turbo manifold project

[landtank]

could it be salvaged?
do 2 of the 3 sections line up?

if the issue was too long a manifold the fix would be simpler

could you just keep the 2 outermost sections and redoo the center?

dont give up on the manifold yet. sit down with your crew and brainstorm.

if you are giving up I want it

We're meeting again later on this week. They indicated that they have a solution and I'm sure it is along the lines I indicated above. My explanation above probably doesn't make much sense with out a diagram but reworking a single 2 cylinder section puts the manifold back into a usable shape.

We're also going to talk about making another one. My reasoning is that I want a spare. Not that I think I'll have a problem, but just want the security of having one.

 

[Lextreme]

Love to see some updates.... Hey Dusty... how goes it/

 

[richg]

Having built a turbo manifold myself out of 316SS for the Eagle Talon that I race, if you'd like any tips or input, feel free to hit me up. Here are some pics of the design and fabrication of my manifold. It is all equal length with proper pairing for a divided inlet turbine. Sorry if they are a bit out of order...

http://www.buzzsmotorsports.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=lastup&cat=-2&page=1

You shouldn't need to break it up into as many sections as you are thinking for a simple log manifold. Bolt it up to the head and turbo (with the flanges jigged together), tack it all together, set up a backpurge on it, weld up as much as possible, break off any tacks needed to fully weld up hard to reach sections, then surface the flanges if necessary and die-grind the ports for clean up.

How many passes are you trying to do this on? Was it sch10 or sch40 pipe?

rich

 

[Lextreme]

I wonder if the 2jz turbo header would work. Perhaps with slightly mod and use a new (1FZ) header flange might work. Best would be modify a set of 2jz twin turbo (china) and modify to fix.

 

[parabola]

I wonder if the 2jz turbo header would work. Perhaps with slightly mod and use a new (1FZ) header flange might work. Best would be modify a set of 2jz twin turbo (china) and modify to fix.

The stock manifold would not be appropriate as it has two exhaust outputs (for the twin turbos). An aftermarket manifold, OTOH, may be something that could be modified, although I would imagine that the sizes may be significantly different.

Anyone have some relevant measurements of a 1FZ head that I could compare to my 2JZ head sitting in my garage?

 

[landtank]

Having built a turbo manifold myself out of 316SS for the Eagle Talon that I race, if you'd like any tips or input, feel free to hit me up. Here are some pics of the design and fabrication of my manifold. It is all equal length with proper pairing for a divided inlet turbine. Sorry if they are a bit out of order...

http://www.buzzsmotorsports.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=lastup&cat=-2&page=1

You shouldn't need to break it up into as many sections as you are thinking for a simple log manifold. Bolt it up to the head and turbo (with the flanges jigged together), tack it all together, set up a backpurge on it, weld up as much as possible, break off any tacks needed to fully weld up hard to reach sections, then surface the flanges if necessary and die-grind the ports for clean up.

How many passes are you trying to do this on? Was it sch10 or sch40 pipe?

rich

Thanks Rich. I'm meeting with them tomorrow and we should be back on track after that. The sectioning helps not only with expansion but manufacturing. After running the expansion numbers on the manifold it could grow about .20" over that of the head from heat expansion. These are very long heads, more so that just a 4 cylinder.

 

[richg]

Thanks Rich. I'm meeting with them tomorrow and we should be back on track after that. The sectioning helps not only with expansion but manufacturing. After running the expansion numbers on the manifold it could grow about .20" over that of the head from heat expansion. These are very long heads, more so that just a 4 cylinder.

Maybe I'm confused as to what you mean. Are you building the manifold with a multiple split cylinder head flange to try to alleviate the thermal expansion problems while driving? Or are you just saying you're going to build it in sections to easier account for the distortion during welding?

rich

 

[concretejungle]

rich, really i should let rick answer this, but i think the answer is yes to both, but mainly construction.

 

[landtank]

Both. It would be more clear if you saw the T4 and wastegate flanges laid out.

 

[Rookie2]

Do you have a feel for what the amount of expansion of the head is? Curious what you anticipate for the differential expansion between the head and manifold, or are you just treating it as the head doesn't move and building the full calculated expansion of the manifold into the attachment?


