Why can't an 80 flex like.....

[Curran]

Oh, and just to throw some more fuel on the fire, here:

That's 3" of lift and discoed swaybar, otherwise stock. Total investment in suspension at the time was $300(used parts are CHEAP).

Ary

Ary,
What size tires are on that truck? And are those the stock control arms?

Thanks.

 

[upcruiser]

With that 3" lift, they are upgraded to 235/75 15's ha ha

 

[DBS311]

I have a headache from reading this thread. What started out as one man saying he wished for a little more flexed turned into war. Since I own neither an 80 series or a Jeep and am not biased either way, I just wanted to make a suggestion. Instead of talking about size, wheelbase, swaybars, etc., why don't you talk about front suspension design??? You don't even have to talk about Cruiser vs. Jeep. Substitute early Ford, Land Rover, or G-Wagen for the Cruiser. All those share the same radius arm/y arm front suspension. Does anybody argue that the rear of the 80 can't flex? Absolutely not. The issue here is that stock vs. stock, a radius arm will not flex like a 5 link. Forget brand name. Radius arms cannot flex like a 5 link. It's the nature of the beast. I have a '75 Bronco that used to have radius arms until I had a shop design and build a 5 link front. Much like the gentleman here who would like more flex from the front of his 80, I wanted the same from my radius arm Bronco. This thread should be talking about suspension design, not my truck can do this and yours can't.

 

[Waggoner5]

Is that Bens or action jackson's?

Same truck.

 

[Waggoner5]

Again though, the thread was about flex. Ben's 80 is amazing. WOW, though Mr. Slee said that took about $10K.

Maybe 10k the first time but not now.

 

[Arya Ebrahimi]

Curran, those are 31x9.50s. Control arms are stock length and configuration, but they were aftermarket.

Also, for the rear of a cherokee, that's pretty decent flex. They tend to flex amazingly well up front, but the rear of cherokees takes a good bit of fine-tuning to get the leafs to loosen up.

BTW that's my old truck...

Ary

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

So, who can find a picture of a Wrangler, with coils, stock, flexing without the sway bar?

Not me. Don't have any.

Luv this thread.
Luv Cruisers.

 

[Curran]

Same truck.

Nope. Ben's old truck now belongs to Brad and it is for sale here. I think that that is Jackson's rig w/ the TJM bumpers.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Man, what a waste of bandwidth. I just ate my lunch while reading this thread and watching the LA car chase on Fox and I've gotta say having freshly read the entire thread that it reads like a guy on a vendetta to prove Jeeps are better than Cruisers. Not the other way around as Shotts repeatedly pleads before making another "a Wrangler can outdo an 80" comment. Jeez, give it a rest.

I've wheeled with and in all manner of vehicles and perhaps have more experience than anyone here on this list wheeling stock vehicles. I'm a former Product Planner for GM, Toyota and Lexus and my best buddy was the Product Planner for Mitsubishi. It was our job to drive our car lines and competitors and compare them directly. For offroad comparos, we used to use the Lockwood/Miller Jeep Trail in Gorman, and everything in Anza Borrego. I also was hired to guide and drive stock offroad vehicles for Isuzu and represented them for 3 years at a large owner group event in Isuzu.

While I cannot speak for the various modified Jeeps depicted here, my experience with most Jeeps has been that they are lackluster offroad. The Wranglers in particular have always been hamstrung by a lack of articulation that in my opinion was due to too little weight on too much spring so they wouldn't roll over on the road and subject Chrysler to legal liability. Ironically, the offroad champ of the Jeep line in my opinion is the Grand Cherokee with the Quadra Trac gerotor system, which flexes quite well, has nice ratios and reasonable approach and departure angles. Sure, there are places a smaller or shorter wheelbase vehicle will go, which seems to be part of Shott's "Jeeps are better" campaign. Point taken.

The question has been asked repeatedly to show pictures of stock and unmodified Jeeps on trails and it has been pointedly ignored. In my book this is the only way to compare vehicles - stock to stock - and it's where my experience is. Once you start mods all bets are off and it's simply ludicrous to compare them as though they make some statement from their respective manufacturers about offroad prowess.

