FrazzledHunter
SILVER Star
So just how DOES one get their towing vehicle "re-rated"? 
Tongue weight question
- Thread starter chiplee
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.
- Thread starter
- #23
Yeah, it's a real head scratcher, but I'm not sure that's quite right. What you're describing is very much how it "seems" so I'm more than open to the possibility that I'm still just not getting it. It could also be a matter of semantics to some extent. Without a WD hitch, I think the weight on the hitch ball has a long moment arm behind the rear axle and simply counterbalances the weight on the front axle with leverage. WD hitches move some hitch weight over the rear axle, removing the leverage and letting down the front of the tow vehicle, just like the "teeter totter" example you gave. I don't think a WD hitch could ever cause weight on the tow vehicle's front axle to actually "increase" or be higher than it was before the trailer was hooked up. In the attached picture, there are two ways the boy on the left can let is friend down. One is rude (hopping off), and the other is by moving toward the center of the seesaw. Moving toward the center is the WD hitch approach. In either case, the boy on the right doesn't get "heavier." The boy on the left just loses leverage to lift him.
Last edited:
You're not wrong.
Weight, tension, force, doesn't really matter what we call it... applied to a moment arm translates into an opposite force at the other end.
Right that WD bars act upon the hitch ball itself as the the fulcrum. By pulling up on the WD bars at the the trailer tongue, it's projecting force/weight towards the front of the vehicle. (and some back to the trailer axles)
So there's two levers at play, acting upon and balancing the overall system.
From a system point of view, from the perspective of the individual axles on the vehicle, the weight is indeed projected forward. The effect can be measured on a scale. The WD hitch can project weight so far as to fully restore weight taken off the front axle, and beyond. Not recommended as the torsional forces on the vehicle structure would be ridiculous. Especially traversing dips and such. Most vehicles want to be in the area of 50% FALR. Restoring front axle weight in and of itself helps stability as it restores front axle traction and influence upon the articulated vehicle
- Thread starter
- #25
Very interesting. Do you have any examples of front axle weight going up after WD hitch install? I can't see how that's possible, at least not with a properly sized WD hitch. I think the previously posted video kind of shows that's not happening in their setup.
The bottom setup in the attached image is with airbags only, and you can see that rear axle weight went up by almost exactly tongue weight (1000lbs ) plus the amount that the front axle weight went down (355lbs). Total rear axle weight went up by 1360lbs. Front axle weight was transferred to the rear axle with the leveraged trailer tongue weight. Weight applied directly over the rear axle wouldn't do this, which is why you counteract that kind of weight with airbags, and counteract tongue weight with WD hitches.
Then in the top example, the front axle is "almost" restored to its pre-loading weight. This jives with my theory that tongue weight can never make it forward of the first pivot point it reaches, which is the rear axle, or at least that the goal of WD hitches is never to do more than return front weight to the front where it belongs. Only weight that had been transferred off the front axle to the rear can be or should be returned to the front with a WD hitch.
Interestingly, a similar amount, 365lbs, is also transferred aft to the trailer's axles, but gross combined weight has gone up 140lbs from the airbag config, probably from the weight of the WD hitch. Airbag GCW equals the total of the pre-hitched separate weights, but the WD hitch GCW is greater than the sum of the parts by 140lbs. More on that later.
I'll say the same thing with different words to see if I can get to an "ah hah moment" in my foggy brain here. Without the WD hitch, the tow vehicle's rear axle is carrying the trailer's tongue weight AND some weight that has been transferred aft from the front axle via one of the 6 simple machines; a lever. A WD hitch applies torque across the tow-vehicle-to-trailer connection to oppose the down force of the trailer, but the pivot point for that upward force is at the ball. The downward force on the whole hitch still remains the same, but it is now countered by strong springs pushing up to straighten the "V" back into a line. Total force on the tow ball probably increases, but is now partly squeezing force vice being all downforce. The whole goal is simply to get the front axle weight to rest back where it belongs, which is why it doesn't "reduce" tongue weight but instead "distributes" it through the frames.
What matters in all of this is whether it's safe to interpret it to mean that our 810lb non-WD hitch rating is what's safe when that full 810lbs is allowed to lift the front axle and probably transfer about 400lbs of front end weight to the rear axle, and our 1230lb WD hitch rating is what's safe when the front axle has its "pre-trailer" weight on it (or almost its pre-trailer weight). In both cases, the rear axle is handling ~1200 extra lbs.
