I've read as many "200 Series Towing" threads as I could find here, but I'm not seeing much discussion of what I view to be the main issue when towing with the 200 series; tongue weight. Is there a consensus on why the rating is 810lbs? Obviously, if towing at the max rating of 8100lbs, an 810lb hitch weight assumes 10% of trailer weight is on the hitch. It's usually recommended that you load trailers with 10-15% of trailer weight on the hitch, and at 15% it only takes a 5400lb trailer to put 810lbs on the hitch. I've read all the "aussie GVWR upgrade" stuff, and I trust that a sufficient rear spring rate upgrade probably make it perfectly safe to exceed the cargo capacity of the 200, but do you guys assume that makes it safe to exceed max tongue weight, too? Is the tongue weight rating only there to allow enough weight for average size passengers and their average gear, or is it about the strength of the hitch receiver itself?
Tongue weight question (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter chiplee
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That receiver has a limit, but it has little to do with tong weight. some 8000 lb trailers only have 400 lb tong weight.
It has more to do with vehicle handling. You would need to change rear springs, air bags, and maybe shocks, and even there you'll have a limit.
I would not run heavy (over limit) running up and down #18 or #38.
It has more to do with vehicle handling. You would need to change rear springs, air bags, and maybe shocks, and even there you'll have a limit.
I would not run heavy (over limit) running up and down #18 or #38.
- Thread starter
- #3
It would be very dangerous to tow an 8000lb trailer with 5% of its weight on the hitch. The tongue weight a trailer has listed from the manufacturer isn't really useful information at all. On travel trailers, for example, it won't even include propane in the tanks or batteries or obviously anything you load. If you look at the trailer's GVWR and take 10-15% of that number, you can estimate the range of possible actual tongue weights. Trailers need to be loaded correctly, and you won't know your actual towing tongue weight until you load it and weigh it. I'm asking what people here shoot for, and, if they're comfortable going over 810lbs on the hitch, why? To be frank, most of the threads suggest people don't think about it much, but I'm hoping that's just because they left those details out of those particular discussions. There's an LX570 (7k capacity?) towing a 27' Airstream that probably has a 1200lb tongue weight when loaded. What info did folks use to judge that to be "ok", or do they judge it to be ok?
I haven't measured my tongue weight directly but based on data from the Airstream community, mine is likely exceeding 1k lbs. I have a few additional things on my tongue that add to it including upgraded 6V batts, 50lb genny, and solar.
Structure wise, I have no concern. The hitch is integral to the rear frame member. I've looked at it closely and it is exceedingly robust in construction, bracing, and geometry. Stout.
I agree with @Fisher23 that stability might be the larger concern. Understand that tongue weight also has stability benefits. Just need to manage the compromises. Primarily, tongue weight works against front axle weight, as it works as a lever about the rear axle. We have a rather large overhang (hitch position past rear axle) which isn't ideal. Fortunately, there's good weight distribution hitches out there that can project weight back to the front axle (and trailer axles). Need to ensure enough WD bar tension for Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR).
Other optimizations is to your point, having enough spring rate to control the load. Soft articulation springs aren't ideal for load support. Upgraded springs or airbags will help. Other point is to make sure the hitch ball is as tight and close to the rear bumper as possible as you don't want to give the trailer additional leverage with larger weights. May even want to cut the drop bar and drill a new hitch hole to bring it tight and close as each added inch at the drop bar, has the effect of compromising wheelbase about 2 inches. Maximizing effective wheelbase (wheelbase to rear overhang ratio), is important for sway resistance.
I wouldn't hesitate to exceed the rating. But more critical attention should be observed in setup.
Structure wise, I have no concern. The hitch is integral to the rear frame member. I've looked at it closely and it is exceedingly robust in construction, bracing, and geometry. Stout.
I agree with @Fisher23 that stability might be the larger concern. Understand that tongue weight also has stability benefits. Just need to manage the compromises. Primarily, tongue weight works against front axle weight, as it works as a lever about the rear axle. We have a rather large overhang (hitch position past rear axle) which isn't ideal. Fortunately, there's good weight distribution hitches out there that can project weight back to the front axle (and trailer axles). Need to ensure enough WD bar tension for Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR).
