Tongue weight question

[chiplee]

If it was just my wife and I we'd absolutely go from the 2185 to the 2285. Flipping the sofa to a bed and just having a curtain divider are not ideal. With 3 kids the 2185 triple bunk is really an amazing footprint though.

Lance quality is pretty good. I've still had a few issues - most are just because everyone uses the same Dometic/Atwood/etc parts but there were a couple design issues with their first gen camping trailers.. If someone is looking at a used Lance then join the LOA or PM me and I can give them a few things to look for.

Thanks for the input. We’re actually leaning toward 2185 now. We didn’t know the bathroom door doubled as a bunk house door so that’s arguably a privacy improvement over 2285, and we think we were underestimating how nice it would be to have the sofa and dinette available while the kids are in bed.

 

[chiplee]

If it was just my wife and I we'd absolutely go from the 2185 to the 2285. Flipping the sofa to a bed and just having a curtain divider are not ideal. With 3 kids the 2185 triple bunk is really an amazing footprint though.

Lance quality is pretty good. I've still had a few issues - most are just because everyone uses the same Dometic/Atwood/etc parts but there were a couple design issues with their first gen camping trailers.. If someone is looking at a used Lance then join the LOA or PM me and I can give them a few things to look for.

Also, what do you think of this quote from the Lancaster dealer. He's at 19% off. I'm thinking about skipping their inverter and battery monitor and trying to get him to 22%, or $39500. Factory was shutdown for 3 months so they're all selling before they arrive right now. Not an ideal time to buy.

 

[linuxgod]

Also, what do you think of this quote from the Lancaster dealer. He's at 19% off. I'm thinking about skipping their inverter and battery monitor and trying to get him to 22%, or $39500. Factory was shutdown for 3 months so they're all selling before they arrive right now. Not an ideal time to buy.

My battery monitoring system cost me about $600. Solar panel setup was another ~$800. I don't have an inverter but you can look up the prices - I think they are $500-1000 typically depending on size. Whether you want to pay for these up front and finance them into the cost of the trailer (assuming you're not paying cash) or add them later might depend on whether you'd do the install yourself or have the dealer do it anyway, and what type of camping you do. If you stick to parks which have electric for instance the battery monitor isn't worth the $, but if you're routinely in parks for several days at a time which don't you absolutely want a good one (and solar. and possibly lithium batteries).

When I was looking for my 2185 in Feb 2018 I was negotiating with dealers around the country and it seemed like $37k was about the going bottom rate, though I got prices between $36k and $45k depending on the dealer. Just like a car some dealers are high volume and want to move inventory, others want top dollar. Options obviously matter to price, but in general there were only a few different options I saw vary on most of the build sheets (convertible sofa bed, lift kit). Best price I saw IIRC was out of Yuma, AZ, though there was a place in Nevada that was close.

That said, every dealer is selling everything on their lots this summer, so you might not have as much room to negotiate. I thought the lockdown and economic impact would hit the RV industry hard like it did in '08, but apparently everyone is buying or renting RVs instead of flying.

FWIW I ended up buying a 2015 Lance (3 years old) that was very lightly used for $21,500. It doesn't have the sleek front or frameless glass, but it was $15k+ cheaper and is otherwise near identical.

 

[linuxgod]

@chiplee BTW I doubt they'll remove the inverter or battery monitor as they are likely factory-installed options if you're buying the camper off the lot. What you might opt to do instead if you camp without electric hookups a lot is see if they will install 2 solar panels and a lithium battery for you as part of the deal. The pair of panels is probably $500-600 aftermarket (including hardware) and the battery will be ~$900-1000... but the LiFePO4 batteries allow you to get roughly double the usage and are roughly half the weight.

