AltFuel WVO, vegetable oil as fuel: Injector Pump Longetivity (2 Viewers)

[83bj60]

Biodiesel is one way of using veg-oil for diesel fuel. It's not for Dummies

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The other way is to use veg-oil directly.

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A Literature Review [... ... ... ]

It's all fine and dandy if you've never wondered about the ETHICS of using EDIBLE oils which use rangeland or crop land that could be used for FOOD and have an abundant supply of vegetable oil nearby available economically, but what about the rest of the world suffering from high energy costs but which has an abundant and free source of waste from the proliferation of junk food outlets?

Systems are available to make it possible for ALL diesel engines to use vegetable oil directly (elsbett). Why not using WASTE vegetable oil, when we already know the main problems, acidity and water presence? (I already emailed elsbett about it in case you wanted to know)

How difficult could it be to TREAT these oils in such a way so that they would behave mechanically, thermally AND chemically like pure vegetable oil instead of going directly to the Biodiesel route which implies a complex, messy and quite involved process negating much of its true usefulness?

Let this be a challenge for a good chemist in this house

Anyone?

 

[83bj60]

"How difficult could it be to TREAT these oils in such a way so that they would behave mechanically, thermally AND chemically like pure vegetable oil instead of going directly to the Biodiesel route"

Not dificult at all, thousands of us recycle used cooking oil every day and use it in our vehicles, and to heat our houses. The oil I use would otherwise end up in the local landfill.

This isn't the place to debate your ethical issues.

Well then, if you are actually using waste cooking oil in your Landcruiser, WHY don't you post actual, practical information and your experience instead of filling your post with purely theoretical verbiage (I guess there is plenty of rapeseed oil avalable in the Yukon)?

If you are so environmentally consicous as to use oil that would otherwise end up in a landfill, how can you question and minimize my ethical concerns about using farmland to produce oil for fuel instead of food and instead of reusing a resource that is already there and that would indeed be 'dumped in a local landfill'?

 

[fe sus]

As someone who has recently left the service of the US military I can assure you that the ethical questions raised by the use of farmland IS NOT FxxxING COMPARABLE to the cost of procuring and maintaining petroluem supplies.

Should we also not eat beef? It takes a lot more land to make a steak than a loaf of bread...

FYI- cleaned WVO does perform like SVO.

Complex, messy and quite involved process? Have you ever made biodiesel?

I know this isn't the place to rant about this stuff... but come ON! Attacking biodiesel proponents because we're not being environmentally friendly? Give me a break.

 

[HZJ60 Guy]

I'll buy bio (from the Grange in Issaquah) but frankly I dont trust myself (and my rigs are to important to me) to screw around trying to make the stuff myself. I wont run it in the winter. Even around here (Seattle area) Ive experienced gelling issues. Yes, I do use additives in every tank too.

 

[ridgerunner]

Well then, if you are actually using waste cooking oil in your Landcruiser, WHY don't you post actual, practical information and your experience instead of filling your post with purely theoretical verbiage (I guess there is plenty of rapeseed oil avalable in the Yukon)?

That's a poor argument. Why not do it yourself then instead of relying on information already offered (such as the fact that WVO will leave deposits in your engine that will reduce engine life?) And it's not theoretical. There has been several tests conducted at UI regarding WVO and biodiesel (where the article above was published). Testing WVO was performed using few different engines that were generators for refridgeration trailers. They're good rebuild canidates now.

 

[M John Galt]

If one wants to use clean veg-oil in the simplest manner mix it into #1 diesel fuel up to 20%. Problems with engine deposits occur when the concentration is more than 25% VO on cold start. Good quality used cooking oil can be easily cleaned; poor quality oil is best made into biodiesel. Heating diesel fuel improves the engine's efficiency, and adding heat helps the veg-oil combust better, especially at cold startup.

It requires $4 of military\defense to secure $1 of MidEast petroleum.

 

[83bj60]

If one wants to use clean veg-oil in the simplest manner mix it into #1 diesel fuel up to 20%. Problems with engine deposits occur when the concentration is more than 25% VO on cold start.

Now you're talking

Good quality used cooking oil can be easily cleaned;

What is meant by cleaned? I know it needs quite a bit of filtering and water evaporation, but shouldn't its acidity also be neutralized to protect engine parts and if so, how?

poor quality oil is best made into biodiesel. Heating diesel fuel improves the engine's efficiency, and adding heat helps the veg-oil combust better, especially at cold startup.

So, am I to understand that increasing the heavier fuel's temperature can contribute to cleaner combustion? It would then seem that higher combustion temperature with higher thermostat temperatures would help achieveing this, and possibly, if the head can sustain it, why not increasing the basal compression level with the use of a thinner head gasket, perhaps?

Just looking for some ideas there...

One more question: wouldn't propane injection be beneficial in such a setup and possibly eliminate the coking which seems to be the main cause of long term engine damage from the use of vegetable oil?

It requires $4 of military\defense to secure $1 of MidEast petroleum.

Exactly. If that isn't an ethical issue, what is! One more reason to reuse waste oil... (Although I doubt all cars could run on used french fry oil because of its limited supply - correct me if I'm wrong - hence using SVO may be more ethical than using mid east petroleum - I can certainly see that)

We should never fear controversy and heated argumentation on such issues. It is healthy and beneficial to state one's position in a direct manner and provoke discussion. IMO it's the best way to tackle problems and find solutions. Kudos to all who have responded, your input has been very enlightening

Then again, I wouldn't have expected less from fellow Cruiserheads

 

[brownbear]

OK, where is the search button? Where do I find "Methyl Alcohol"? Why are all the letters jumbled down the page?