Other optimizations is to your point, having enough spring rate to control the load. Soft articulation springs aren't ideal for load support. Upgraded springs or airbags will help. Other point is to make sure the hitch ball is as tight and close to the rear bumper as possible as you don't want to give the trailer additional leverage with larger weights. May even want to cut the drop bar and drill a new hitch hole to bring it tight and close as each added inch at the drop bar, has the effect of compromising wheelbase about 2 inches. Maximizing effective wheelbase (wheelbase to rear overhang ratio), is important for sway resistance.
I wouldn't hesitate to exceed the rating. But more critical attention should be observed in setup.
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I think you are on the right track by weighing the vehicles. Which from what I can tell you need to weigh the vehicle without a trailer, then with a trailer attached but not on the scale. That’s the only accurate way to gauge tongue weight. My trailer is light, 4K when fully loaded. When it comes to towing, I like a lot of cushion especially with my wife and 3 kids on board.
- Thread starter
- #6
Owning an Airstream, do you feel it's easy to distribute cargo evenly in them? Meaning, is it easy to keep the loaded tongue weight percentage close to the dry tongue weight percentage? I think it's a crock of schit that manufacturers don't have to list "at GVWR" tongue weight. This Is a big wildcard in TT shopping when it's going to be close. Have to go find real world reports from people that own the same model you're interested in.
- Thread starter
- #7
Thanks, me too, and obtw, you can buy a tongue weight scale for $130. Amazon product ASIN B007REK28M
I use a Sherline tongue scale prior to trips to make sure I've haven't messed up on tongue weight. I have my Andersen WDH dialed in for a certain tongue weight and I try to get the trailer load balanced to maintain that. As a result, even in the worst towing condition, I don't have any "white-knuckle" driving with my 200 and my 5000 lb GVWR Camplite trailer. When I'm not using it, I'm happy to loan out my Sherline for just the cost of round trip USPS shipping, about $27. PM if interested. Other Mud members have used it and so far it's always been returned. It does top out at 1000 lbs.
- Thread starter
- #10
You would need to go with a WDH (Weight Distribution Hitch) and then the limit is 1230.
I would go with springs and maybe bags, depends on how it was handling.
Really good Trailer breaks on 38 ..
Attached spec.
View attachment 2358382
Dig it. Thanks! I would have anyway, but this really answers the "why" it's ok to go over the hitch rating. You're not. Is the consensus that springs then make it ok to also go over the cargo capacity rating? I'm pretty comfortable with that.
Yes. Much of the load space for heavier items is about the rear axle including kitchen, fridge, pantry, closet. When I carry extra stuff like cooler, bags, cases of water, I also put them in the hallway about the axle.
My particular floor plan has a front bedroom layout. There's large storage spots under the beds where one could put a lot of weight. I do try to pay attention to this as I load out the trailer. More important than not loading too much to the front, is probably not to put too much weight at the very rear. Overloading the rear to lighten tongue weights is probably one of the largest newbie mistakes.
For my setup, it doesn't seem to be particularly sensitive to tongue weight. Whether full or empty water, in different tanks, 100# worth of bikes on hitch in rear, empty or full 30# propane tanks which could be a 80lb swing in hitch weight... It's consistently been stable. I have invested time and effort to make sure she's setup right though.
In my experience, sufficient WD tension is one of the major adjustments for stability.
In my opinion it comes down to this. Tongue rating is rating that vehicle can handle as load on rear and maintain safe driving in front to rear weight distribution of your vehicle. You can exceed Tongue if you have way to modify that load such as weight distribution bars. Alternate options above suggesting bags or strong springs would also work but if towing is not your at least 50% usage case I would not want to impact daily ride.
I have way more towing experience with 1997 T100 than my current LC and nothing I currently tow is even close to limits of LC. I have however exceed the specs of my T100 on more than one occasion. The T100 towing from ball on bumper is rated at 5100lb and 540 tongue. When I have exceeded the tongue by say 100 pounds no real issue just that rear is now lower than front as opposed to level (normal ride is rear is higher). Exceeding the tongue by say 200 pounds the front end when bounced become light enough to impact steering and squat in rear is really noticeable. Towing from class 4 on T100 I have been 300 pounds over tongue with equivalent trailer weight nearly impossible to move around as front tires have far to little contact. Adding in load distribution bars and setting them fixed this and I was able to pull the load (very slowly just 3.4 pulling 8750lb).
