transmission trouble A343F (1 Viewer)

[Damcowboy]

Sigh, if I didn't have bad luck I wouldn't have any luck at all.

OK, so I just put a new engine in my 97 FZJ80, during which I replaced the engine harness with a new OEM Toyota harness. I don't know if this has any relevance to my current issues or not, it might just be coincidental. I never had any transmission issues before the old engine blew and I did the engine swap. I did have trouble keeping the speed above 60 mph just before the engine blew but I assume that was an engine issue, not a tranny issue.

So I pulled the old engine, still attached to the tranny (an A343F) and transfer case (with the viscous coupler previously removed, it had seized). I made room for this by removing the radiator, AC condenser and tranny cooler and front clip, so any ATF in those systems was drained as well. Once the new engine was ready to be installed I disconnected the tranny from the old engine and bolted it to the new. I had drained the ATF from the tranny via the drain plug on the pan before I pulled the old engine from the vehicle. Once the new engine and tranny where ready I re-installed everything back into the vehicle. All the electrical connectors, breather tubes etc where connected prior to re-installing the drivetrain back into the vehicle.

Ok, so everything is back in, I fill up the various fluids, start the engine, its all looking good. This is where I get my first oddity. I cycle through the gears on the shifter to get the ATF moving so I can get a cold reading on the tranny fluid dipstick. As I do this I let off the brake to move the vehicle a little ... nothing, no movement. I try all the shifter positions including reverse, nothing, no engagement, no movement. I shift the 4w4 shifter from low to high, still nothing. I engage the center diff lock, then disengage, now everything is working as it should, I have forward and rearward motion. That was weird.

Now the second oddity. my haines manual (admittedly for a 96 Land Cruiser, not a 97) says the volume of ATF for the tranny is 6.3 litres. I assume this is in total, including what would be in the torque convertor, so I should not have to put in that much I assume. But I put a little under 7 litres in the tranny before the cold level was reached (I cycled through the gears with the engine running before I checked the level). I didn't expect that but ok. There are no leaks anywhere on the engine or transmission. I did smell burning oil when I opened the driver door but I figured that was just residual oil from the engine swap getting hot and burning off. It does seem rather persistent though, but I can't see anywhere where it might be coming from. The tranny fluid temps seems to be good. I double checked all the tranny coolant hoses and they are correctly hooked up.

Ok, so now I ran the vehicle at varying speeds, not exceeding about 55 mph, for 500 miles to break in the new engine. At about the 300 mile mark the tranny went wonky. It felt like it wouldn't shift out of 2 nd gear, it wouldn't go faster than about 40 mph at 3500+ rpms and lacked power. If I stopped while this was happening, with the shifter in drive, then took my foot off the brake without giving any gas, the vehicle would not roll forward slowly like it normally does. In fact I had to give more than normal gas to get it rolling. It felt like I had the parking brake on, there was resistance that had to be overcome. When the tranny issue happened I would pull over, shut everything off and after a few minutes I would restart the engine and things would be back to normal (I sometimes had to shut off the engine twice to get it back to normal). I could tell right away it was normal again because without giving any gas the vehicle would slowly roll forward with my foot off the brake, that was the "tell" that things were normal. Ok the wonky tranny issue seemed to only happen when downshifting was required. That is I could drive the truck accelerating constantly and it would go into overdrive at 55-60 mph. If i stayed driving at those speeds or higher (like when I was on the interstate) there where no issues. It wasn't until I slowed down and the tranny down shifted that the issue would sometimes return. Not all the time but maybe 30% of the time. If I was driving in town it almost certainly would happen at some point. I tried starting the truck and putting the shifter in L gear, then at 2300 rpm put the shifter in 2nd gear, then in D. That didn't stop the issue from popping up. What does seem to work is if I hit the O/D off button before I start to move, and keep it there until I reach about 60 mph, then turn the O/D back on so the tranny can go into overdrive, which it does, the issues doesn't happen. I have to turn off O/D again before I slow down to less than 55 mph and I am able to avoid the issue. I can drive around town with the O/D off and the issue doesn't seem to happen. It did once but I think that was a case where I forgot to turn off the O/D before my speed dropped below 55 mph.

