Towing with an 80?? (1 Viewer)

[CondeCruiser]

So I've found two FZJ80s and I'll be narrowing it down to one here in a couple of days. I've also decided to keep my 40 that I had in the F/S thread and make it a trail rig since I sold my other rig yesterday. My question is do any of you tow with your 80's? I was thinking it would do ok with a weight distribution hitch and maybe a tranny cooler. Let me know what you think.

Thanks
Eric

 

[bruff]

Search "towing" and tons will show up for you. Tons of people tow with them.

 

[zukinut]

I had a post on this, do a search for it. Im gonna tow my zuk buggy with mine. Just remember that pulling isnt as imporant as stopping.

Will

 

[greentruck]

Rated in the US at 5000 pounds, the 80 and other LCs see that rating exceeded elsewhere be sizable margins.

I just happened to get around to installing one of those pintle/ball mount hitches to the OEM holes on the rear crossmember/bumper this evening. Picked it up at a Boxing Day sale for $40 because it was an open box.

It came with a yellow warning sticker reminding that that hitch's rating was limited to 16,000 pounds. I was going to throw it away, until I thought how it would make interesting reading for someone sitting in traffic behind me at the stoplight

Naturally, I have no intention of towing 8 tons, just got a tiny tilt-back I use to move my tiller around and fetch sheets of plywood home, plus maybe hook a strap to for light recovery ops. Should keep people back who like to nudge in parallel parking, too.

 

[KliersLC]

My 80 towed my pig just fine until the trailer came apart. See sig.

 

[Grench]

So I've found two FZJ80s and I'll be narrowing it down to one here in a couple of days. I've also decided to keep my 40 that I had in the F/S thread and make it a trail rig since I sold my other rig yesterday. My question is do any of you tow with your 80's? I was thinking it would do ok with a weight distribution hitch and maybe a tranny cooler. Let me know what you think.

Thanks
Eric

Factory hitch is not rated for weight distribution (you may already know that). Search on Drawtite if you want to do that.

Stopping is a very important issue as well. If you're working with something heavy enough for a load distribution setup - make sure you take trailer brakes into account -and- that your 80s brakes are in proper working order.

IMHO YMMV

 

[Brentbba]

Summary - Yota does not recommend the use of a weight distribution hitch. Read your owners manual for that little tidbit. That being said, I used one for a few years before putting Airlift airbags in the rear coils. Much better way to go IMHO.

You'll need to wire the truck for a brake controller if your trailer has electric brakes. Surge brakes, no problem with a standard 4 pin connector.

Many of us have towed. Personally, up to 4,000 lbs. Others have gone higher.

 

[Grench]

...before putting Airlift airbags in the rear coils. Much better way to go IMHO.

Bad idea IMHO. I keep seeing this repeated - that people think all you need to do to account for a large tongue weight is to lift the back of the truck - and that isn't it at all.

It looks cool to jack up the back end to where the front gets lifted to, but it still leaves the front axle unloaded. The benefit is strictly cosmetic.

When you put a lot of weight on the hitch, the back end goes down and the front end goes up.

Weight distribution hitches shift the load forward to compress the front springs - and even out the truck's front-rear height. This moves hundreds of pounds of down force from the rear axle to the front to help keep those front wheels firmly planted.

With airbags, you're just lifting the rear end higher - and leaving that load in back. This leaves the front end unloaded and makes it easier for the trailer to push the truck around. Think of it as making the fulcrum of the teeter totter firmer and taller. It just makes the bounce on the other end (front wheels) higher and more dramatic when the load changes on the back (trailer hits a dip).

Airbags are -not- a substitute for a load distribution system. Using them for a tongue weight that requires a load distribution system is, IMHO, dangerous as hell.

IMHO YMMV - but I wouldn't want my family to be on the same road as you with your airbag solution while you're hauling a massive trailer.

 

[Brentbba]

Bad idea IMHO. I keep seeing this repeated - that people think all you need to do to account for a large tongue weight is to lift the back of the truck - and that isn't it at all.

It looks cool to jack up the back end to where the front gets lifted to, but it still leaves the front axle unloaded. The benefit is strictly cosmetic.

When you put a lot of weight on the hitch, the back end goes down and the front end goes up.

Weight distribution hitches shift the load forward to compress the front springs - and even out the truck's front-rear height. This moves hundreds of pounds of down force from the rear axle to the front to help keep those front wheels firmly planted.

With airbags, you're just lifting the rear end higher - and leaving that load in back. This leaves the front end unloaded and makes it easier for the trailer to push the truck around. Think of it as making the fulcrum of the teeter totter firmer and taller. It just makes the bounce on the other end (front wheels) higher and more dramatic when the load changes on the back (trailer hits a dip).