Last edited:
Ok here is real world data
2018 Lx 570 with a 2019 25fb international
The international has a GVWR of 7300lbs
The LX570 per the door jam sticker GVWR is 7395
GCWR with trailer and LX is 13,400, Front axle rating with the 21” tires and rims 3595 front axles and 4300 rear axle.
i have 20” rims with d-rated tires with max pressure if I recall can take over 11,000 lbs so my tires are fine. I did the spring spacers to help increase spring rate as teckis300 did, took out the rear seats so my suv is 100 lbs lighter so I can put in an extra 100lbs in the suv. Understand I have a pro pride hitch with rock tamers, both components weigh in a whopping 270lbs and I also have 6volts golf cart batteries that weigh in at 79lbs each. And 200 ways of solar in the front, So my tongue weight is through the roof.
1st snap shot of the cat scale weigh in. Just the LX no gear in it “ Just the wife and 3 kids all under 7. This is the numbers on both axles.
Steer axle 3420 lbs
Drive axle 3320 lbs
Gross weight 6,740 lbs
2nd snap shot of the cat scale weigh in. The LX no gear just wife and kids. The airstream totally empty just picked it up. This is set up from airstream, they couldn’t set it up right because AHC kept throwing them off and they where like “ yeah man it’s level dude it’s spot on from when you didn’t have it hitched up to when it’s hitched up. It’s pretty much perfect” what they didn’t understand is the ahc just pumped up the back to make it level. Not proper weight distribution Drive axle only 3060 lbs should be 3420 lbs
Steer axle 3060 lbs
Drive axle 4800 lbs
Trailer axle 5100 lbs
3rd snap shot cat scale weigh in. Called pro pride and talked with them, he told me to crank up the jacks to 8 1/2” I have 1,400 lbs weight distribution bars. Re weighed Still wife and kids no gear, airstream totally empty
Steer axle 3340 lbs
Drive axle 4420 lbs
Trailer 5200lbs
4th snap shot of the cat scale weigh in, 100% loaded, water tank 50% full, both propane tanks 100% full, golf batteries in, fridge and freezer 100% full, another 300lbs worth of food and drinks, arb 63 quart fridge in the airstream full guessing another 100lbs, goal zero 1000 in the airstream, 2 inflatable paddle boards, bike hitch installed, 100% loaded and camp ready, in fact more than I would usually do. Weight distribution bars jacked up to 9 1/2” pretty much maxed out. Note the LX only has passengers no gear in it at all no back seats, saving all my payload for hitch weight.
Steer axles 3340 lbs
only 80lbs off from initial weigh in with only the LX wife and kids no gear.
Drive axles 4320 lbs
only 20 lbs over max axles rating but I have D tires on 20s
Trailer axle 6060 we are good here
This trailer was loaded to the max and I usually don’t load it that way next time we are out camping and actually drive by a cat scale I will weigh again.
in conclusion we are pretty much maxed out with the airstream LX Combo. That being said sleeping in the trailer over 30 days towing with the propride is a breeze we have camped at 10,000 feet elevation down to 4,200 feet elevation the LX pulls it good, I am 110% sold on the propride the towing experience is 100% pleasant but I give 70% credit to the hitch and 30% to the LX, if you keep the LX from 3,000-4,500 rpms while climbing it will do fine, below that range and it’s winded. I watch how I load and have taken a lot out of the trailer to lighten the load. I never load up as much s*** as my heaviest weigh in, I just wanted to see what the max weight would be, I believe you can be within range but must be cognizant of how and what you load. Pulling this combo I am so in love with it. We go back and forth about buying a gmc Denali HD 2500 and just feel like while we can load canoes, paddle boards bikes and everything in the world on a truck that has 3600lbs of payload might be nice. But the truck is big as hell and driving around town IMO would suck ass...