Rookie2

 

[landtank]

I took the expansion rate of aluminum x 200* x length to calculate it's total expansion and then calculated SS x 1500* x length to get that total expansion and then subtracted the two.

The manifold exceeds the head by .20" total. But since those temps will be out in the main runner and not at the flange I ended up cutting the flange in 4 pieces so the expansion radiates out from the center of the head and cylinders 1 and 6 are separate from the rest.

Just my best guess for now.

 

[landtank]

I just got back from our meeting and it went very well. Now that my head was a little clearer you could see that all but the section for cylinders 4&5 was alright and easily reused.

They are going to right off most of the labor at this point as a learning experience and we'll be moving forward.

When done it will not be any different then if it was made that way the first time around.

I'll update as things move along

 

[Dusty]

The stock manifold would not be appropriate as it has two exhaust outputs (for the twin turbos). An aftermarket manifold, OTOH, may be something that could be modified, although I would imagine that the sizes may be significantly different.

Anyone have some relevant measurements of a 1FZ head that I could compare to my 2JZ head sitting in my garage?

I already played with this idea. the diff in length between exhaust port 1 and 6 on the 2 motors is over 1 inch. so each runner would need to a new position on the flange. Probably considerably easier to modify the 2jz than start from scratch. Especially considering how cheap and plentiful are the 2jz manifolds.

Keep it going Rick

I have my rebuilt head back on and will hopefully will get to start on the modified downpipe this weekend. The turbonetics manifold seems ok but Ricks inverted turbo design is the way to go

 

[richg]

I don't think the expansion differential is as large as you are calculating. For one, the aluminum cylinder at the exhaust ports is going to be quite higher than 200F, and the manifold temperature is going to be a good bit lower than 1500F. Measurements I've seen for aluminum cylinder head temps range in the 400F range near the exhaust flange. And while EGT's on hard runs at high boost levels do get up close to 1600-1700F, the majority of the time under cruise conditions they are around 1200F, with the manifold being a good bit lower in temperature (closer to 800-1000 range). Under cruise is where the manifold normally reaches its max operating temp as it is a sustained high temp to soak the manifold.

Also, maybe I'm missing something, but the linear thermal expansion of that log style manifold is going to be driven by the main log. Split flanges or not, you're going to have the same linear expansion across the cylinder head surface because the log is all welded solid. The split flanges are definitely nice for cylinder sealing and do make it easier for fabrication, but I don't see them helping for the linear expansion.

What schedule pipes are being used? How many passes? Are they backpurging?

rich

 

[LX_TREME]

Tarantula JDM 1FZ turbo manifold

Rick, make something like these

 

[landtank]

If I calculated the differential higher than actual I don't think that is a problem. One of our members has a EGT on his stock truck and sees EGTs over 1200*, I have to believe boosted they are higher. I'm using Schedule 40 and the welding is being done by a professional.

 

[landtank]

Rick, make something like these

No thanks and from what I've read they are a complete waste on a low boosted truck like what I'm doing.

 

[landtank]

I thought that I would update this thread. It's been almost a year and it looks like a working manifold is in the near future. The first one was, well the first one. It wasn't something I wanted on my truck so we went back to the drawing board so to speak and did some redesigning. I was able to salvage some of it so it wasn't a total loss.

I thought I'd post a drawing showing the current design and what i should have in my hands in a few weeks.

 

[Rookie2]

Come up with any good ideas for dealing with the expansion issue and fatiguing of the welds?

 

[landtank]

Come up with any good ideas for dealing with the expansion issue and fatiguing of the welds?

Expansion was dealt with by sectioning the flange, spacing of exhaust inlets and elongating the mounting holes.

As far as weld fatigue, it is being made from 304 which is the common material of choice. The manifold will be braced in two places to the head and with the location of the turbo being just behind the right side motor mount torque issues will be at their minimum.

Anyone who has designed stuff will tell you it's all about compromise. It's a balancing act where hopefully the areas that you need to compromise the most in doesn't adversely effect the performance on a whole. If money was no object this wouldn't be the manifold I'd build.

This is the best that I could come up with and only installing it and running it will bring any short comings to light.