I also noticed on that spec sheet it's missing the electric tongue jack. I assume that's an oversight since I've never seen a Lance trailer without one, especially if it has electric stabilizers

 

[chiplee]

My battery monitoring system cost me about $600. Solar panel setup was another ~$800. I don't have an inverter but you can look up the prices - I think they are $500-1000 typically depending on size. Whether you want to pay for these up front and finance them into the cost of the trailer (assuming you're not paying cash) or add them later might depend on whether you'd do the install yourself or have the dealer do it anyway, and what type of camping you do. If you stick to parks which have electric for instance the battery monitor isn't worth the $, but if you're routinely in parks for several days at a time which don't you absolutely want a good one (and solar. and possibly lithium batteries).

When I was looking for my 2185 in Feb 2018 I was negotiating with dealers around the country and it seemed like $37k was about the going bottom rate, though I got prices between $36k and $45k depending on the dealer. Just like a car some dealers are high volume and want to move inventory, others want top dollar. Options obviously matter to price, but in general there were only a few different options I saw vary on most of the build sheets (convertible sofa bed, lift kit). Best price I saw IIRC was out of Yuma, AZ, though there was a place in Nevada that was close.

View attachment 2366067

That said, every dealer is selling everything on their lots this summer, so you might not have as much room to negotiate. I thought the lockdown and economic impact would hit the RV industry hard like it did in '08, but apparently everyone is buying or renting RVs instead of flying.

FWIW I ended up buying a 2015 Lance (3 years old) that was very lightly used for $21,500. It doesn't have the sleek front or frameless glass, but it was $15k+ cheaper and is otherwise near identical.

Thanks. I'd love to go used. Even have a friend selling a 2185, but I have myself hung up on the new mountain graphics for some reason. Just fits the LC a little too perfectly. I'll probably pay cash and do any solar/battery work myself. This is Richards, where you're supposed to be able to get the best deal. He's a 19% off. I'll probably tell him I'll do it loaded at 25% off or $43k, or a stripper for 22% off at $39,500. I think they lose margin as you pull options. I'm seeing them listed 1-2 years used on LOA in the high 30s.

I DIY'd a 9.15kw solar PV system on my house, so I understand that aspect somewhat well, and I think I probably prefer flexible panels on the roof (screwless mounting) to the mounts they screw in. There's no way around at least one generator for AC anyway, as I understand it. The biggest lithium setups are netting maybe 6 hours of AC on time? Not that important to me. I honestly think, even boondocking, one lithium, one panel and one honda 2000 with a soft start on the AC would do the trick for us, but I'll probably do 2 panels and batteries anyway.

 

[chiplee]

@chiplee BTW I doubt they'll remove the inverter or battery monitor as they are likely factory-installed options if you're buying the camper off the lot. What you might opt to do instead if you camp without electric hookups a lot is see if they will install 2 solar panels and a lithium battery for you as part of the deal. The pair of panels is probably $500-600 aftermarket (including hardware) and the battery will be ~$900-1000... but the LiFePO4 batteries allow you to get roughly double the usage and are roughly half the weight.

I also noticed on that spec sheet it's missing the electric tongue jack. I assume that's an oversight since I've never seen a Lance trailer without one, especially if it has electric stabilizers

This is an intercept. I'd be taking over the build of a trailer he has inbound. Very few, if any, 2185s are making it to the lot before someone takes over the config and puts down a deposit. I've heard some bad things about the electric jack (assuming it's the same as the "smart" jack) so I was planning to skip it. I can get the panels for $180 each, and they want $800+, and I'd rather have a 2000w inverter.

 

[TeCKis300]

An alternative to the classically retrofitted lithium battery...

Consider an option to augment the onboard battery system with a separate lithium bank, i.e. house vs accessory battery.

I kept my travel trailer flooded lead acid batts (upgraded to high capacity 6V golf car batts). These remain and is plenty of capacity for house functions like water pump, furnace, fans, lights, etc.

Augment with a separate lithium bank to drive the 120V accessories and toys. This way, one is not spending money replacing house capacity. Money is spent directly to expand capacity to support the high draw fun stuff (which is the stuff that actually needs lithium backed power) including coffee maker, instapot,
hairdryer, microwave, etc.

