Which ATF should i use.

[Tinkerer]

I used Havoline ATF when I did full flush/change of my 99 LX, next time I will probably use Redline D4 synthetic, am using D4 in my other 3 vehicles with very good results, it noticeably improved a 2002 Accord (cold 1-2 shift and gear noise both cold and warm).

 

[AimCOtaco]

So Mobil 1 ATF'ers:

How does the trans feel and shift after going to M1 full synth? Cold? Hot? Generally?

I'm close to getting ours done, I do all my own everything but my mechanic buddy has a real nice ATF flushing machine at his shop so I think I'm going to have him flush it because I don't know any service history and want a good baseline. He told me to bring about 20 qt of whatever I choose to run to get a 99% flush and fill.
I'm in between Redline and Mobil1....

What about the pan, should I have him just pull and clean or should I replace the pan with a new OEM?

So, how's it run and what parts should I buy?

Thanks in advance,

 

[bamachem]

On the M1, I've done two drain/refills so far, so I'm about 1/2-way there. I haven't done a full flush/change of the fluids.

On the pan, if you drop it, just clean the gasket material off, wipe with some acetone, and then put new RTV on it before replacing it. It's very simple. Once you get it off, wipe it out with some shop rags. There are a few (I think 4???) magnets stuck to the bottom of the pan. You simply lift them out and wipe them off as well.

The purpose of dropping the pan is two-fold. First, you can clean out the metal "dust" in the bottom of the pan and change out the screen/filter if you want. Second, it gives you a visual indicator of what kind of wear you're getting (by how much and how big the pieces are on the magnets).

A metallic "dust" is normal. I probably didn't get enough to fill a thimble half-full, and that's with 152K.

 

[AimCOtaco]

A metallic "dust" is normal. I probably didn't get enough to fill a thimble half-full, and that's with 152K.

Thanks! I'm at 173k so it can't hurt to check it out, I'll get over there when he pulls the pan and see what I've got.

 

[jonharis]

x1 Million on M1.
I have it as my primary fluid (oil, diffs, trans) in 3 current vehicles and several previous vehicles. I've never had to do any major maintenance on anything owned (disclaimer, I've never had anything with more than 175k)

My opinion on drain fill vs flush is as followed. I have no scientific proof to back myself up. .

When you flush a system you stir up sediment and caked on residue which in turn flows through every part of that system. While a flush will potentially get 99% (questionable) that 1% is what worries me. That's 1% that is now loose but was happily stuck somewhere that can now cause havoc on sensitive parts.

Drain fill gets you clean fluid which mixes with dirty fluid/residue. You are not however potentially loosening up material. This is what I do at most intervals.

I really like to do what Bachman stated and remove whatever pan/cover is installed to clean out sediment at the bottom. I always use the OEM gasket as opposed to RTV when possible. I would do this at every interval if I had patients but more likely every 2-3 (or 10 when it comes to the oil pan). Good luck.

I would really like to see more scientific, long term studies on vehicles that were flushed vs. drain/filled.

 

[bamachem]

On an old 4Runner, I just pulled the hose going to the trans cooler and put it aimed downward into a 5-gallon bucket placed at the front bumper w/ a pair of vice grips clamped on it (to weigh it down and restrict flow a bit). Crank up the truck and let it bleed out while you add fluid as fast as you can to the dipstick tube. Once you get about 1-qt behind on the fill process, turn the truck off and catch up. Restart the truck and repeat until you get about 4-gallons in the bucket (16-quarts). The fluid coming out will be a bright, clear red and you know when you get fresh fluid out.

This is how you can get a complete change w/o using an external pump/flush machine that might stir up debris in the system. Since you're using the truck's OEM pump, you're not putting any additional pressures/flows on the system that it's not used to seeing.

 

[AimCOtaco]

On an old 4Runner, I just pulled the hose going to the trans cooler and put it aimed downward into a 5-gallon bucket placed at the front bumper....