Airbags are -not- a substitute for a load distribution system. Using them for a tongue weight that requires a load distribution system is, IMHO, dangerous as hell.

IMHO YMMV - but I wouldn't want my family to be on the same road as you with your airbag solution while you're hauling a massive trailer.

We'll agree to disagree here Grench.

 

[Michael Hanson]

I like the whole package. Cruiser maintained,air bags,weight dist. hitch,elec.brakes,extended side mirrors,well maintained trailer,6-9 ply side wall tires on trailer driven under the speed limit. Mike

 

[greentruck]

Purely speculation on this, as I'm not planning on towing anything big enough to need it and I am no suspension expert...

But I wonder if the issue with a weight-distributing hitch is because of the type of suspension (coil springs, radius arms) on the 80? The W-D hitches I've seen were all set up to use on vehicles that used leaf spring rear axles. Anyone know?

 

[Grench]

Purely speculation on this, as I'm not planning on towing anything big enough to need it and I am no suspension expert...

But I wonder if the issue with a weight-distributing hitch is because of the type of suspension (coil springs, radius arms) on the 80? The W-D hitches I've seen were all set up to use on vehicles that used leaf spring rear axles. Anyone know?

Personally, and this is just speculation, the non-WD rating Toyota put on the 80 has more to do with the spare tire than the springs. the standard hitch on these has a short shank to allow for the spare tire.

There -is- an option that is rated for load distribution though.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/104627-drawtite-hitch-install-red-96-80-a.html

The Drawtite is rated at 600/6000 Load distribution. The catch? The thing sticks out the back far enough to eat your shins if you walk into it. You'll only do that once though.

 

[greentruck]

The thing sticks out the back far enough to eat your shins if you walk into it. You'll only do that once though.

Heck, I'm getting old enough, I'd probably do it twice, the second time pretty soon after the bone bruise from the first time had finally healed up

Thanks for the info. I've often though about a small basecamp type trailer and may still do that. Anything big enough to need a leg-whacking hitch like that is not in the plans

 

[Ebag333]

Weight distribution hitches shift the load forward to compress the front springs - and even out the truck's front-rear height. This moves hundreds of pounds of down force from the rear axle to the front to help keep those front wheels firmly planted.

And this is why Mr. T does not recommend a weight distributing hitch.

The 80's were not built with weight distributing hitches in mind. WD hitches cause different forces to be applied to the frame than a standard hitch. While the 80's are so overbuilt that I wouldn't worry too much about it, when objects have stresses applied that they were not designed for, they can fail spectacularly, regardless of how strong they are. Think of the "unsinkable" Titanic.

The other problem is overloading the front axle. Again not too much an issue for us, especially if you have some nice stiff springs and shocks.



You say that you don't want to be on the road with an 80 that's towing the max weight or less as recommended by Mr T. I say I don't want to be on the road with an 80 that's towing in a fashion that Mr. T specifically says not to do.

If Brent gets in an accident, and is towing with his airbags do you think the lawyers are going to say "Gee Brent, why were you towing the way you were instructed to by Toyota?"

On the other hand should you get in an accident, how are you going to respond when the lawyers ask "Grench, you knew that Toyota specifically instructed you not to use a weight distributing hitch, yet you did so anyway. Why?"

 

[Brentbba]

And this is why Mr. T does not recommend a weight distributing hitch.

The 80's were not built with weight distributing hitches in mind. WD hitches cause different forces to be applied to the frame than a standard hitch. While the 80's are so overbuilt that I wouldn't worry too much about it, when objects have stresses applied that they were not designed for, they can fail spectacularly, regardless of how strong they are. Think of the "unsinkable" Titanic.

The other problem is overloading the front axle. Again not too much an issue for us, especially if you have some nice stiff springs and shocks.



You say that you don't want to be on the road with an 80 that's towing the max weight or less as recommended by Mr T. I say I don't want to be on the road with an 80 that's towing in a fashion that Mr. T specifically says not to do.

If Brent gets in an accident, and is towing with his airbags do you think the lawyers are going to say "Gee Brent, why were you towing the way you were instructed to by Toyota?"

On the other hand should you get in an accident, how are you going to respond when the lawyers ask "Grench, you knew that Toyota specifically instructed you not to use a weight distributing hitch, yet you did so anyway. Why?"

Best explanation for 'why not' regarding Yota's manuals not recommending weight distribution hitches I've seen! Thx. That's all I'll say. You've said the rest very well IMHO.

 

[Grench]

This is going to be fun - you are deliberately twisting what I said above.

And this is why Mr. T does not recommend a weight distributing hitch.

Not quite. Mr. T does not recommend using a weight distributing hitch on the standard/stock/dealer installed receiver that most people here have.