I took it one step further and integrated a standalone Goal Zero Yeti 1000, tied into the house 120V outlets via auto transfer switch. Its built in onboard inverter is powerful (3000W surge, 1500 continuous) and I can leave it on continuously. The monitoring built in is comprehensive. It's also tied into my 400W of rooftop solar that charges both banks simultaneously. It's an easy, cheap, and effective solution.

I have just over 300Ah total. For under $1k. And the Goal Zero is easily removable for when I go car camping or need a backup 120V for the house.

 

[chiplee]

An alternative to the classically retrofitted lithium battery...

Consider an option to augment the onboard battery system with a separate lithium bank, i.e. house vs accessory battery.

I kept my travel trailer flooded lead acid batts (upgraded to high capacity 6V golf car batts). These remain and is plenty of capacity for house functions like water pump, furnace, fans, lights, etc.

Augment with a separate lithium bank to drive the 120V accessories and toys. This way, one is not spending money replacing house capacity. Money spent it directly in addition to support the fun stuff including coffee maker, instapot, TVs, etc.

I took it one step further and integrated a standalone Goal Zero Yeti 1000, tied into the house 120V outlets via auto transfer switch. It's also tied into my 400W of rooftop solar that charges both banks simultaneously. It's an easy, cheap, and effective solution.

I have just over 300Ah total. For under $1k. And the Goal Zero is easily removable for when I go car camping or need a backup 120V for the house.

View attachment 2366336

Very smart. Thanks for the tip. I may PM you for some more details sometime soon. Placed a deposit on a 2185 today.

 

[linuxgod]

This is an intercept. I'd be taking over the build of a trailer he has inbound. Very few, if any, 2185s are making it to the lot before someone takes over the config and puts down a deposit. I've heard some bad things about the electric jack (assuming it's the same as the "smart" jack) so I was planning to skip it. I can get the panels for $180 each, and they want $800+, and I'd rather have a 2000w inverter.

Ah, good plan than.

There was a recall on some jacks on the 2018 model, where they would suddenly extend (which could be really bad while driving).

My Atwood jack just failed on me last trip. I think the trailer rocked back while sitting on the jack and it tweaked the angle slightly. I could get it about 2/3 of the way up but then it would get stuck and wouldn't engage up or down until I manually cranked it *really* hard. I just bought a replacement Stromberg Carlson and am putting it in this weekend.

If you're comfortable doing the panel mounting I'd do it myself as well. On mine I ended up drilling the roof to mount the feet and using well nuts to hold it snug. Then lots of Dicor and a layer of Eternabond on top. But I believe once you start drilling the roof it voids the warranty. If you want any tips on it let me know. I did document my solar setup at 2015 Lance 2185 Solar Installation but I've made a couple improvements since then.

 

[linuxgod]

Thanks. I'd love to go used. Even have a friend selling a 2185, but I have myself hung up on the new mountain graphics for some reason. Just fits the LC a little too perfectly. I'll probably pay cash and do any solar/battery work myself. This is Richards, where you're supposed to be able to get the best deal. He's a 19% off. I'll probably tell him I'll do it loaded at 25% off or $43k, or a stripper for 22% off at $39,500. I think they lose margin as you pull options. I'm seeing them listed 1-2 years used on LOA in the high 30s.

I DIY'd a 9.15kw solar PV system on my house, so I understand that aspect somewhat well, and I think I probably prefer flexible panels on the roof (screwless mounting) to the mounts they screw in. There's no way around at least one generator for AC anyway, as I understand it. The biggest lithium setups are netting maybe 6 hours of AC on time? Not that important to me. I honestly think, even boondocking, one lithium, one panel and one honda 2000 with a soft start on the AC would do the trick for us, but I'll probably do 2 panels and batteries anyway.

I have 2 panels (350W) and I always have plenty of battery so long as there's some sun. I like having 2 because if we get in a wooded campsite where the sun is partial or only overhead for a couple hours we still get a full recharge. The highest draw is the heater if we're camping in the late fall. We don't have an inverter though - if I did and was using it to make coffee, let my wife dry her hair, or run a residential fridge, we probably wouldn't have enough when camping in wooded areas. No generator for us but if I wanted A/C I'd just go that route.