This is how you can get a complete change w/o using an external pump/flush machine that might stir up debris in the system. Since you're using the truck's OEM pump, you're not putting any additional pressures/flows on the system that it's not used to seeing.

bamachem thats a good method, closely mimics what the machine does... I'm gonna let my buddy with the machine have at it because he won't charge me much and I don't have to worry about running too low while changing.

x1 Million on M1.
My opinion on drain fill vs flush is as followed. I have no scientific proof to back myself up. .

When you flush a system you stir up sediment and caked on residue which in turn flows through every part of that system....

I would really like to see more scientific, long term studies on vehicles that were flushed vs. drain/filled.

I have to disagree here. When you flush, as bama explained, the vehicle is pushing the fluid at it's normal rate, pressure, temperature, etc through all the normal circuits so you won't stir up anything you wouldn't stir up by just driving the thing. In addition, you will get much cleaner fluid for lest cost in the long run with a flush instead of a dilution.
Don't believe? Test it: Fill up a glass of water and add some red food coloring, replace 25% of your red water 4 times, now you have water that is still red but maybe only half as dark as it was... now to flush. Make up a new glass of red water, replace 100% of it with clear water and you have...clean water. Same amount of fluid used with much better results. So by flushing you are richer, cleaner, and greener. And you saved like 10 RTV sealant trees in the process too.

For my 173kmi vehicle that I've only owned for 8kmi, the flush is the no-brainer for me. The mechanic agrees and I'm not a even a customer, just a friend taking up free shop time. Mechanic also said if it was his he would probably spring for Amsoil, RP, RL, or M1 basically any of the top line full synths..

To each their own, just my thinking on the sub,

 

[NMuzj100]

With one of the LC's arguable week points being the 4-speed transmission

Who's argued that?

One recent trans failure that was attributed to abusively poor maintenance?

why would there be any doubt about using Toyota fluid? Seems like a no-brainer to me. The dollars saved are simply not work the risk regardless of what it says on the bottle.

For the following reasons ...
- There is no Toyota fluid! They spec'ed a common, now outdated and weak NA domestic fluid (DEX II) for the A343. Wisely they compensated for the well known weaknesses of the fluid with excellent stock cooling, relatively large sump, conservative service recommendations and a drain plug to encourage frequent fluid changes.
- Any fluid labeled Toyota is just a lowest bidder house brand like Walmart's Supertech.
- Much better fluids are available at a much lower price.



Dex VI datapoint - It's running very nicely in my 98 Camry spec'ed for Dex II. But I don't love the Camry. My 100 gets Amsoil ATF.

 

[TheFuzz]

Aim,

While it may not be as much of an issue with the Toyota transmissions, coming from the world of GM transmissions, I can say that I have read more "2 months after a trans flush my tranny died" threads than I care to recount.

While there is no definitive data that points to the flush as the only cause for failure, the mileage and service intervals have all been relatively different...the only constant being the flush. Again, I can't argue with 100% accuracy that the trans flush had anything specific to do with the posted failures, but I had 123XXX on my Yukon when I sold it (which is high mileage for a GM SUV! ), and I had only changed the fluid once - at 105K. No issues, shifted strong.

I do think that there is some credence to the trans flush argument, but I don't know if it's just a GM thing or not...and I think results vary greatly depending on how the "flush" is performed. If you're doing it like bamachem mentioned, using the trans pump itself to simply EXCHANGE the fluid (most new trans "flush" machines are actually just fluid exchanging machines AFAIK), then I can't imagine anything really being dislodged or stirred up.

I've read that some places actually use a pressurized backflushing system to flush the trans - is there any credence to that? If so, I'd avoid those places like the plague because that most definitely WOULD stir some serious crap up.

 

[agaisin]

On the topic of fluid exchange vs. flush etc, I'm no expert and don't have the hands on experience to say I've done it one way and my trannies lasted 300k miles, but from what I've seen on the topic, it looks like there are a few common issues that could explain how/why flushes get such a bad rap about causing tranny failures:

1) no matter how one does it, if they use the wrong/incompatible fluid you may toast your tranny. I imagine a full flush/exchange could increase chances of failure since 100% of the fluid is wrong type.