The 80's were not built with weight distributing hitches in mind. WD hitches cause different forces to be applied to the frame than a standard hitch. While the 80's are so overbuilt that I wouldn't worry too much about it, when objects have stresses applied that they were not designed for, they can fail spectacularly, regardless of how strong they are. Think of the "unsinkable" Titanic.

That is why there is a certified after market solution that I detailed in the link above produced by Drawtite. Even that is only rated to 600lbs at the hitch and 6,000 lbs. I have never endorsed using a load distribution system on the stock/standard hitch or exceeding rated claims.

The other problem is overloading the front axle. Again not too much an issue for us, especially if you have some nice stiff springs and shocks.

The difference on the front axle is between UNLOADING it by a couple of hundred pounds (airbags) or RELOADING it with the stock mass plus a couple of hundred pounds (load distribution).

You say that you don't want to be on the road with an 80 that's towing the max weight or less as recommended by Mr T. I say I don't want to be on the road with an 80 that's towing in a fashion that Mr. T specifically says not to do.

Again, Mr. T says to not use load distribution with Mr. T's supplied hitch. Drawtite says it is OK to use load distribution with it's hitch on Mr. T's vehicle. They are VERY different designs.

Do you honestly consider the use of air bags to be a better solution? Higher COG and an unloaded front axle = foolish IMHO.

If Brent gets in an accident, and is towing with his airbags do you think the lawyers are going to say "Gee Brent, why were you towing the way you were instructed to by Toyota?"

And here we have it - Mr. T NEVER ENDORSED AIRBAGS. No-one of ANY authority has. Brent is compensating for excessive hitch load by using airbags to further exacerbate an already bad situation - the unloaded front axle. Gee Brent, why were you modifying your vehicle in such a way as to make it less stable on the road while pulling a heavy trailer? Please show me where Toyota recommends using air bags to hoist up the back end of the vehicle while pulling a heavy trailer.

On the other hand should you get in an accident, how are you going to respond when the lawyers ask "Grench, you knew that Toyota specifically instructed you not to use a weight distributing hitch, yet you did so anyway. Why?"

Because I'm not using Toyota's hitch. I'm using Drawtite's hitch that is rated for load distribution. It is printed right on the hitch. The hitch is made specifically for this vehicle.

Did you bother to read anything I wrote in my previous comments before writing that up?

Air bags are NOT a safe substitute for a properly set up load distribution system. Properly set up load distribution includes using a properly rated hitch - which the standard one is not.

Air bags -do- have a use. If you have a stock suspension but are carrying a lot of weight forward or on top of the rear axle, then using them for leveling makes sense.

In towing, we are talking about a mass 3' behind the rear axle that is levering the front end up and squashing the rear.

Get that front axle back down where it can do some good.

As always, IMHO YMMV and I am not a mechanic.

 

[Grench]

Best explanation for 'why not' regarding Yota's manuals not recommending weight distribution hitches I've seen! Thx. That's all I'll say. You've said the rest very well IMHO.

So... the fact that it has nothing to say about jacking up the rear with air bags to aesthetically compensate for too much tongue weight means it must be OK?

Mr. T's recommendations are regarding Mr. T's hitch that has a short shank length that you can't even really put a proper load distribution hitch into without removing the spare tire. I agree with them on that - their hitch was not designed to be used with a load distribution system. Their hitch is not the only hitch that will fit on an 80 series Land Cruiser or LX450.

 

[jibber]

 

[Ebag333]

Not quite. Mr. T does not recommend using a weight distributing hitch on the standard/stock/dealer installed receiver that most people here have.

That's not true. Not all 80's had a hitch installed. The hitches were port and/or dealer installed, IIRC they were not factory installed (or the majority were not). But all 80's came with an owners manual that specifically states "this vehicle is not designed for a weight distributing hitch" (or words to that effect).
So, it begs two questions:
1) Why would it be included in all manuals when none (or very few) of the vehicles came "standard" that way?
2) Why would the manual state that the vehicle is not designed for a WD hitch, and not specifically state that the hitch is not designed for WD?

That is why there is a certified after market solution that I detailed in the link above produced by Drawtite. Even that is only rated to 600lbs at the hitch and 6,000 lbs. I have never endorsed using a load distribution system on the stock/standard hitch or exceeding rated claims.

Drawtite rates the hitch for WD, but that does not mean that the vehicle is rated for WD.

The difference on the front axle is between UNLOADING it by a couple of hundred pounds (airbags) or RELOADING it with the stock mass plus a couple of hundred pounds (load distribution).

And a couple hundred pounds of force applied in the wrong way or in the wrong spot can have absolutely devistating effects.
Ever watch human wrecking balls (or whatever that show is called)? It's amazing what two guys can destroy purely by hand (or foot). I watched them take a ~500 lb projector and slam it against a 2x6 wall without even denting it...then just using their feet and weight destroy the same wall by hitting it in specific places.