FWIW I had two flexible 100W panels on my old camper which I taped down with Eternabond but having used both I prefer the glass panels. It's very hard to get more than ~50% efficiency out of the flexible panels because the best solar conditions (desert at high noon) also result in the most heat to the roof which reduces their efficiency a lot as there's no airflow below them. Not discouraging you, just telling you what I've seen on my whopping 2 installations

 

[linuxgod]

An alternative to the classically retrofitted lithium battery...

Consider an option to augment the onboard battery system with a separate lithium bank, i.e. house vs accessory battery.

I kept my travel trailer flooded lead acid batts (upgraded to high capacity 6V golf car batts). These remain and is plenty of capacity for house functions like water pump, furnace, fans, lights, etc.

Augment with a separate lithium bank to drive the 120V accessories and toys. This way, one is not spending money replacing house capacity. Money is spent directly to expand capacity to support the high draw fun stuff (which is the stuff that actually needs lithium backed power) including coffee maker, instapot, TVs, etc.

I took it one step further and integrated a standalone Goal Zero Yeti 1000, tied into the house 120V outlets via auto transfer switch. Its built in onboard inverter is powerful (3000W surge, 1500 continuous) and I can leave it on continuously. The monitoring built in is comprehensive. It's also tied into my 400W of rooftop solar that charges both banks simultaneously. It's an easy, cheap, and effective solution.

I have just over 300Ah total. For under $1k. And the Goal Zero is easily removable for when I go car camping or need a backup 120V for the house.

View attachment 2366336

That's an interesting idea. The only advantage to swapping the wet cell would be about 30# of TW, but then I'd need to figure out a cold camping solution to keep the battery warm as they don't like being charged in temps below freezing. This would keep it inside the trailer where the temp is regulated.

How'd you connect it? Is that 110V plus just a pigtail to the converter?

 

[TeCKis300]

Pigtail runs from a 120V 30amp automatic transfer switch which itself is spliced into the main 30amp feed from outside of the trailer. This power trunk runs to the breaker box which distributes power to the rest of the trailer. I have the converter turned off 99% of the time. Solar does all the charging I need. Effectively FLA house batts power the 12V circuits. Lithium aux batt powers the 120V circuits. I can use the converter to top off the house batts from the lithium bank if necessary, but not something I've needed to do outside of testing that it works.

The auto transfer switch operation is seamless as it auto detects and switches between campground power or the lithium batts, to power the whole trailer. It always feels like I'm at a campsite with electric hookups.

 

[linuxgod]

Pigtail runs from a 120V 30amp automatic transfer switch which itself is spliced into the main 30amp feed from outside of the trailer. This power trunk runs to the breaker box which distributes power to the rest of the trailer. I have the converter turned off 99% of the time. Solar does all the charging I need. Effectively FLA house batts power the 12V circuits. Lithium aux batt powers the 120V circuits. I can use the converter to top off the house batts from the lithium bank if necessary, but not something I've needed to do outside of testing that it works.

The auto transfer switch operation is seamless as it auto detects and switches between campground power or the lithium batts, to power the whole trailer. It always feels like I'm at a campsite with electric hookups.

Do you ever run your A/C off the lithium setup? One of the concerns I would have with an ATS is that I was hooked up to shore power and running it but then I lose the circuit (murphy's law says this would happen when I'm not at the camper) and the ATS switches over to the batteries, and then promptly drains them.

 

[TeCKis300]

Short story is no as my high output 15k A/C running amps is just past the capacity of the Goal Zero 1000. I did try for kicks. It handles the surge just fine but the A/C pulls 1580W running watts which is past the 1500W continuous output. Time remaining shows it'll deplete the batts in short order, ~30 minutes.

The ATS has a priority function. It switches to whatever is hot. But if both inputs are hot, I set it up to prioritize external power.