2) no matter how one does it, if you don't fill up correctly, you may toast your tranny. Here too, I imagine a full flush/exchange could increase chances of failure unless the proper procedure is followed (i.e. vehicle level and fluid at correct temperature when checking level). And especially when it comes to the sealed (WS ATF) transmissions, I think some just try to (blindly) refill the same amount that was drained rather than following the procedure to check the level.

3) As Fuzz pointed out, if using the pressurized machines, I've heard of the pressure being capable of doing damage. If just exchanging or using a machine that doesn't use 'high' pressures, don't see why anything would get dislodged that wasn't already dislodged.

4) This is probably the real kicker - seems like the real issue with a flush is if the pan is not dropped prior, then there is crap to get dislodged. However if the pan is dropped and cleaned (including filter if one exists), then there shouldn't be anything to dislodged and stir up.

 

[NMuzj100]

there are a few common issues that could explain how/why flushes get such a bad rap about causing tranny failures:

#5 - Most people never do any service to their transmissions and hardly know what they do. Then the thing starts acting up, rough, delayed or missed shifts they go to the mechanic he tells them it sounds like a transmission problem. He informs them that transmissions require two types of service: a fluid flush - $179.99 and rebuild - $3,999 and up. They say "I think it just needs a flush". The new fluid does no harm but it can't undo the damage and the tranny fails shortly thereafter.

 

[TheFuzz]

NM, I think tha's probably true most of the time. If there is existing damage, no amount of new fluid will fix it.

However, in the case of the GM-specific examples that I've discussed with other Tahoe/Yukon owners, there were no symptoms or problems associated with the trans before the fluid flush and subsequent failure, and all other regular maintenance had been performed. Like us here on the Mud, most people on those forums are very maintenance oriented. So, again, I'm at somewhat of a loss as to what the actual failure mechanism was in those cases.

That being said...I've never had an issue with dropping the pan and just exchanging the fluid every 30K, so I think that's what I'll continue to do unless I try out bamachem's method and use the trans pump to exchange the fluid. That seems like the safest form of a "flush" that I've heard of, since you have no outside forces at work - just the pressure that the system is normally under from the pump.

 

[OregonLC]

Who's argued that?

One recent trans failure that was attributed to abusively poor maintenance?



For the following reasons ...
- There is no Toyota fluid! They spec'ed a common, now outdated and weak NA domestic fluid (DEX II) for the A343. Wisely they compensated for the well known weaknesses of the fluid with excellent stock cooling, relatively large sump, conservative service recommendations and a drain plug to encourage frequent fluid changes.
- Any fluid labeled Toyota is just a lowest bidder house brand like Walmart's Supertech.
- Much better fluids are available at a much lower price.



Dex VI datapoint - It's running very nicely in my 98 Camry spec'ed for Dex II. But I don't love the Camry. My 100 gets Amsoil ATF.

As far as the weak point, I'm not going to open that can here. We've all read the posts. I do agree that failure is over-hyped, but still present. What's not a debate is the $4k cost.

What data do you have that supports the inferiority of Toyota fluid? I would believe that if it were a GM fluid product, but most things Toyota are superior.

I've always ran factory brand Tranny fluid and Coolant in my rigs. I guess it's the fear of 'what you don't know can hurt you'. Introducing a non-factory lubricant into a complex system may produce unwanted consequences that I won't realize until 90k down the road when it's too late. I understand that they will perform to the SAE spec, but it's the non-spec'd additives/blend that concerns me. Is there a potential upside of going to non-OEM synthetics? Sure, maybe. But what is the downside to sticking with the factory lube other than cost? So switching seems to introduce an element of risk (arguably very small) with no real benefit.

This isn't a battlefield that I'm going to choose to die on, and I'm interested in your response and continued discussion.

 

[NMuzj100]

OregonLC - I'll agree with you that Toyota Coolant is the only way to go. For the following reasons.
- No one makes a real substitute.
- It has a history of good performance.
- There are known issues with using a another fluid.