Well I hope that helps
2018 Lx 570 with a 2019 25fb international
The international has a GVWR of 7300lbs
The LX570 per the door jam sticker GVWR is 7395
GCWR with trailer and LX is 13,400, Front axle rating with the 21” tires and rims 3595 front axles and 4300 rear axle.
i have 20” rims with d-rated tires with max pressure if I recall can take over 11,000 lbs so my tires are fine. I did the spring spacers to help increase spring rate as teckis300 did, took out the rear seats so my suv is 100 lbs lighter so I can put in an extra 100lbs in the suv. Understand I have a pro pride hitch with rock tamers, both components weigh in a whopping 270lbs and I also have 6volts golf cart batteries that weigh in at 79lbs each. And 200 ways of solar in the front, So my tongue weight is through the roof.
1st snap shot of the cat scale weigh in. Just the LX no gear in it “ Just the wife and 3 kids all under 7. This is the numbers on both axles.
Steer axle 3420 lbs
Drive axle 3320 lbs
Gross weight 6,740 lbs
2nd snap shot of the cat scale weigh in. The LX no gear just wife and kids. The airstream totally empty just picked it up. This is set up from airstream, they couldn’t set it up right because AHC kept throwing them off and they where like “ yeah man it’s level dude it’s spot on from when you didn’t have it hitched up to when it’s hitched up. It’s pretty much perfect” what they didn’t understand is the ahc just pumped up the back to make it level. Not proper weight distribution Drive axle only 3060 lbs should be 3420 lbs
Steer axle 3060 lbs
Drive axle 4800 lbs
Trailer axle 5100 lbs
3rd snap shot cat scale weigh in. Called pro pride and talked with them, he told me to crank up the jacks to 8 1/2” I have 1,400 lbs weight distribution bars. Re weighed Still wife and kids no gear, airstream totally empty
Steer axle 3340 lbs
Drive axle 4420 lbs
Trailer 5200lbs
4th snap shot of the cat scale weigh in, 100% loaded, water tank 50% full, both propane tanks 100% full, golf batteries in, fridge and freezer 100% full, another 300lbs worth of food and drinks, arb 63 quart fridge in the airstream full guessing another 100lbs, goal zero 1000 in the airstream, 2 inflatable paddle boards, bike hitch installed, 100% loaded and camp ready, in fact more than I would usually do. Weight distribution bars jacked up to 9 1/2” pretty much maxed out. Note the LX only has passengers no gear in it at all no back seats, saving all my payload for hitch weight.
Steer axles 3340 lbs
only 80lbs off from initial weigh in with only the LX wife and kids no gear.
Drive axles 4320 lbs
only 20 lbs over max axles rating but I have D tires on 20s
Trailer axle 6060 we are good here
This trailer was loaded to the max and I usually don’t load it that way next time we are out camping and actually drive by a cat scale I will weigh again.
in conclusion we are pretty much maxed out with the airstream LX Combo. That being said sleeping in the trailer over 30 days towing with the propride is a breeze we have camped at 10,000 feet elevation down to 4,200 feet elevation the LX pulls it good, I am 110% sold on the propride the towing experience is 100% pleasant but I give 70% credit to the hitch and 30% to the LX, if you keep the LX from 3,000-4,500 rpms while climbing it will do fine, below that range and it’s winded. I watch how I load and have taken a lot out of the trailer to lighten the load. I never load up as much s*** as my heaviest weigh in, I just wanted to see what the max weight would be, I believe you can be within range but must be cognizant of how and what you load. Pulling this combo I am so in love with it. We go back and forth about buying a gmc Denali HD 2500 and just feel like while we can load canoes, paddle boards bikes and everything in the world on a truck that has 3600lbs of payload might be nice. But the truck is big as hell and driving around town IMO would suck ass...
Well I hope that helps
Last edited:
And here is a snap shot of the Lexus manual for GCWR and how the LX570 and the Airstream sit. The trailer is perfectly level I mean perfect, I put a level in the trailer had to play with the hitch raising and lowering a few times to get it right, but now I feel it’s perfect, steering handling everything is perfect. We live in the mountains so we tow going through crazy grades going from 4,200 feet all the way up to 10,000 feet down 2 lane highways that barely have enough space to fit the air stream in its own lane with its wide body 8 1/2’ stance, going 65 having big rigs pass us the opposite direction literally 2-3’ away, the set up is 100% stable. Again I recommend buying a propride. The picture of the LX in the parking lot is of it in “N” The picture at the lake is the LX in “L”
- Thread starter
- #28
Dream combo, and very nice explanation of some very useful info. Only question I have is how is it camping in a 25’ Airstream with 3 kids? I’d love to go that route but I really worry about space and reconfiguring for bedtime.