To your point, there's always the remote possibility of the external power going off and it switching to batts. The Goal Zero front panel has a inverter on/off, so I usually switch it off. Funny thing is I rarely use the A/C, and so I rarely even hook up to the power pedestal if there's one as I have plenty of power onboard.

 

[chiplee]

So, now that I went with the 2185 and its 16.5% tongue weight, would you guys recommend a heavy Hensley hitch or just a good quality friction WD hitch and airbags?

Dry tongue weight is 755lbs at 4565lb dry trailer weight, or 16.5% tongue weight. If that percentage holds at gvwr (6000lbs) it’ll be 990lbs on the tongue. I get that there’s tons of space to load the tail of the 2185, but adding a 200lb hitch to the nose seems sketchy. Not to mention this trailer seems manageable enough to skip the $3k expense.

 

[TeCKis300]

This is potentially another one of those religion questions.

From my experience, I would say there's no need for a pivot point projection (PPP) type hitch with the 200-series. Many overreact because there was an inherent setup problem with their rig. Which is fair as being new, it's hard to know what to look for. But so long as you do your due diligence in setting up - get your ball as close and tight to your tow rig as possible (minor inches matter!). Dial in enough weight distribution tension. Proper weight loading in trailer.

Propride is next generation to Hensley btw. I wouldn't deny PPPs are superior in the way they mitigate sway. They do however come with some not insignificant drawbacks.

Cons:
1) Longer hitch adds to rig length
2) Weight (but not necessarily in hitch weight as it's partially mitigated by the length that puts more of the trailer weight onto it's own axles)
3) Reversing agility (responds slower to steering inputs)
4) Non-standard stinger/hitch (if you were to experience a problem on the road, this could add to complexities and logistics)
5) Unhitch and hitch up challenges that require tow vehicle and trailer to be very close to the same plane. (this one is a deal breaker for me. Ball hitches don't care and can drop on and off at odd angles which is much better for off-camber or off-road situations)
6) Bigger contraptions hanging off tow vehicle and trailer (don't kick it, your shin will loose)
7) Cost

 

[linuxgod]

Short story is no as my high output 15k A/C running amps is just past the capacity of the Goal Zero 1000. I did try for kicks. It handles the surge just fine but the A/C pulls 1580W running watts which is past the 1500W continuous output. Time remaining shows it'll deplete the batts in short order, ~30 minutes.

The ATS has a priority function. It switches to whatever is hot. But if both inputs are hot, I set it up to prioritize external power.

To your point, there's always the remote possibility of the external power going off and it switching to batts. The Goal Zero front panel has a inverter on/off, so I usually switch it off. Funny thing is I rarely use the A/C, and so I rarely even hook up to the power pedestal if there's one as I have plenty of power onboard.

Thanks.

We rarely use the A/C as well, unless we're camped in the desert (and in our case at an RV park, since I don't have a generator). Not that I love to sweat, I just have an objection to the noise when we've gone through all the effort to find a quiet spot.

 

[chiplee]

Just sharing an update on what I ended up with in the Lance since this convo migrated to solar/lithium, etc.. Not depicted in the diagram, I ended up with 510W of solar on the roof, and the 110V side of the inverter is handled by a GoPower TS-30 automatic transfer switch. Stock converter is retained since it has a lithium charge profile, but it now gets its power from the "shore-in" terminals in the transfer switch to avoid "battery powered battery charging."

It's all stuffed under the fridge and working great. With some rework on the shelf, I'll be able to get a 3rd battery under there, but this could very well be my final configuration. It runs the entire rig, with almost unlimited refrigerator run time when the sun is up, which will be nice for transit. It only runs the AC for about 90 minutes, but it wasn't really built for that anyway. That might come in handy on particularly hot evenings after generator quiet hours or something. The output of the xfer switch is the new input to the stock power center, and switching between shore/gen and inverter is automatic with shore/gen as priority. All 110V items in the rig have inverter power and my 110V needs (minus AC) are fully met for night hours. Batts can be charged at up to 90A on shore or generator power, 60A converter and 30A solar. I expect it to cut my generator run time in less than half in hot weather and almost to zero in nice weather.