I confirmed the wire colors of the tranny connector from the old harness and the new do match exactly.

Any ideas? electrical? mechanical? The shifter maybe?

 

[greentruck]

Thre is a cable that goes down to the transmission. IIRC, it's called the kick down cable, but I'm just starting on my daily dose of caffeine, so maybe someone else remembers the name better. You didn't mention this cable among the things you mention> Could that be the issue? It requires some sensitive adjustment, so even if hooked up, it may take more fiddling with to get right.

 

[Damcowboy]

Thre is a cable that goes down to the transmission. IIRC, it's called the kick down cable, but I'm just starting on my daily dose of caffeine, so maybe someone else remembers the name better. You didn't mention this cable among the things you mention> Could that be the issue? It requires some sensitive adjustment, so even if hooked up, it may take more fiddling with to get right.

i know the one you mean. basically I didn't do anything with it other than to hook it back up to the throttle body.

 

[BILT4ME]

i know the one you mean. basically I didn't do anything with it other than to hook it back up to the throttle body.

You need to PROPERLY adjust this cable.

Throw the Haynes manual in the trash and download the Factory Service Manual from the RESOURCES section above for FREE.

Proper Fluid is Dexron II.
US Quarts 11.6 from a dry fill (Which is what you did)

You have successfully run your transmission low on fluid for over 500 miles.

The PROPER fill on the transmission is when warm, meaning driven 10 miles (OR MORE) then check the fluid level. In park, engine idling.

So, the first thing is to check the fluid level. If you check it when it is shut off and cold, the level should be like 2" above the full mark.

Running over full is just as bad as running under.

Second thing is to check the cable adjustments.

 

[Damcowboy]

You need to PROPERLY adjust this cable.

Throw the Haynes manual in the trash and download the Factory Service Manual from the RESOURCES section above for FREE.

Proper Fluid is Dexron II.
US Quarts 11.6 from a dry fill (Which is what you did)

You have successfully run your transmission low on fluid for over 500 miles.

The PROPER fill on the transmission is when warm, meaning driven 10 miles (OR MORE) then check the fluid level. In park, engine idling.

So, the first thing is to check the fluid level. If you check it when it is shut off and cold, the level should be like 2" above the full mark.

Running over full is just as bad as running under.

Second thing is to check the cable adjustments.

Ok. The fluid level in the tranny after 20 miles driving is just at the low end of the hot fill zone, so I think thats right.

The cable adjustments I’ll have to research.

 

[Skter505]

You need to PROPERLY adjust this cable.

Throw the Haynes manual in the trash and download the Factory Service Manual from the RESOURCES section above for FREE.

Proper Fluid is Dexron II.
US Quarts 11.6 from a dry fill (Which is what you did)

You have successfully run your transmission low on fluid for over 500 miles.

The PROPER fill on the transmission is when warm, meaning driven 10 miles (OR MORE) then check the fluid level. In park, engine idling.

So, the first thing is to check the fluid level. If you check it when it is shut off and cold, the level should be like 2" above the full mark.

Running over full is just as bad as running under.

Second thing is to check the cable adjustments.

He never drained the torque converter so no it wasn't a dry refill. Never trust a cold fluid level other than a ballpark. Get it warm and check it.

You really need to properly adjust the kick down cable properly as it can negatively affect the shifting like you describe.

 

[BILT4ME]

Ok. The fluid level in the tranny after 20 miles driving is just at the low end of the hot fill zone, so I think thats right.

The cable adjustments I’ll have to research.

So, you need to bring it up to the full level. The difference between those markings is one PINT, not quart, I believe.

 

[Damcowboy]

Ok, sounds good, that gives me a step to take now at least.

 

[Malleus]

Your problem cannot be the shifter; it only functions to move the mechanical shift lever, inside the case. Once the transmission is in gear, it'll stay there (unless it's in drive, then the computer is running things).

Did you verify the complete engagement of the torque converter before you reinstalled the transmission? It should have been about 5/8" below the bellhousing face.

