used successfully in short term performance tests in nearly any percentage as a replacement for diesel fuel. When tested in long term tests blends above 20 percent nearly always result in engine damage or maintenance problems. Some authors report success in using vegetable oils as diesel fuel extenders in blends less than 20 percent even in long term durability studies. Degumming is suggested by one author as a way to improve use of raw oils in low level blends. It is apparent that few, if any, engine studies using low-level blends of unmodified vegetable oils, < 20%, have been conducted.

Results of engine and vehicle testing of semi-refined rapeseed oil
http://www.regional.org.au/au/gcirc/6/214.htm

Kevin P. McDonnell, Shane M. Ward & Paul B. McNulty
University College Dublin, Dept of Agricultural & Food Engineering, Earlsfort Terrace.
Dublin 2, Ireland.

ABSTRACT

The renewed interest in environmentally compatible fuels has led to the choice of rapeseed oil as the main alternative to diesel fuel in Europe. The objective of this research was to produce and test an economic and high quality non-esterified rapeseed oil suitable for use as a diesel fuel extender. This was achieved by acidified hot water degumming combined with filtration to five microns. This rapeseed oil, designated as a Semi Refined Oil (SRO), has a high viscosity in comparison with diesel. Hence SRO fuel can only be used as a diesel fuel extender, with inclusion rates of up to 25 %.

SRO proved to be a suitable diesel fuel extender, at inclusion rates up to 25 %, when used with direct injection combustion systems (viz. tractor type engines). Power output (at 540 rev/min at the power take off shaft) was reduced by c. 0.06% for every 1% increase in SRO inclusion rate, and brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) increased by c. 0.14% per 1% increase in SRO inclusion rate (viz. a 25% SRO/diesel blend had a 1.5% decrease in power and a 3.5% increase in BSFC compared with diesel). These values are in accordance with the lower energy density of rapeseed oil fuels compared with diesel. Chemical and viscosity analysis of engine lubrication oil (after c. 170 hours per fuel tested), including metal contamination as an indicator of engine wear occurring, showed that there was no measurable effect on engine lubricating oil due to SRO inclusion in diesel oil. When SRO was used to fuel IDI engines (viz. light duty commercial vehicles), power was considerably reduced mainly due to inadequate air/fuel mixing.

KEYWORDS: Biodiesel, SRO, Injector Fouling, Engine Tests

CONCLUSION:
It was concluded that SRO can be used as a diesel fuel extender in unmodified direct injection diesel engines. The only practical difference observed in this study is that the injectors require more frequent servicing compared with diesel operation. The technology for producing SRO is relatively simple and hence offers the possibility of small, locally based production units as well as economic mass production units. Rape methyl ester [aka. biodiesel] requires major investment in industrial plant. For example, a rape methyl ester plant with a throughput of 36 000 tonnes per annum has an estimated capital cost of $18 million compared with approximately $3 million for an equivalent SRO rapeseed oil plant. Thus at road side diesel station, a 25% SRO/diesel blend would cost approximately $ 0.68/litre as compared to $0.73/litre for a 25% rape methyl ester/ diesel blend. Further work is required to determine if this cost advantage (7%) for a 25% SRO/diesel blend is sufficient to contravene any negative aspects of engine performance.