 

[Dan Higgins]

Wow! You guys are impressive with all of your mods and the associated engineering. Very cool. I will never need all of that. But I will say that we continue to enjoy towing with our LC200 (2016). First a 2017 2285. That floorplan has been around for quite a while but in 2017 it had a GVWR of 6000, not the current 6400. We sold that and purchased a 2020.5 1995 (from Richards where we definitely got the best deal even after paying them to have it towed to us in Oregon - this was about a month into the pandemic). We loved the 2285 but just didn't need the space. And we love the 1995 not only because it fits us but also because Lance did a number of minor but very useful improvements since our first Lance trailer. (There are only 2 of us so the 1995 we just don't "need" the additional space). Our running tongue weights based on ODOT scales and confirmed with a Sherline scale were 900# for the 2285 and are now 700# for the 1995 (which has a significantly lower dry tongue weight). We use a ProPride P3 hitch with 1000# bars. With the WD bar leverage dialed in we have all four LC wheels at 21" hub-to-fender. Without a trailer they are at 21.5-22" rear depending on cargo load and 21" front. So front is back to "normal" height and rear is down an inch. (I have the ARB OME progressive springs so they provide more "stiffness" as they "sink"). The trailer came with factory solar. I kept my 120AmpH AGM battery from my old trailer but may upgrade to Lithium next season. That said, I don't expect to do long term boon docking so if we can get 3-4 nights we are good to go.

If you are interested, here

 

[TeCKis300]

Wow! You guys are impressive with all of your mods and the associated engineering. Very cool. I will never need all of that. But I will say that we continue to enjoy towing with our LC200 (2016). First a 2017 2285. That floorplan has been around for quite a while but in 2017 it had a GVWR of 6000, not the current 6400. We sold that and purchased a 2020.5 1995 (from Richards where we definitely got the best deal even after paying them to have it towed to us in Oregon - this was about a month into the pandemic). We loved the 2285 but just didn't need the space. And we love the 1995 not only because it fits us but also because Lance did a number of minor but very useful improvements since our first Lance trailer. (There are only 2 of us so the 1995 we just don't "need" the additional space). Our running tongue weights based on ODOT scales and confirmed with a Sherline scale were 900# for the 2285 and are now 700# for the 1995 (which has a significantly lower dry tongue weight). We use a ProPride P3 hitch with 1000# bars. With the WD bar leverage dialed in we have all four LC wheels at 21" hub-to-fender. Without a trailer they are at 21.5-22" rear depending on cargo load and 21" front. So front is back to "normal" height and rear is down an inch. (I have the ARB OME progressive springs so they provide more "stiffness" as they "sink"). The trailer came with factory solar. I kept my 120AmpH AGM battery from my old trailer but may upgrade to Lithium next season. That said, I don't expect to do long term boon docking so if we can get 3-4 nights we are good to go.

If you are interested, here
View attachment 2478543

Nice dataset you have there. Always great to have hard data to support dialing in the rig.

If I may recommend - your latter 5/4 and 9/25 data shows perhaps too much WD tension. Generally, the goal for most setups is Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR) in the 50% range. Enough WD tension for stability, while leaving enough compliance for hitch articulation without undue stress.

50% FALR would mean the front axle weight should measure halfway between trailer on without WD applied and no trailer at all. We know your front axle measures 3350 lbs without trailer. Properly setup WD tension should be under that. What you're showing on the latter 5/4 data is 100% FALR. 9/25 over 100% FALR. That would mean really high WD tension, torsional forces that should be avoided as it has the potential to greatly stress tow vehicle, hitch, and trailer structures. Especially over dips and transitions, because ultimately, a hitch needs to articulate.

Your earlier 5/4 data setup looks ideal. Perhaps a tad more WD tension but not to the degree of the latter adjustment. More WD may feel more stable with less porpoising on the highway, but proper setup has always been a compromise.