We’ve poured over every TT we could tow and we’re leaning toward a class-c so there are seats and beds for everyone, and because we plan to take some very long trips. Thor has a floor plan so ideal we might have to risk it on their reliability issues. Washer/dryer ready. Around the same price as your Airstream given the usual ~30% off MSRP, lol.
Floor Plans Quantum: JM31
Quantum Class C RV JM31 Floor Plan by Thor Motor Coach
www.thormotorcoach.com
First you need to understand my kids, they all have separate rooms with full and queen beds... I can’t get them to sleep in their own rooms they pile in one room, on one bed even to this day... so the airstream totally works for them. They all pile into one corner and are happy, I am hoping that as they get older they will be comfortable being cramped lol. For now it works great I don’t plan on upgrading hopefully for a decade or more. We looked at very many plans but opted for airstream since they seem better built. I will tell you we haven’t had very many problems with the trailer so far, Making the beds every night is an added step, and putting it away in the morning as well. But the airstream amazingly has so many cubbies, and hidden spaces, we have not actually ever filled them all up. We do have a lot of nesting kitchen items so we usually have more stuff than we need. We have never filled up the whole airstream yet, usually the over head compartment in the bedroom is 70% empty and my wife packs, double outfits with pajamas for every night for the kids, For a 3 day trip I usually pack like it’s 6 days in case cloths get dirty. The longest trip we have taken is 5 nights and the thing is great. The airstream really has a couch, a booth and a separate bed. We got a collapsible ottoman and I usually sit at the end of the booth for
It has 2 tv’s one in the room and one in the living area. Amazingly works well and we feel like we have our own space... overall I would say it’s a little tight, but we continually feel like we made the right choice.
That Class c looks nice, only thing is... once you get to camp and you wanna go somewhere you have to pack up and drive the whole thing around wherever you want to go. My friends have a class c and ended up buying a side by side to pull behind them so they can cruise around town once they set up for camp..
It’s so hard to find the perfect thing so much give and take nothing ever seems to be able to accomplish all the goals lol
we asked the kids would you rather go on some off-road adventures here and there or pack more fun stuff for camping every kid says more fun stuff. So who knows maybe a Duramax is in our future... I just love this set up so much it makes it a hard choice
It has 2 tv’s one in the room and one in the living area. Amazingly works well and we feel like we have our own space... overall I would say it’s a little tight, but we continually feel like we made the right choice.
That Class c looks nice, only thing is... once you get to camp and you wanna go somewhere you have to pack up and drive the whole thing around wherever you want to go. My friends have a class c and ended up buying a side by side to pull behind them so they can cruise around town once they set up for camp..
It’s so hard to find the perfect thing so much give and take nothing ever seems to be able to accomplish all the goals lol
we asked the kids would you rather go on some off-road adventures here and there or pack more fun stuff for camping every kid says more fun stuff. So who knows maybe a Duramax is in our future... I just love this set up so much it makes it a hard choice
Last edited:
I agree with Rando. It's going to come down to your personal preferences.
I have a 27FB which is very very similar in floorplan to Rando's unit, with a couple more feet in length for inches here and there. It's essentially two living spaces that can be partitioned in the middle hallway. We're a family of 4, but I'd easily feel comfortable as a family of 5. Or 6, as I've hosted my parents in the trailer with us a couple times. But that's just me.
Note that Airstream measures their trailers differently than any other manufacturer. They quote bumper to ball. Others quote living quarters only, that does not include the few feet of tongue.
I have a 27FB which is very very similar in floorplan to Rando's unit, with a couple more feet in length for inches here and there. It's essentially two living spaces that can be partitioned in the middle hallway. We're a family of 4, but I'd easily feel comfortable as a family of 5. Or 6, as I've hosted my parents in the trailer with us a couple times. But that's just me.
Note that Airstream measures their trailers differently than any other manufacturer. They quote bumper to ball. Others quote living quarters only, that does not include the few feet of tongue.