I'll make a categorically unqualified statement. A stock 80 Series Toyota LandCruiser will kick the crap out of any stock model of Jeep (except one) ever built on a vast array of offroad trails. Obviously all the unlocked Jeeps fall by the wayside immediately because the 80 has stock lockers - leaving the Rubicon. The Rubicon is an excellent offroad vehicle that has been thoughtfully modified for trail use right from the factory. It even comes with MTRS, and it will outperform the stock 80 series in more trail situations than the 80 will outdo it, some due to its size but others rightfully due to its superior maneuverability, lighter weight and approach and departure angles. It's a great vehicle and we enthusiasts should be happy that someone's still making a solid axle rig and even putting factory lockers on it.

I think there's room for all makes on the trails, and all opinions on the forum. But I really think from reading this entire thread at once that the point seems to have become a quest to make a statement about Jeeps. That's fine too, but call a spade a spade.

DougM

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Man, what a waste of bandwidth. I just ate my lunch while reading this thread and watching the LA car chase on Fox and I've gotta say having freshly read the entire thread that it reads like a guy on a vendetta to prove Jeeps are better than Cruisers. Not the other way around as Shotts repeatedly pleads before making another "a Wrangler can outdo an 80" comment. Jeez, give it a rest.

I've wheeled with and in all manner of vehicles and perhaps have more experience than anyone here on this list wheeling stock vehicles. I'm a former Product Planner for GM, Toyota and Lexus and my best buddy was the Product Planner for Mitsubishi. It was our job to drive our car lines and competitors and compare them directly. For offroad comparos, we used to use the Lockwood/Miller Jeep Trail in Gorman, and everything in Anza Borrego. I also was hired to guide and drive stock offroad vehicles for Isuzu and represented them for 3 years at a large owner group event in Isuzu.

While I cannot speak for the various modified Jeeps depicted here, my experience with most Jeeps has been that they are lackluster offroad. The Wranglers in particular have always been hamstrung by a lack of articulation that in my opinion was due to too little weight on too much spring so they wouldn't roll over on the road and subject Chrysler to legal liability. Ironically, the offroad champ of the Jeep line in my opinion is the Grand Cherokee with the Quadra Trac gerotor system, which flexes quite well, has nice ratios and reasonable approach and departure angles. Sure, there are places a smaller or shorter wheelbase vehicle will go, which seems to be part of Shott's "Jeeps are better" campaign. Point taken.

The question has been asked repeatedly to show pictures of stock and unmodified Jeeps on trails and it has been pointedly ignored. In my book this is the only way to compare vehicles - stock to stock - and it's where my experience is. Once you start mods all bets are off and it's simply ludicrous to compare them as though they make some statement from their respective manufacturers about offroad prowess.

I'll make a categorically unqualified statement. A stock 80 Series Toyota LandCruiser will kick the crap out of any stock model of Jeep (except one) ever built on a vast array of offroad trails. Obviously all the unlocked Jeeps fall by the wayside immediately because the 80 has stock lockers - leaving the Rubicon. The Rubicon is an excellent offroad vehicle that has been thoughtfully modified for trail use right from the factory. It even comes with MTRS, and it will outperform the stock 80 series in more trail situations than the 80 will outdo it, some due to its size but others rightfully due to its superior maneuverability, lighter weight and approach and departure angles. It's a great vehicle and we enthusiasts should be happy that someone's still making a solid axle rig and even putting factory lockers on it.

I think there's room for all makes on the trails, and all opinions on the forum. But I really think from reading this entire thread at once that the point seems to have become a quest to make a statement about Jeeps. That's fine too, but call a spade a spade.

DougM

Well said Doug. Excellent post (and not a waste of bandwidth).

One thing though.....you agreed with Scott (Expeditions West) and myself in that a Rubicon is a superior off-roader to the 80. Thanks buddy!

One trouble though with the Grand Cherokee. If you're on a dirt trail and parked on anything but a completey flat surface, you're a prisoner as you can't open the doors or rear hatch.

 

[stuck in GA]

Oh some unibodies just got burned!

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Oh some unibodies just got burned!

Sorry. I just couldn't resist. :whoops:

 

[IdahoDoug]

Yep,

Agree the Rubicon's got the goods. It's not much for versatility, will break stuff regularly, and has miserable onroad manners, but it can hit the trails hard.

