Tongue weight question (3 Viewers)

[chiplee]

Nice dataset you have there. Always great to have hard data to support dialing in the rig.

If I may recommend - your latter 5/4 and 9/25 data shows perhaps too much WD tension. Generally, the goal for most setups is Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR) in the 50% range. Enough WD tension for stability, while leaving enough compliance for hitch articulation without undue stress.

50% FALR would mean the front axle weight should measure halfway between trailer on without WD applied and no trailer at all. We know your front axle measures 3350 lbs without trailer. Properly setup WD tension should be under that. What you're showing on the latter 5/4 data is 100% FALR. 9/25 over 100% FALR. That would mean really high WD tension, torsional forces that should be avoided as it has the potential to greatly stress tow vehicle, hitch, and trailer structures. Especially over dips and transitions, because ultimately, a hitch needs to articulate.

Your earlier 5/4 data setup looks ideal. Perhaps a tad more WD tension but not to the degree of the latter adjustment. More WD may feel more stable with less porpoising on the highway, but proper setup has always been a compromise.

I think that's accurate and explained well, but it is worth noting that it doesn't exactly square with the 200 owner's manual. By stating that a weight distribution hitch should be used to return the front axle weight or fender height to the weight/height it had before the trailer was connected, it suggests more like 100% FALR. WDH manuals do tend to square with your thinking here though, so I'd side with that over the Toyota manual. I really don't like leaving front axle weight on the rear axle WITH my already heavy tongue weight though.

I did take a good bit of weight off the tongue with this under-fridge install though, and I carry a Predator 3500 in the bunk house, which is ~100lbs of "tongue lift". 2185 has 16.5% tongue weight dry, so I'm looking forward to getting weights with this new setup to see where I am. Hoping I can actually carry water, lol.

 

[TeCKis300]

I think that's accurate and explained well, but it is worth noting that it doesn't exactly square with the 200 owner's manual. By stating that a weight distribution hitch should be used to return the front axle weight or fender height to the weight/height it had before the trailer was loaded, it suggests more like 100% FALR. WDH manuals do tend to square with your thinking here though, so I'd side with that over the Toyota manual. I really don't like leaving front axle weight on the rear axle WITH my already heavy tongue weight though.

I did take a good bit of weight off the tongue with this under-fridge install though, and I carry a Predator 3500 in the bunk house, which is ~100lbs of "tongue lift". 2185 has 16.5% tongue weight dry, so I'm looking forward to getting weights with this new setup to see where I am. Hoping to can actually carry water, lol.

Agreed and it is true the manual asks for close to 100% FALR. Thanks for pointing that out and I too would lean towards the vehicle manual as a recommendation for most typical setups. I however would also temper that with overall rig setup, individual needs, and driving styles.

What I'm saying is there are several dials that can be turned for stability. Hitch setup, hitch type, WD tension, is just some of it. A PPP hitch inherently creates more stability by virtue of design and geometry. As it compensates for sway in other ways, the WD dial should be able to be turned down to allow for more relaxed rig articulation. Other major dials that you touched on is weight balance of the trailer. Hitch ball distance to rear axle. Tire Pressure. Etc. Each can be used to compensate for overall stability, without over applying one or another to the extent it may create compromises.

My preference is to use as much WD as needed, and as little as necessary. As I do like to wander off the highway, hitch articulation is also a priority. I find that the 200-series to be imminently stable at 50% FALR to high speeds when other things are setup right. Otherwise, I would suggest that others with typical setups follow the manual.

 

[Dan Higgins]

Nice dataset you have there. Always great to have hard data to support dialing in the rig.

If I may recommend - your latter 5/4 and 9/25 data shows perhaps too much WD tension. Generally, the goal for most setups is Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR) in the 50% range. Enough WD tension for stability, while leaving enough compliance for hitch articulation without undue stress.