- Thread starter
- #31
Thanks for the inputs, gents. My kids are not only the same way, but tiny and young. Think they probably weight 80lbs combined and take up about a crib mattress worth of space together. I think we can live with converting a dinette and/or jackknife sofa for them for quite a while, so I think we're leaning toward a Lance 2285 that grosses at 6400lbs. 27' overall. I'll be getting the LC ready over the next few weeks/months and this question was part of that. I live right up the road from the Lance factory, which makes it nice. Their dealer doesn't charge PDI or delivery for locals, making it a little easier to buy new here than most parts of the country.
^You'll love that trailer! I just helped a buddy with a Raptor earlier this year land on that Lance model. I think that floor plan just came out not long ago. He was looking at the 2185 with the only hang up being the completely open floor plan. The divided area between the bedroom and rest of the living area on the 2285 was just the ticket. We've been on a couple camping trips and he loves it. Quality is as good as it gets.
- Thread starter
- #33
Thanks. Yeah we've been on an exhaustive TT search for weeks, and the amenity per pound of Lance in general and the 2285 in particular is just incomparable. Price premium isn't even all that bad. Value proposition is strong with this one.
I'd love to have the 2465, and Lance lists it with their "7000# tow rating" offerings, but its GVWR of 7800 and 29.5' length just intimidate me on long steep grades and such. Their math is that since you're putting 10% of the trailer's weight on the tow vehicle's tongue, you're really only towing 7000lbs of trailer. Is that standard? Seems odd to me that they would put that out. By this math, we could tow 9000lb trailers since ~900lbs of it would be resting on the hitch, leaving an 8100lb trailer. But as we've discussed, the WD hitch is going to send a good 300-400lbs of that back to the trailer axles. It also doesn't seem to account for pushing forces while stopping, but I guess. Still worried about the length.
Last edited:
A friend of mine recommended a bunkhouse as a must have option for multiple kids and he was spot on, I have 3 and when they get bigger they enjoy their own little space.
- Thread starter
- #35
Yeah, we've received the same advice from many people, but we also have friends that own the BH lance (2185) who've outgrown it due to seating capacity. It's all trade offs if you're limited on towing capacity. There's no such thing as a BH TT with a sofa and a dinette and a bedroom it makes sense to tow with an LC200, or really any SUV for that matter. You have to go to murphy bed setups to get bunks in a manageable length/weight, and we want a separate room. We'll let them use that space during the day if they want a quiet spot to nap or something. Our kids are also 6mo, 2 and 9, so there's really only one that might want to hide out for the next few years.
I gotcha, personally I would skip the sofa and go dinette slide/bunkhouse with a queen “master”, don’t know what lance offers in that range, but there are plenty of travel trailers that have that within towing capacity. I always tell my kids the point of camping is to get outside, they can lounge on a sofa anywhere.
- Thread starter
- #37
Ha, the sofa's for me. it's obviously all personal preference, and I appreciate the input. Seems like plenty of Airstream families are making "bunkless" arrangements work. The 2285 dinette converts to a full size bed in 10 seconds. Sofa as well. We probably won't even trust our tiny kids in bunks for years. I agree it's about going outside, but with the true 4 season capability of the Lance, there will undoubtedly be times we're all huddled around inside out of the elements, especially while hunting at 9000' in Sep/Oct. I'd get annoyed fast doing that around a dinette.
Maybe not what your looking for but there are a bunch of FEMA trailers on the auction block for about $4 or $5k in California. A lot of them not even used.
Link is here. Just mentioning it as you're in Cali.
They were there last week, so likely come up again soon as they didn't all sell. Sometimes they have good stuff and other times it's just garbage.
There is also a Canadian company that makes fiberglass trailers with the same Quality and build as Air Stream, except they are fiberglass.
Same price as the Lance ones, you may want to take a look at them.
What area are you hunting?
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #39
Thanks. I'll check that out. Mule deer mostly, but hoping to make an Elk hunting trip to NM or CO this year or next.
Last edited:
If it was just my wife and I we'd absolutely go from the 2185 to the 2285. Flipping the sofa to a bed and just having a curtain divider are not ideal. With 3 kids the 2185 triple bunk is really an amazing footprint though.
Lance quality is pretty good. I've still had a few issues - most are just because everyone uses the same Dometic/Atwood/etc parts but there were a couple design issues with their first gen camping trailers.. If someone is looking at a used Lance then join the LOA or PM me and I can give them a few things to look for.