Again, Mr. T says to not use load distribution with Mr. T's supplied hitch. Drawtite says it is OK to use load distribution with it's hitch on Mr. T's vehicle. They are VERY different designs.

I agree that they are different designs, but I doubt Drawtite will tell you to use their hitch on a vehicle where the manufacturer say not to use a WD hitch. What they will tell you is that their hitch is rated for WD purposes and that it will bolt up. No where on their site do they say to use WD on an 80. They say that their hitch is rated for it, but that's it.
Perhaps slightly deceiving, but they can't really be expected to know every single vehicle that the manufacturer recommends for/against WD applications.

Do you honestly consider the use of air bags to be a better solution? Higher COG and an unloaded front axle = foolish IMHO.

Yes. Why? Well, for one Mr. T recommends a dead weight style hitch. As far as air bags goes, there is zero difference between using air bags and a heavier spring. So lets say that with my OME Mediums my ride height drops 1/2" when I hook up my 3k lb trailer (which is exactly what it does). Lets say that I don't like this, so I swapped my OME mediums for heavies in the rear. Problem solved...except I have to swap springs every time.
Air bags solve that problem because all they do is increase the spring rate of what you have. Throwing in a set of airbags is no different than swapping in some heavies, except I can more easily increase/decrease the spring rate. Would you say driving around with OME heavies is dangerous too?

And here we have it - Mr. T NEVER ENDORSED AIRBAGS. No-one of ANY authority has. Brent is compensating for excessive hitch load by using airbags to further exacerbate an already bad situation - the unloaded front axle. Gee Brent, why were you modifying your vehicle in such a way as to make it less stable on the road while pulling a heavy trailer? Please show me where Toyota recommends using air bags to hoist up the back end of the vehicle while pulling a heavy trailer.

While Mr. T does not endorse airbags they do not specifically tell you not to use airbags either. Use of airbags introduces the exact same legal problems as swapping to a heavier spring.

Because I'm not using Toyota's hitch. I'm using Drawtite's hitch that is rated for load distribution. It is printed right on the hitch. The hitch is made specifically for this vehicle.

Again, the hitch is rated for WD. That doesn't magically make the vehicle rated for it.

Air bags are NOT a safe substitute for a properly set up load distribution system. Properly set up load distribution includes using a properly rated hitch - which the standard one is not.

And use of a vehicle that is properly rated for weight distribution. Which the standard 80 is not.

Air bags -do- have a use. If you have a stock suspension but are carrying a lot of weight forward or on top of the rear axle, then using them for leveling makes sense.

In towing, we are talking about a mass 3' behind the rear axle that is levering the front end up and squashing the rear.

The only problem here is that anything in the cargo area will reduce weight on the front axle.
Take the 3rd row package, for example:
Weight without 3rd row
Front: 2568 lbs
Rear: 2183 lbs
Total: 4751 lbs
Weight with 3rd row
Front: 2557 lbs
Rear: 2293 lbs
Total: 4850 lbs
So in this case the 3rd row package adds 99 pounds of total weight. But that package reduces the weight on the front axle by 11 pounds, despite the fact that the 3rd row is directly above the rear axle.
So in both scenarios (trailer and weight in the cargo area) adding weight increases the force downward on the rear axle but reduces the downward force on the front axle. Yet only in one of these scenarios is airbags okay. Logically (as in according to the laws of physics ) the two scenarios have the same effect, so adding airbags into the equation has the same effect. The only difference is the amount of force and where it's applied, but even that can easily be equivelant.
According to your logic if I have my camping trailer behind me an 100 lb tounge weight, and use airbags, that's a no-no. But if I have 600 lbs of concrete bags in the cargo area and use air bags, that's totally cool. Yet in both situations that would result in a similar effect on both the rear and front axle.


Any way you cut it, the long and the short of it is that Mr. T does not recommend a weight distributing hitch. Period. It's not a warning against the non-factory hitch that was installed at the port or dealers, but a warning not to use any weight distributing setups. Now if you choose to heed that warning, that's up to you. But you can't pretend that it's perfectly okay to use one when we're specifically told not to.

 

[80t0ylc]

The "standard stock dealer installed receiver" attaches only to the rear crossmember, IIRC. Whereas the Drawtite attaches to both frame rails, plus it adds another rear cross member making it considerably stronger. No way could Mr. T predict or endorse the use of a WD hitch with their design. One of the reasons I chose Kaymar for my bumper. It uses the same mounting holes as the Drawtite.

Yeah, there's those of us that use the "S" part of our SUV. Some of us, though, use both the "S" and "U". And its the ones that use both that appreciate the versatility of the 80. It, by no means is the top sport rig or the top utility rig, but IMHO it is the top SUV.