---

The torque converter lockup speed is between 50-53 mph. To test the torque converter lockup operation, drive at those speeds and very slightly depress the gas pedal, while watching the tachometer. The speed should increase with pedal pressure, without an increase in engine rpm. You're looking for a 1 or 2 mph increase, not foot on the floor stuff. If the tach increases significantly, the lockup isn't happening. There are further tests in the service manual.

If, at any speed, you see an increase in engine speed without a related increase in ground speed (the tach moves when the speedo doesn't) the clutches are slipping. Even climbing a steep hill, the two should move together; you may see an decrease in ground speed compared to travel over flat ground, but the relative movement of the needles will be the same.

---

How are you verifying the transmission temperatures? Unless you have an aftermarket sensor and gauge somewhere, there is no way to tell the ATF is too hot, until it is.

---

You said you smelled oil; is it oil or ATF? The two smell competely different; you should be able to differentiate between the two. If it's oil, you should be able to track down the source; if you smell burning ATF, unless you spilled some on an exhaust part, you're clutches are cooked. If you find spilled ATF on the engine or exhaust, clean it off with kerosene, nothing else will remove it. Let it sit for a few minutes to flash off before starting the engine.

---

Ignore the advice about adjusting the cable (this is left over from the hydraulically operated previous transmissions); do follow the advice about downloading the proper service manual from the resources section (that forum really should be renamed "Nothing To See Here, Move Along - why do people have to be told to look there?).

The cable only regulates the internal pressure, it will not prevent the transmission from shifting. Low fluid will prevent the proper operation. @BILT4ME is correct, you need 12 quarts for a complete dry fill, however you can't drain out more than about 6 quarts using the pan and disconnecting the cooler and lines. If you put in more than that, you've overfilled it. If it's overfilled, you'll see foamed ATF on the dipstick when it's been run. If it's too low, you'll smell burnt fluid (see page DI-141).

You should take the time to replace the fluid, not drain the pan, but that's up to you. You can use the front cooler lines to exchange it, using the transmission pump with the engine running. This will remove all the fluid, except what's in the torque converter, which you can't remove without cutting it open (a small amount will bleed out while exchanging it, but not all - the difference will be negligible on the operation).

---

The complete transmission problem diagnosis begins on page DI-133 (you can skip to that page by typing CTRL+F and then DI-133 in the FIND dialog box). You can use a generic OBDII dongle to check the fault codes (see the notes on page DI-137). Transmission fault codes (not drivetrain codes) are explained on pages DI-154 through DI-186.

The road test is on page DI-139 through DI-140, step 5.

The pressure test (functional test, not the gauge pressure test) is in the service manual, page DI-143 through page DI-144, step 7.

The manual shift test is on page DI-146; the diagnostic trouble codes are on page DI-147.

---

The automatic transmission service manual diagnostic procedures are divide in to three areas:
1. Electronic problems (which can be diagnosed while the transmission is installed); these are on page DI-150.
2. Mechanical problems (which can be diagnosed while the transmission is installed); these are on pages DI-151 through DI-152.
3. Mechanical problems (which cannot be diagnosed while the transmission is installed); these are on pages DI-153 through DI-154.

---

You would be well advised to read at least the diagnostic sections for the transmission completely, before attempting any diagnosis or repairs. Unless you have extensive transmission repair experience, you should not try to cookbook your way through it.

---

The operation and on vehicle repair of the transmission is in the section beginning on page AT-1.

Transfer motor operation service checks are on pages TR-40 and TR-41.

 

[Damcowboy]

Your problem cannot be the shifter; it only functions to move the mechanical shift lever, inside the case. Once the transmission is in gear, it'll stay there (unless it's in drive, then the computer is running things).

Did you verify the complete engagement of the torque converter before you reinstalled the transmission? It should have been about 5/8" below the bellhousing face.

The torque converter lockup speed is between 50-53 mph. To test the toqrue converter lockup operation, drive at those speeds and very slightly depress the gas pedal, while watching the tachometer. The speed should increase with pedal pressure, without an increase in engine rpm. You're looking for a 1 or 2 mph increase, not foot on the floor stuff. If the tach increases significantly, the lockup isn't happening. There are further tests in the service manual.