None of those apply to the ATF in an A343.
- The A343 was available in 95 and Dex II was the industry standard transmission fluid.
- Toyota specifies a Dex II-III fluid not one of their own.
- Toyota didn't develop a proprietary fluid until WS and it isn't that good. This indicates that transfluid is not one of Toyota's core competencies.
- Dex II-III is the most common, most widely licensed and probably best understood transmission fluid on the planet.
- Much better transmission fluid standards are available and they were mostly designed to back spec to Dex II-III.
- Many dealers do transmission services with a bulk Dex/Merc product and not Toyota branded fluid.

I'm sure the Dex II-III in a Toyota bottle is a quality Dex/Merc blend done by a major blender and will perform fine. But at dealer prices I see no benefit to using it.

 

[splacek007]

20 quarts of Redline D4 is going to be about $240? Where is the hook-up for a cheaper alternative...yes, I know that is 5-10% of the cost of a tranny, but 20 qts.? That's crazy. Amsoil can't be any cheaper. I saw a link on Bobistheoilguy for M1, 6 qts. for around $55.

Is that the going rate, or am I the only guy paying retail!!!

 

[NMuzj100]

Makes the $16 Magnefine filter seem like a bargain!

- I get Amsoil for around $7 a quart from a decent local dealer. Even cheaper by the gallon. By the time you get your gear oil you should get dealer pricing. You do pay for the premium.

- Valvoline Maxlife is in the $4/quart range for a very good semi-syth.
- Supertech Mercon V or Multi-vehicle would be my budget choice.

20 quarts of Redline D4 is going to be about $240? That's crazy.

You'll get butter-smooth shifts and theoretical gas mileage improvements that make it all worth while if you are OCD enough.

 

[AimCOtaco]

Is that the going rate, or am I the only guy paying retail!!!

Wallyworld ~$25/5qts Mobil 1

Redline D4, 5 gallons is about $210 on their own site, plus shipping of course. I COULD be OCD enough, haven't ordered yet though.

 

[splacek007]

Funny...my Walmart doesn't carry M1 for gear oil. Must be specific to locale.

 

[AimCOtaco]

Funny...my Walmart doesn't carry M1 for gear oil. Must be specific to locale.

Sorry to mislead, I meant M1 motor oil at wally world, unfortunately mine doesn't carry the gear oils either.

 

[Tinkerer]

20 quarts of Redline D4 is going to be about $240? Where is the hook-up for a cheaper alternative...yes, I know that is 5-10% of the cost of a tranny, but 20 qts.? That's crazy. Amsoil can't be any cheaper. I saw a link on Bobistheoilguy for M1, 6 qts. for around $55.

Is that the going rate, or am I the only guy paying retail!!!

I think I paid about $110/case of 12 qts Redline D4 several months ago from racerpartswholesale.com.

Automatic transmissions generally do not have significant deposits internally that might break loose when flushed or all new fluid change done. They may have slight varnish in places, but this is not going to cause significant flakes or particulate or etc. to form thromboembolisms or anything like that. They are actually extremely clean internally compared to something like an engine with substantial mileage, although the ATF itself may carry suspended particulate and other unwanted byproducts of wear, as well as burnt results from excessive temperature operation, etc. Filter and magnets trap most particulate.

That said, I would not allow any kind of solvent flush to be done on an auto transmission of mine. Only new clean correct spec ATF. One reason I would shy away from a garage ATF flush machine is because the machine itself may be contaminated with particulate, solvent. "ATF conditioners" or other unwanted stuff. Auto trannies are extremely picky about being absolutely clean with nothing but correct spec ATF in them. When I used to rebuild them (as a pup) we used a special quasi-cleanroom away from the general shop area, with controlled access etc to reduce contamination, for that reason.

I use the shadetree method of full-fluid-change: Drop/clean/replace pan, fill to fill level, disconnect ATF Cooler Hose, crank/run engine while discharging ATF out of Cooler Hose into jug up to about 2 qt, stop engine and add 2 qt, repeat this pump through process iteration several times until complete system fluid changeout done then do it one or two more times to be sure.