Forgot about the unibody flex on the GC. I remember really having trouble getting a door shut once when we stopped for pictures. I have some great video of a trip with one through the Miller Jeep Trail and its 4wd system impressed us. Ironically, this unibody actually helps it articulate a bit. The Volvo C303 and some others in it's class are actually designed with a frame that will flex for better articulation. I don't think that's what Jeep had in mind though - heh.

Doug

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Yep,

Agree the Rubicon's got the goods. It's not much for versatility, will break stuff regularly, and has miserable onroad manners, but it can hit the trails hard.

Forgot about the unibody flex on the GC. I remember really having trouble getting a door shut once when we stopped for pictures. I have some great video of a trip with one through the Miller Jeep Trail and its 4wd system impressed us. Ironically, this unibody actually helps it articulate a bit. The Volvo C303 and some others in it's class are actually designed with a frame that will flex for better articulation. I don't think that's what Jeep had in mind though - heh.

Doug

Memories.

2 years ago we were on Broken Arrow with a bunch of rigs. On that trip, 2 GC's broke motor mounts which resulted in the fan going into the radiator. Both we stranded. Pics of the crack and one of the GCherokees though he's way down in the wide non-deep part, unlike the 100:

The funny part was the Cherokee XJ. While stopped at Chicken Point he had to force the hatch for it to open so he could get his food. He tried closing it several times and finally it looked like he had it after he pulled forward so the flex would change. Couple minutes down the trail the thing flies open and JUST missed a tree branch. We were all LOA's off. God that was funny.

 

[sleeoffroad]

Same truck.

Nope, Ben's truck now belongs to Bradd, Shawns truck (Action Jackson) is a different one.

 

[upcruiser]

Wow, this thread is still going strong! Thanks IDoug for that post, it said in a much more eloquent way, what I was trying to express for the most part.

 

[upcruiser]

Memories.

2 years ago we were on Broken Arrow with a bunch of rigs. On that trip, 2 GC's broke motor mounts which resulted in the fan going into the radiator. Both we stranded. Pics of the crack and one of the GCherokees though he's way down in the wide non-deep part, unlike the 100:

The funny part was the Cherokee XJ. While stopped at Chicken Point he had to force the hatch for it to open so he could get his food. He tried closing it several times and finally it looked like he had it after he pulled forward so the flex would change. Couple minutes down the trail the thing flies open and JUST missed a tree branch. We were all LOA's off. God that was funny.

Damn, I kneew they had some body flex, but to break motor mounts, thats wild.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Wow, this thread is still going strong! Thanks IDoug for that post, it said in a much more eloquent way, what I was trying to express for the most part.

Isn't arguing, fighting, drilling, debating and the like a blast?

 

[upcruiser]

yeah, as long as it doesn't get personal, debating for the most part can be really good. That's the nice thing of these forums, the discussions really generate some interesting thoughts and ideas. I think having outside perspective is a good thing too as if you look on pretty much any single brand car forum, most of the people tend to have elitist attitudes towards there vehicles. Compare that to some of the general forums where it is easier to "keep it real". I'm a mod at www.tripleplate.com and we just had a thread there this last week regarding this subject. That's why I was taking a bit of offense to the charge of being one model macho. ha ha

 

[NCxj]

My amount of flex hasn't changed from stock to after the OME. I'm not terribly familiar with what changes go into the TJ lifts, I know they need about 5" to run 33's. Can they get that for $1,000? I'm not going to argue that the pictures that you posted aren't flexing a ton, but the stock Wranglers for sure don't flex like that from my experience. The Cherokees seem to articulate better stock then the Wranglers.

It doesn't take 5" to run 33's on a wrangler, XJ, ZJ. 5" will get you enough room to run 35's. I will agree TJ's don't flex very well at all out of the box. Seems like Toyota got the suspension right the first go round, very little mods and your keeping up with well build rigs without much issues (on Jeep's, it's awhole different ballgame).

I don't think the rubicon is the best thing either.

You might be able to get a 80 series to flex as much as a long-armed TJ, but they have issues too. It might take a little more to get the more flex out of an 80 (which I think is useless 99% of the time), but look at what stuff you don't have to spend money on out of the box.