What about unsanctioned events? They are listed in the mag and somewhat "sold" to the TLCA members but do not benefit from the insurance. What is the liability on TLCA r.e. the association with these events?
TLCA event without TLCA insurance?
- Thread starter Trollhole
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.
Green Lantern
Have Truck, Will Travel
Most likely, TLCA would not be listed as a plaintiff in a suit against an "outlaw" event.
The Sewer (sorry, bad pun) has to show two things to the judge. 1) damage was done, and 2) the defendant was responsible. The Suwee (another inappropriate pun) often gets lumped into a group who share alleged partial responsibility for the incident.
The umbrella policy, accurately noted by Jennifer (MetalSpice), is a generic coverage designed only to protect the organization and it's chapters. So, if Sewerbob says Suweephat told him to drive down an incline sideways real fast the judge has to decide was Suweephat representing TLCA (covered) or was Suweephat just giving his own misguided opinion (not covered).
Believe me, it can get much more complicated. Anyway, if you as a Sewer, feel you've been hurt by someone... then you're going to go after anyone that seems supportive to the event. Since an unsanctioned run doesn't have a BOD vote approving it, I doubt anyone could sue TLCA. But, they most certainly would sue any club that appeared to run the event.
Hope that helps,
Nick
The Sewer (sorry, bad pun) has to show two things to the judge. 1) damage was done, and 2) the defendant was responsible. The Suwee (another inappropriate pun) often gets lumped into a group who share alleged partial responsibility for the incident.
The umbrella policy, accurately noted by Jennifer (MetalSpice), is a generic coverage designed only to protect the organization and it's chapters. So, if Sewerbob says Suweephat told him to drive down an incline sideways real fast the judge has to decide was Suweephat representing TLCA (covered) or was Suweephat just giving his own misguided opinion (not covered).
Believe me, it can get much more complicated. Anyway, if you as a Sewer, feel you've been hurt by someone... then you're going to go after anyone that seems supportive to the event. Since an unsanctioned run doesn't have a BOD vote approving it, I doubt anyone could sue TLCA. But, they most certainly would sue any club that appeared to run the event.
Hope that helps,
Nick
packman73
SILVER Star
I'm not sure if there are other organizations across the country that do this, but I'm guessing a google search would net some results. But, in the Midwest, we can, as a club or individual, join Midwest 4WD Association. Membership is like $9/member and if you have an event, they will insure the event for $350(least that's the last number I heard). From my read of the TLCA Waiver and policy, it's for a "Poker Run"...I'm guessin that it would be a bit of stretch in a court of law to call what we do at events a Poker Run.
Just my .02.
And I sure as heck don't want to get sued either. Heck we didn't even get waivers for GATOR nor did we receive our insurance forms. But we still paid for the insurance. There was another event shortly after GATOR that had the same experience from my understanding.
The event certificate per event lists the TLCA as the "Insured" it also provides each event to list "additional insured" to cover any additional liabilities that might be needed. Under the "additional insured it will list the club and other specifics per the clubs direction(example, forest service, caterer, landowner, sponsers etc).
So Jeff.. We have an original policy covering TLCA which is the general policy then each event gets specific coverage above and beyond the original policy where they are able to list specifics utilized during the event and offer liability coverage. Each event policy does indeed cover the TLCA as it is under the TLCA blanket policy and the "Insured" entity is TLCA. Not sure where you are getting your information that TLCA is not covered by insurance but it is incorrect.
As far as "Unsanctioned" events. the TLCA is covered in it's original policy from a liability standpoint for the duration of the existing policy, so if they sue the "TLCA" it is covered if the claim occurs during the time frame of an active policy. Would the "unsanctioned" club, landowner, organizer, spotter have coverage under the TLCA policy if they didn't ask for a certificate for that specific event? no. that is a risk we all take daily in the course and scope of living.
Other smaller events have been known to ask for TLCA insurance certificates in the past as long as they pay the small fee associated with obtaining and covering said insurance liability certificate expense. This allows smaller events (aka unsanctioned) to list specific properties, businesses associated, forest services, farms, land owners, port a john companies etc with proof of liability insurance for said event. All they would need to do is contact the current Exec VP with info. It's rare that a club would incur an additional expense proactively to cover an unknown liability but it has happened in the past.
Clear as mud? Feel free to ask any questions pertaining and i'll be happy to provide a historical reference to the process. Current coverage questions should be directed to the current EVP for clarification.
So Jeff.. We have an original policy covering TLCA which is the general policy then each event gets specific coverage above and beyond the original policy where they are able to list specifics utilized during the event and offer liability coverage. Each event policy does indeed cover the TLCA as it is under the TLCA blanket policy and the "Insured" entity is TLCA. Not sure where you are getting your information that TLCA is not covered by insurance but it is incorrect.
As far as "Unsanctioned" events. the TLCA is covered in it's original policy from a liability standpoint for the duration of the existing policy, so if they sue the "TLCA" it is covered if the claim occurs during the time frame of an active policy. Would the "unsanctioned" club, landowner, organizer, spotter have coverage under the TLCA policy if they didn't ask for a certificate for that specific event? no. that is a risk we all take daily in the course and scope of living.