50% FALR would mean the front axle weight should measure halfway between trailer on without WD applied and no trailer at all. We know your front axle measures 3350 lbs without trailer. Properly setup WD tension should be under that. What you're showing on the latter 5/4 data is 100% FALR. 9/25 over 100% FALR. That would mean really high WD tension, torsional forces that should be avoided as it has the potential to greatly stress tow vehicle, hitch, and trailer structures. Especially over dips and transitions, because ultimately, a hitch needs to articulate.

Your earlier 5/4 data setup looks ideal. Perhaps a tad more WD tension but not to the degree of the latter adjustment. More WD may feel more stable with less porpoising on the highway, but proper setup has always been a compromise.

Thanks. Good suggestion. I was aware of the 50% FALR recommendation. I am still fiddling with the WD bar tension. I have actually been using 5.5" for the two trips we did in October. It felt better but I haven't measured it at that height. (My wife is getting a bit tired of me stopping at every ODOT scale we pass!) What you don't see between the May measurements and the one I did in September is that I had changed the angle of the "stinger" in the ProPride to a more level angle. (I had also raised the stinger as the height of the tongue on our new trailer is a couple of inches higher - we had the trailer lifted 2.5"). Because the stinger is at less of a downward angle I need to raise the WD bar ends just a bit more to get the same leverage. Still dialing that in. Oh, and the one downside of having all of these ODOT scales in Oregon is that they only show weights in 50# increments. . But they sure are convenient!

One more thought. We don't normally run with a full fresh water tank. The first measurement in my table was with the FWT full as we were sanitizing it. When we do put water in the FWT it will be ahead of the axle. At that point I may raise the WD bars to 6" rather than the normal 5.5". The nice thing is due to the tongue weight being 200# lower than our previous trailer I can run those WD bars at 5.5" rather than the 7.5-8" I was before.

 

[TeCKis300]

It would only be fair if I shared my trial and errors as well. I had my rig pretty dialed in - until I decided to mess with it again. Did a mild suspension (sensor) lift. .75" front, .5" rear. Not only did this change the height of the hitch and effect WD bar tension, it also changed the attitude/down angle of the WD bars, and attitude/level of the trailer. Did this right before a trip that included some off-road side trips where I wanted the additional lift. Didn't get to dial it in.

Out of adjustment, with probably only 25% FALR, and well over the 4300 lb rear axle GAWR. 1200 miles. Still plenty stable but I could tell the rig was looser which is what prompted me to visit a scale in route.

I have have since upgraded again from 33s to 35s. Need to lower hitch head and the drop bar doesn't have any further downward adjustment holes. Welding a section in that I had previously cut off the horizontal part to help the hitch sit further into the receiver. Still need to drill a new .75" hole here.

The fun of dialing it all in again.

Should also note that those with LXs. Definitely don't want to dial in anywhere near 100% FALR at rest. AHC suspension will lower ~1" at over 60mph. This has the effect of dynamically increased WD tension. Which works nicely as higher speeds is when additional sway stability is necessary.

 

[chiplee]

Wow, you must have a hell of a welder and a high level of confidence with it to go to the trouble to weld and drill that drop shank vice buying a new one. What are they, $90?

 

[TeCKis300]

Wow, you must have a hell of a welder and a high level of confidence with it to go to the trouble to weld and drill that drop shank vice buying a new one. What are they, $90?

It was more because I had already modified the hitch to bring the ball closer into the rear bumper. Sliced off a section so that it could seat all the way in without contacting the spare tire. And drilled a another hole for the hitch pin. Anything I buy off the shelf, would need to same modification again.

I have a welder and tools to extend the drop hitch so it wasn't a big deal. Beveled the mating surfaces and TIG'd together with several high powered passes to get proper penetration. Though really the section I welded in is not critical as the new hole is still within the original section before the weld. The extended section just adds clamping surface.

Got it all rebuilt and refreshed with paint and new grease. Ball torqued to 430 ft-lbs, bars to 60 ft-lbs. Ready for another season.

 

[linuxgod]

@TeCKis300 Man that's a lot of weight on the rear axle. And here I was worried as I was approaching 5000#

I'm a fan of trying to recover 100% front axle weight. I've never achieved it though. The TW on my Lance is just too heavy so even with the WD bars at full tension I can't get 100% back.