If, at any speed, you see an increase in engine speed without a related increase in ground speed (the tach moves when the speedo doesn't) the clutches are slipping. Even climbing a steep hill, the two should move together; you may see an decrease in ground speed compared to travel over flat ground, but the relative movement of the needles will be the same.

How are you verifying the transmission temperatures? Unless you have an aftemarket sensor and gauge somewhere, there is no way to tell the ATF is too hot, until it is.

You said you smelled oil; is it oil or ATF? The two smell competely different; you should be able to differentiate between the two. If it's oil, you should be able to track down the source; if you smell burning ATF, unless you spilled some on an exhaust part, you're clutches are cooked. If you find spilled ATF on the engine or exhaust, clean it off with kerosene, nothing else will remove it. Let it sit for a few minutes to flash off before starting the engine.

Ignore the advice about adjusting the cable (this is left over from the hydraulically operated previous transmissions); do follow the advice about downloading the proper service manual from the resoures section (that forum really should be renamed "Nothing To See Here, Move Along - why do people have to be told to look there?).

The cable only regulates the internal pressure, it will not prevent the transmission from shifting. Low fluid will prevent the proper operation. @BILT4ME is correct, you need 12 quarts for a complete dry fill, however you can't drain out more than about 6 quarts using the pan and disconnecting the cooler and lines. If you put in more than that, you've overfilled it. If it's overfilled, you'll see foamed ATF on the dipstick when it's been run. If it's too low, you'll smell burnt fluid (see page DI-141).

You should take the time to repace the fluid, not drain the pan, but that's up to you. You can use the front cooler lines to exchange it, using the transmission pump with the engine running. This will remove all the fluid, except what's in the torque converter, which you can't remove without cutting it open (a small amout will bleed out while exchaning it, but not all - the difference will be negligible on the operation).

The complete transmission problem diagnosis begins on page DI-133 (you can skip to that page by typing CTRL+F and then DI-133 in the FIND dialog box). You can use a generic OBDII dongle to check the fault codes (see the notes on page DI-137). Transmission fault codes (not drivetrain codes) are explained on pages DI-154 through DI-186.

The road test is on page DI-139 through DI-140, step 5.

The pressure test (functional test, not the gauge pressure test) is in the service manual, page DI-143 through page DI-144, step 7.

The manual shift test is on page DI-146; the diagnostic trouble codes are on page DI-147.

The automatic transmission service maunla diagnostic procedures are divide in to three areas:
1. Electronic problems (which can be diagnosed while the transmission is installed); these are on page DI-150.
2. Mechnical problems (which can be diagnosed while the transmission is installed); these are on pages DI-151 through DI-152.
3. Mechnical problems (which cannot be diagnosed while the transmission is installed); these are on pages DI-153 through DI-154.

You would be well advised to read at least the diagnostic sections for the transmission completely, before attempting any diagnosis or repairs. Unless you have extensive transmission repair experience, you should not try to cookbook your way through it. The operation and on vehicle repair of the transmission is in the section beginning on page AT-1.

Transfer motor operation service checks are on pages TR-40 and TR-41.

Ok, there is a lot there. I’ll preface this by saying I dont know a darn thing about automatic transmissions, I dont know how they work and darn sure have no interest in opening one up. If I knew my issue was mechanical I’d rather just buy a new one and swap it out then try to fix mine. To be clear, I am not a mechanic, I like working on these trucks but not to the extent I have been forced to with this one. I bought this 80 series for the legendary reliability, drove it for 7k miles and then the engine blew at 138k miles for reasons I dont know. Now the tranny is acting up. I should have stuck with my 96 Bronco. I’m into this thing so deep at this point I could have bought the new Land Cruiser and had money left over.

I did not check the engagement of the torque convertor. I have no idea what that is. I work for a construction company and the in house mechanics helped me bolt it up to the new engine. One of the mechanics is a FJ Cruiser guy so hopefully he knew to check it but I didnt.