Sorry, but I have tioo little time to waste in the maze of Corporate Canada, have had my share of bureaucratic rigamarole lately.

Sorry for the rant.

Chris

They are a chemical distributer, just call for a quote. My work place orders all the time. You may have to be a company I do not know. If so make up a company. They are not going to check your business licence... I hope not anyhow...

http://www.univarcanada.com/distribution.htm

 

[M John Galt]

Good quality Used Cooking Oil isn't acidic. The acidic oil is made into biodiesel. Avoid hydrogenated oil and oil used to cook animal parts or precooked breaded stuff. Cleaning UCO involves settling and filtering down to 10 microns. Pressure filtering is faster but gravity works if you have the time.

 

[Radd Cruisers]

You opened my eyes, always was told all oil is acidic.

Thanks

Good quality Used Cooking Oil isn't acidic. The acidic oil is made into biodiesel. Avoid hydrogenated oil and oil used to cook animal parts or precooked breaded stuff. Cleaning UCO involves settling and filtering down to 10 microns. Pressure filtering is faster but gravity works if you have the time.

 

[phatwheels]

What is you car?

What kind of vehicle are you running SVO in? Are you running it in a Canadian spec Landcruiser with an inline pump or a Japanese spec with a rotory pump? If so how many miles do you have on the system? What specific problems have you encountered with SVO/WVO in a Toyota diesel engine.

 

[brownbear]

Here is a site I just found...

http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?p=20501

Agian internet lore can be propagated in many form(eh HHm forums) so always take everything you read on the internet and form your own opinion based on many different aspects and try to read some actual info from studies.

 

[83bj60]

They are a chemical distributer, just call for a quote. My work place orders all the time. You may have to be a company I do not know. If so make up a company. They are not going to check your business licence... I hope not anyhow...

http://www.univarcanada.com/distribution.htm

Thanks!

Chris

 

[83bj60]

Good quality Used Cooking Oil isn't acidic. The acidic oil is made into biodiesel. Avoid hydrogenated oil and oil used to cook animal parts or precooked breaded stuff. Cleaning UCO involves settling and filtering down to 10 microns. Pressure filtering is faster but gravity works if you have the time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand correctly, in practical terms that would mean:
1) Get your oil from Mc Donalds (Canola oil, mostly for french fries), not from Kentucky Fried Chicken (Shortening, mostly for chicken).
2) Filter using a standard trucker's fuel filter (cheap and large surface area, plus has a drain cock to remove water and possibly accumulated sludge)
3) Use an automotive inline pump and keep the oil stored indoors, at room temperature, possibly using a hot water tank for storage (cheap and effective to keep at proper temperature)

As for oil acidity - is there any way to check for it and more importantly, to compensate for it so as to avoid problems?

As for biodiesel - does anyone know if there are parts other than rubber hoses to replace on a 1991 HDJ81 (Bosch rotary pump)?

Thanks for your input

Chris

 

[83bj60]

Here is a site I just found...

http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?p=20501

Agian internet lore can be propagated in many form(eh HHm forums) so always take everything you read on the internet and form your own opinion based on many different aspects and try to read some actual info from studies.

Great link, Brownbear, very informative!

 

[M John Galt]

The test for VO acidity is described here
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/titratingoil/
Settling and filtering oil is discussed here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vegoil-diesel/

 

[phatwheels]

What is you car?

The test for VO acidity is described here
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/titratingoil/
Settling and filtering oil is discussed here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vegoil-diesel/

Mr. Galt,
If you are running SVO in a Toyota Landcruiser this is what I posted this tread for. What are your direct experiences? What is your car you are running SVO in? Inline or rotory pump?

 

[Mountain Goat]

So what are the home brewers doing wrong to end up with blood posioning? I also know a home brewer with tons of left over waste that prompted me to head to 100% VO. He has it just sitting in a barn in drums, waiting for what? I completely agree that large scale, or even small scale proffesional BioD production with the capability to process the waste is great. What I don't like is all the home brewers with big vats with no lids, people stirring drums hovering over the fumes as it cooked on a propane camp stove, spilling waste on the grass. A group demonstrated making BioD at a music festival in this manner, kinda stuck as being a big toxic mess, but that was their way. Sounds like most people on here know what they are doing. Is the methyl alcohol the only harmful bi-product? Is it possible the homebrewers are accidentally creating a harmful acid capable of leaching mercury out of soil? By f*cking up thier methods of something? I have read about this before, but maybe it was just misinformation and now I cannot find anything about it.

What they are commonly doing wrong is not properly controlling their processes. That is not monitoring and controlling pH of the raw and final products. The result is incomplete reaction and highly caustic biofuel and by-products. Lye (sodium hydroxide) if left only partly reacted is really nasty stuff.

 

[brownbear]

I run various percents [<20%] of clean veg-oil mixed with ULSD fuel depending on the temperature in a 13B-T engine LC.

I thought I read somewhere that if you do mixs you still need to add additional heat. As you just raised the viscosity to higher levels than the IP can handle. Maybe a racor heated by 12volts would be suffcient for 20% mix... I dunno

 

[M John Galt]

As mentioned earlier, diesel engine fuel burns better if it's hot. This is especially true if Veg Oil is mixed with the petro diesel. Heat can be added with coolent source heat exchangers, or electrically heated devices.

While adding VO increases viscocity, it also significantly increases lubricity, so there's some trade off. Also, the older inline IPs are more tolerant to higher viscocity fuel than the newer rotary type.