I have found recently that when people pass me too closely at a high rate of speed (i.e. I'm doing 70, and some guy passes me at 90) that they will force some sway in my trailer, which will cause me to wiggle. I'm thinking it's tire pressure-related but you've reminded me to get on a scale and confirm

 

[ramangain]

New to the thread, shopping a 200 to replace my 100 for towing a large/heavy trailer.

I see it mentioned that the 200 LX AHC lowers the rear at speed (60-ish mph). Is this all years of 200s? I use a popular Husky WDH with 1000lb bars. On my 100 the WDH is set to set the rear height bang on to N ride height and it drives wonderfully (minus the lack of power). It makes the Airlift rear air bladders to support the rear springs irrelevant.

On the 200, is there a way to set AHC height for "highway speed" via Techstream to set the proper WDH heights?

 

[chiplee]

It was more because I had already modified the hitch to bring the ball closer into the rear bumper. Sliced off a section so that it could seat all the way in without contacting the spare tire. And drilled a another hole for the hitch pin. Anything I buy off the shelf, would need to same modification again.

I have a welder and tools to extend the drop hitch so it wasn't a big deal. Beveled the mating surfaces and TIG'd together with several high powered passes to get proper penetration. Though really the section I welded in is not critical as the new hole is still within the original section before the weld. The extended section just adds clamping surface.

Got it all rebuilt and refreshed with paint and new grease. Ball torqued to 430 ft-lbs, bars to 60 ft-lbs. Ready for another season.

View attachment 2479359

Nice backdrop. Looks like a happy Equalizer.

 

[TeCKis300]

@linuxgod - Yes, my trailer is heavy @8000lbs and 1200lbs tongue. Fully laden propane, gas (with 12.5 gallon aux), water, bikes, and food, ready for a weeklong trip. I'm over GCWR and will be over rear GAWR even with WD appropriately dialed in. Which is why I pre-emptively refreshed the rear axle bearings at 120,000miles. They were still smooth and tight at that mileage and my hope is that the robust nature of the 200-series will allow it to reliably bear the load.

With WD dialed in, I should able to bring the balance to a more reasonable 3300 lbs front, 4700 lbs rear, and 6900 trailer axles. I increase tire pressures 5-8 psi higher when in tow to stiffen the sidewalls for stability.

Do you have a pic of your hitch setup? I'd bet if you did the drop hitch mod to bring the ball in closer to the rear bumper, that it would be the magic trick you're looking for. It would effectively drive like it had 3-5" more wheelbase, would show better FALR with less tension, and quell any high speed sway.

@ramangain , I believe AHC lowering at speed is true for all 200-series. The behavior and transition points are all hard coded so can't really be changed. I have my trailer statically level as well. I have 20mm spring spacers at the rear but those go more to help the slight sensor lift. Even at these ugly rear axle weights, AHC has been up to the task.

 

[ramangain]

Thanks for the graph @TeCKis300

The 15mm drop isn't bad. More than likely on most WDHs, Normal and Normal 2 ride heights probably fall in between two adjustment points on setting the ball height. Works for me!

Now, the decision for me falls to LX with infuriating mouse control, lower max tow rating, but better ride quality vs LC.

 

[Dan Higgins]

I think what @TeCKis300 meant to say is that, "AHC lowering at speed is true for all LX 200-series". Us poor LC owners don't have that fancy AHC. But then again, we don't need to figure out how to control a mouse. (I have had a couple of smaller Lexus's in the past and though I got along OK with the mouse it just felt unnecessary and that the space it occupies could have served a better purpose. But that discussion is for a different thread).

 

[ramangain]

I've had AHC on my 100 series for a long time and have maintained it religiously. It is a marvelous system. Whether or not it can offset the LX rodent issue, along with the lower tow rating, is my Q de jour.

To be clear, is the lower tow rating of the LX due to AHC only? If so, a proper WDH should be able to negate the difference, all other things being equal.