I havent checked torque convertor lock up the way you describe, I’ll have to do that. Thank you for the description, more knowledge is good.

I think the clutches are slipping. When the tranny issue happens and there is even a slight hill my speed drops off fast regardless of what I do with the accelerator.

I dont know the difference between oil and ATF smell, I’d have to heat a piece of metal and drip some of each on it to know what the difference is. Knowing my luck the clutches are in fact cooked. But I dont know.

I havent read the service manual, that thing is 1300 pages I think? I’ll down load it and follow your page references, thanks for that.

I’m venting a little here, sorry about that. I am waaaaay outside my knowledge base. I can do brakes, axles, weld bumpers, install gas tanks, lots of the external type stuff. But major surgery like engine swaps, tranny rebuilds or setting up diff gears is not something I ever wanted to learn. I dont have the time. So far my FZJ80 journey has been an absolute horror story I wish I’d never started.

 

[Malleus]

I understand your frustration, and I know the manual is a huge paperweight, if you don't actually need a page or two to do something useful - that's why I gave you the page numbers. The copy of the 1997 service manual I posted in the resources section has bookmarks for that very reason. I strongly suggest downloading a version 10 copy of the Acrobat Reader (if you can't find a copy of the full version 10 Acrobat, or just don't want it) - the newer versions suck, and I use Adobe every day, all day long.

I realize that there is a lot to digest from my post, but, unfortunately, there are a lot of unrelated problems which can result from an engine/transmission swap, and although Toyotas are really very easy to work on, for the most part, they are not Fords or Chevys (or construction vehicles), and if that's your basis for experience, they can be very frustrating.

Try to read through what I posted, I'll split it into functional areas for you.

If you have only put 500 miles on the transmission, and they were break in miles (not racing miles, and it was only low on ATF and not dry, it's unlikely the damage is severe enough to warrant replacing it. However, if you don't have the time, or the inclination, to troubleshoot the problem, and I can understand that position, I replacement transmission will be quicker. It will also be more money, so you have to make that valuation.

 

[CJF]

Ok, sounds good, that gives me a step to take now at least.

You do know the proper way to check fluid level?

 

[Malleus]

It's possible that the torque converter slipped off the pump input shaft while you were installing the transmission. If you get to the point where the diagnostics are indicating that the problem is related to the converter, it's easy enough to check without removing anything major. You will have to remove all the bellhousing bolts to pull the transmission away from the engine though. Once there is enough room to see between the bellhousing and the crankcase, you can eyeball the distance between the front of the converter and the bellhousing face.

If they look close, it's too far out. If it looks like it's set back a bit, it's probably OK.

FWIW, don't get too down on yourself. I know it looks bad now, but pulling a drivetrain is a significant chore most people haven't checked off their list. You've done it and your truck works, although not perfectly. With a little more effort, you'll be back on the road. There's plenty of moral support here. I'd help out physically, but you're too far for me to reach.

 

[Malleus]

You do know the proper way to check fluid level?

Yes, it's in the pages I cited in my post.

 

[Damcowboy]

It's possible that the torque converter slipped off the pump input shaft while you were installing the transmission. If you get to the point where the diagnostics are indicating that the problem is related to the converter, it's easy enough to check without removing anything major. You will have to remove all the bellhousing bolts to pull the transmission away from the engine though. Once there is enough room to see between the bellhousing and the crankcase, you can eyeball the distance between the front of the converter and the bellhousing face.

If they look close, it's too far out. If it looks like it's set back a bit, it's probably OK.

FWIW, don't get too down on yourself. I know it looks bad now, but pulling a drivetrain is a significant chore most people haven't checked off their list. You've done it and your truck works, although not perfectly. With a little more effort, you'll be back on the road. There's plenty of moral support here. I'd help out physically, but you're too far for me to reach.

Thanks, I appreciate the kind words. I’ll get it eventually.

 

[cjmoon]

Thanks, I appreciate the kind words. I’ll get it eventually.

if the torque converter was not fully engaged it would bolt together and bind. you're good there no need to investigate.

top off the trans they are sensitive to level