Other smaller events have been known to ask for TLCA insurance certificates in the past as long as they pay the small fee associated with obtaining and covering said insurance liability certificate expense. This allows smaller events (aka unsanctioned) to list specific properties, businesses associated, forest services, farms, land owners, port a john companies etc with proof of liability insurance for said event. All they would need to do is contact the current Exec VP with info. It's rare that a club would incur an additional expense proactively to cover an unknown liability but it has happened in the past.
Clear as mud? Feel free to ask any questions pertaining and i'll be happy to provide a historical reference to the process. Current coverage questions should be directed to the current EVP for clarification.
"Other smaller events have been known to ask for TLCA insurance certificates in the past as long as they pay the small fee associated with obtaining and covering said insurance liability certificate expense. This allows smaller events (aka unsanctioned) to list specific properties, businesses associated, forest services, farms, land owners, port a john companies etc with proof of liability insurance for said event. All they would need to do is contact the current Exec VP with info. It's rare that a club would incur an additional expense proactively to cover an unknown liability but it has happened in the past"
This is great information and just what I was looking for. Thanks
This is great information and just what I was looking for. Thanks
- Thread starter
- #26
Yep didn't know about that one.
packman73
SILVER Star
Seems to me this information should be put in a FAQ somewhere...maybe TLCA.org?
Just in case someone would happen to ask a question like this in the few-ture.
to confirm... any event sponsored by TLCA under Hosted, Sanctioned, Open, Rallye or Limited must have insurance with TLCA listed. Additionally, if Sponsored (anyone of those categories), the TLCA logo is to be displayed in the artwork.
Justin and Jenn are spot on correct.
TT listing a non sponsored event is just like Peterson's listing OHV events... there is no implied responsibility or sponsorship.
(I helped write that stuff.)
Justin and Jenn are spot on correct.
TT listing a non sponsored event is just like Peterson's listing OHV events... there is no implied responsibility or sponsorship.
(I helped write that stuff.)
Thank you Jennifer and Erik for clarifying that. I went back and dug up some of the Cruise Moab policies I had from when I was responsible for getting our Insurance when I was on the Cruise Moab Committee. It does list TLCA as the insured, and then there is the second part where you have to list the chapter as the "additional insured" along with the places the event is held, in the case of Cruise Moab, covers "State of Utah and State of Utah Trust Lands Administration, Glen Canyon Recreation Area, Grand Staircase Nation Monument, Canyonlands National Park, Slickrock Campground".
A key phrase I was referring to in my original reply was the clause that says the policy covers "Any person or organization engaged in operating, managing, sanctioning, or sponsoring the covered program, or providing premises for the covered program, including officials of the covered program". I had to dig up a copy of our policy to find that and share it, but as Jennifer and Erik both pointed out, that not protects the chapter but also protects TLCA.
To reiterate, the bylaws and SOPs do not require that a TLCA event must have insurance through TLCA. They only state that event participant must sign the insurance waiver, but they do not specify who's insurance it is.
Back to the original question, the answer remains, no, you do not have to have insurance coverage through TLCA to have a TLCA event. And to amplify what Tony wrote in his first reply, if the TLCA event chooses to have insurance outside TLCA's policy, it needs to cover TLCA, and by implication needs to cover us at least as well as our TLCA coverage does. If an event wants to use the policy of the OHV park, they would need a specific rider which covered TLCA, and at least as well as the policy we offer to our chapters for their TLCA events.
A key phrase I was referring to in my original reply was the clause that says the policy covers "Any person or organization engaged in operating, managing, sanctioning, or sponsoring the covered program, or providing premises for the covered program, including officials of the covered program". I had to dig up a copy of our policy to find that and share it, but as Jennifer and Erik both pointed out, that not protects the chapter but also protects TLCA.
To reiterate, the bylaws and SOPs do not require that a TLCA event must have insurance through TLCA. They only state that event participant must sign the insurance waiver, but they do not specify who's insurance it is.
Back to the original question, the answer remains, no, you do not have to have insurance coverage through TLCA to have a TLCA event. And to amplify what Tony wrote in his first reply, if the TLCA event chooses to have insurance outside TLCA's policy, it needs to cover TLCA, and by implication needs to cover us at least as well as our TLCA coverage does. If an event wants to use the policy of the OHV park, they would need a specific rider which covered TLCA, and at least as well as the policy we offer to our chapters for their TLCA events.
Green Lantern
Have Truck, Will Travel
Sorry, I don't agree with your statement below.
TLCA is not the prime actor in an event. The host chapter is. Chapters don't stage TLCA events, they stage their own events. Our chapters meet the rules in the SOPs only to participate in the TLCA umbrella policy as a convenience to the host chapter. To suggest that host chapters have to purchase an additional rider for TLCA, when TLCA has no direct control over the event, is just wrong.
TLCA is not the prime actor in an event. The host chapter is. Chapters don't stage TLCA events, they stage their own events. Our chapters meet the rules in the SOPs only to participate in the TLCA umbrella policy as a convenience to the host chapter. To suggest that host chapters have to purchase an additional rider for TLCA, when TLCA has no direct control over the event, is just wrong.