 

[TeCKis300]

I've had AHC on my 100 series for a long time and have maintained it religiously. It is a marvelous system. Whether or not it can offset the LX rodent issue, along with the lower tow rating, is my Q de jour.

To be clear, is the lower tow rating of the LX due to AHC only? If so, a proper WDH should be able to negate the difference, all other things being equal.

Curious what the rodent issue is?

The lower rating is primarily due to the common 200-series chassis GVWR 7,385 lbs. The LX curb weight is upwards of 300-500lbs heavier than the LC due to additional accouterments. These subtract certain capacities, including the lower tow rating.

There are those on the boards that own both LC and LX. And have towed their trailers with both. This is teasing at details but some have commented that they prefer to tow with the LX, despite higher stated tow capacities on the LC. At the loads some of us are at, most LC owners would generally agree that a suspension upgrade would be recommended. Whereas the stock AHC system is still up to task.

I don't think you can go wrong with either as both are similarly competent 200-series. Dramatically improved from my experience towing with the 100-series.

 

[linuxgod]

Do you have a pic of your hitch setup? I'd bet if you did the drop hitch mod to bring the ball in closer to the rear bumper, that it would be the magic trick you're looking for. It would effectively drive like it had 3-5" more wheelbase, would show better FALR with less tension, and quell any high speed sway.

No pics handy with a close up. I think I have the same drop shank as you, just a tad longer (well not anymore I guess...) I could shorten the shaft a couple inches maybe. The thought has crossed my mind, though I've also toyed with a rear bumper with swingouts eventually and I'm not sure if I pull the trailer inward any more if I'd be able to get a swingout to open without hitting the jack

 

[ramangain]

The rodent issue I was referring to is the mouse control. I had a chance to sit in a 19 LX this morning while simultaneously checking out a new LC. I think I could live with the mouse control, and the ML sound system is a definitive upgrade over the JBL LC system.

If the consensus is that, in reality, the LX is at least equivalent to the LC in terms of real world towing capacity and functionality, then the LX makes more sense for me as I'm spoiled by AHC already. I'm looking at towing a tad over 7K when the enclosed trailer is fully loaded. My 01 LX handled it, barely, with a WDH, so I'd anticipate the 200 can handle it without breaking a sweat.

 

[pakjoe]

Looking for some constructive ideas and feedback on my set up. I have a 2015 LX 570 pulling a 23' Airstream (International Serenity) using an Equalizer WDH. I can add one more washer to the Equalizer and am hoping that would be enough to push some more weight to the front axle. Ideas or experience with a similar set up? I would prefer to use the Equalizer and avoid buying a different WDH at this time. Related question - how difficult is it to remove the jump seats in the back? Thanks in advance for your help.

Without the trailer hooked up the CAT scale measured:

Steer Axle 3440
Drive Axle 3520
Gross Weight 6960

Unloaded LX and trailer:

Steer Axle 2900
Drive Axle 4400
Trailer Axle 4300
Gross Weight 11600

Fully loaded with trailer hooked up:

Steer Axle 2960
Drive Axle 4500
Trailer Axle 4500
Gross Weight 11960

 

[linuxgod]

Unloaded your tongue weight looks low to me. Also it's moving a LOT of weight from the front to the rear axle (enough that I believe you're over the LC/LX rear axle weight rating):

• 2900 + 4400 = 7300# vehicle GWVR including trailer tongue.
• Trailer tongue weight is 7300 - 6960 = 340#
• Trailer is 4300 + 340 = 4640#

Loaded is harder to calculate since I assume it means your vehicle is loaded as well as the trailer. You'd really need a vehicle loaded weight without the trailer to do the math, but if I assume for a minute that your vehicle is the same but the trailer is what's fully loaded then

• 2960 + 4500 = 7460# vehicle GVWR
• 7460 - 6960 = 500# tongue weight
• Trailer is 4500 + 500 = 5000# GWVR

Ok now for my thoughts on your setup:

1. Tongue weight should be 8-15% of trailer weight, typically. I normally run in the 12-15% range but I have a fairly heavy trailer. In your first setup the tongue weight is low: 8% would be 371# and that's the minimum, but you're at 340#. You really want to be closer to 500# I believe.
2. You're shifting a LOT of weight off the steer axle. This actually concerns me more than your tongue weight. You need more weight distribution in your setup, to shift weight off the bumper and back to the front axle. If you have an Equalizer hitch already, you need to crank up the amount of WD. I'm also not sure what bars you have but you may need stiffer ones if they are only 500# bars since you'll get more WD out of thicker bars. I have a BlueOx with 1000# bars and I run at the highest setting - that's overkill for you but for me it works.
3. I don't know the GVWR of your trailer but I'm going to assume it's at or above 5000#
4. Your weight and the distribution will change as you add/remove water from the fresh, gray, and black tanks, so keep that in mind.

 

[pakjoe]

Unloaded your tongue weight looks low to me. Also it's moving a LOT of weight from the front to the rear axle (enough that I believe you're over the LC/LX rear axle weight rating):

• 2900 + 4400 = 7300# vehicle GWVR including trailer tongue.
• Trailer tongue weight is 7300 - 6960 = 340#
• Trailer is 4300 + 340 = 4640#

Loaded is harder to calculate since I assume it means your vehicle is loaded as well as the trailer. You'd really need a vehicle loaded weight without the trailer to do the math, but if I assume for a minute that your vehicle is the same but the trailer is what's fully loaded then

• 2960 + 4500 = 7460# vehicle GVWR
• 7460 - 6960 = 500# tongue weight
• Trailer is 4500 + 500 = 5000# GWVR

Ok now for my thoughts on your setup:

1. Tongue weight should be 8-15% of trailer weight, typically. I normally run in the 12-15% range but I have a fairly heavy trailer. In your first setup the tongue weight is low: 8% would be 371# and that's the minimum, but you're at 340#. You really want to be closer to 500# I believe.
2. You're shifting a LOT of weight off the steer axle. This actually concerns me more than your tongue weight. You need more weight distribution in your setup, to shift weight off the bumper and back to the front axle. If you have an Equalizer hitch already, you need to crank up the amount of WD. I'm also not sure what bars you have but you may need stiffer ones if they are only 500# bars since you'll get more WD out of thicker bars. I have a BlueOx with 1000# bars and I run at the highest setting - that's overkill for you but for me it works.
3. I don't know the GVWR of your trailer but I'm going to assume it's at or above 5000#
4. Your weight and the distribution will change as you add/remove water from the fresh, gray, and black tanks, so keep that in mind.

Thanks for your reply. Appreciate it.

Looking back, that "unloaded" weight was actually the LX with gear loaded (we only take 200-250 lbs tops in the LX cargo area). I recall the fresh water was full when we weighed it. Normally I would only fill it 1/4 for use on the road.

The problem remains as you state - too much on the rear axle and not enough on the front. The Equalizer has 1,000 lb bars so adding a washer and maybe adjusting the L brackets higher will accomplish what I'm trying to do (move 250 lbs to the front).

The trailer specs are:
Base Weight
4761
Carrying Capacity
1239
Hitch Weight
720

 

[TeCKis300]

Equalizer with 1k bars is perfect and you just need a bit of adjustment. Adding 1 washer to the Equalizer hitch for a bit more down angle should just about put you where you want to be. That will create more tension in the WD bars to bring back a bit more Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR). 2 washers may be okay but possibly too much. The LX also lowers at 65MPH which will effectively tension the WD bars further just when you want it at higher speeds. But maintains a better balance of articulation at lower speeds.

Another thing you could do @pakjoe , is potentially modify your drop hitch to bring the ball closer and tighter to the bumper. This will give less leverage to the trailer to move weight rearward. Improving WD transfer, sway, and porpoising. If you're interested, take a side profile picture of the hitch setup and post here. I use the same Equalizer 1k hitch in my setup.