I have way more towing experience with 1997 T100 than my current LC and nothing I currently tow is even close to limits of LC. I have however exceed the specs of my T100 on more than one occasion. The T100 towing from ball on bumper is rated at 5100lb and 540 tongue. When I have exceeded the tongue by say 100 pounds no real issue just that rear is now lower than front as opposed to level (normal ride is rear is higher). Exceeding the tongue by say 200 pounds the front end when bounced become light enough to impact steering and squat in rear is really noticeable. Towing from class 4 on T100 I have been 300 pounds over tongue with equivalent trailer weight nearly impossible to move around as front tires have far to little contact. Adding in load distribution bars and setting them fixed this and I was able to pull the load (very slowly just 3.4 pulling 8750lb).
Down under they are extremely ticket happy for GVW offences, so those folks go for spring and shocks to re-rate their GVWR. In Cali it's not driving in the slow lane with your trailer that will get an inspection. I'm not sure how you would get re-rated here, Likely not done unless really needed. You may want to look at those setups.
I have ARB rear springs, think they were 600+ above OEM. Some of the shops like SLEE can give you clear answers on the springs and shocks, it can get quite detailed.
There are several vehicles on here with Airstreams, they are on one of the towing threads. Looked like the 24' ones.
I have ARB rear springs, think they were 600+ above OEM. Some of the shops like SLEE can give you clear answers on the springs and shocks, it can get quite detailed.
There are several vehicles on here with Airstreams, they are on one of the towing threads. Looked like the 24' ones.
- Thread starter
- #14
I don't intend to try to get it re-rated. I just wanted to know what mods improve which rating. I think I got pretty good answers. Springs allow some amount of cargo capacity increase. As always, ymmv, do your own research on what spring rate "Lovell" uses to get to the Aussie number, etc.. That's just cargo capacity though. A weight distributing hitch allows you to return the front axle to the pre-trailer attachment weight, thereby returning tongue weight back to within spec (810lbs) on tongue weights up to 1230lbs. I assume the 1230 WD hitch rating is based on the expectation that these hitches can transfer around a third of the tongue weight forward off of the rear axle. Fair? I'd want to check this every time, but the manual allows for visually returning the front to the same fender height with WD hitch adjustments.
Where can I see the rest of that "advanced technical data" reference you shared, btw?
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You can call Christo at SLEE Offroad.
This thread here is a start.
forum.ih8mud.com
This thread here is a start.
Anyone swap rear springs?
I bought my 200 with an OME heavy suspension already installed, and I definitely don't carry enough weight in the back for the OME 2723 spring rate. I have a light rear bumper, ARB drawers swapped in place of 3rd row seats, and a fridge. I rarely have more than 1 passenger, and the heavy springs...
forum.ih8mud.com
- Thread starter
- #16
After thinking about it more, I don't think this was "fair." Tongue weight can't be moved "forward of" the rear axle, but it can be effectively moved closer to the rear axle making trailers tow like the hitch is closer to the rear axle by taking lever arm out of the point of hitch weight application. Essentially, a WD hitch widens the area across which hitch weight is applied from simply the ball to a "bridge" that extents forward toward the tow vehicle rear axle and after toward the trailer axles. The same weight is technically still applied to the tow vehicle, but with less PSI so to speak. Does this jive with everyone's understanding of WD hitch physics? Assuming proper trailer loading, a Hensley hitch would make the LC200 perfectly comfortable/stable at max towing capacity, albeit somewhat power limited.
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- Thread starter
- #18
Sure, max allowed trailer weight couldn't possibly be effected. Didn't suggest it could, but I struggled to get my head around how WD hitches impact tongue weight, if at all. The notion that they don't actually decrease weight on the ball, but also "transfer" weight forward on the tow vehicle axles and aft on the trailer axles is harder math than I'm up for most days.
Related; I found this video informative in showing the effect of air bags (or heavier springs) and weight distributing hitch on measured axle weights. (tow vehicle and trailer:
Your suspicion that payload is not interchangeable to tongue weight is right.
On the topic of projecting tongue weight however, the WD component does indeed project the weight ahead of the rear axle. If we think of the rear axle as the fulcrum (pivot point of a teeter totter), if the weight were not projected ahead of the rear axle, there would be no restoring weight to the front axle.
Lateral forces however, are not.
That's where fancy pivot point projection (PPP) hitches like the Hensley or Propride come in to do the same for lateral forces.
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