This Jobsite (Project) Sucks Vent Thread

[Delancy]

My sentiments, exactly. Darker the better.

10" of rain since we began this @)(/)):.(&@8ing job, and it's hindered. Today should've been the final day, but 1 1/2" fell last night. So digging trim out of a lake after walking tools an 1/8th mile from pavement.

Sucks. Tired of it, the plumber, and the disappearing margin.

Edited: BUT, the next one has started off even worse. It's never a good indicator when a job is screwed up enough to start affecting the bottom line, before even showing up.

Different GC. Second, and last job, I'm doing for them.

Deliver $313.00 worth of 7/8x24" anchors that are drawn, as they always are, to embed in pier, this being 3x3x3.

Super calls stating bolts are too long, so went to check out what they'd screwed up on, figuring I'd cut and bend if a rebar mat was in the way.

Show up, they'd poured footings and piers 8" below FF and wanted me to shorten bolts to 6" so they'd fit in the too shallow turndown.

I scratched my head in amazement.

It's not rocket science that shortening a bolt to 1/4 it's intended length is shady, let alone standing a 26' column and half of an 80' rafters weight on merely 6" of concrete holding the (4) bolts per column in.

Now, they're pitching a fit about the standard per bolt fee we charge for epoxies, that barely covers material, let alone layout, prep, drilling ( with $139 bit ) and all the other incidentals associated with.

 

[Titan]

an earlier mention of saving money having a huge impact on quality, that seems to be a moot point these days...how true, I'm a GC specializing in Heavy Marine construction, while costs have doubled in the last 5 years, the bottom line and 20% profit margin have shrunk,to 12-15% ..and all anyone cares about is saving a buck. I attempt to explain my $47 a sq ft price to install a pier, while some shmo down the road is talking 25-30 a sq. owner thinks i'm way overpriced..well, lets compare product..zero nails ,all carrage bolt's, 2.5 Marine treated..not above ground use, pile's driven by 3.5 tons of steel,not a garden hose w/PVC fitting..warrantied for 5years....falls on deaf ears. then in 1year when owner calls contractor to report listing,or piling failure..no answer..then I get called...i'm better off working at walmart.

 

[Delancy]

12% sounds good.

Coupled with rising costs, one variable that's rarely considered is the impact of weather. In all reality, we work 9-10 months out of the year, and several of those worked are at diminished capacity/productivity due to winds, bitter cold, +100 temps

Add that the labor pool has shrank ( the irony, considering the high unemployment ) and it's a challenge to increase workload to offset diminished marginal percentages.

Honestly never thought it would get as bad as it did, and in my arrogance in fall of 2008, stated as such to my wife, based on the existing accounts and the constant need to add for inventory, self storages and light commercial, specifically.

I was wrong.

Finally have more work contracted, majority self storage facilities, our bread and butter, than I've seen since 2009, but struggling to re-staff, re-tool, re-invoke the sense of efficiency and urgency.

C'est la vie.

 

[Delancy]

This may rank high on the list of all time stupid chit I've seen degreed CMs do.

22' tall columns on an 80' span.

Have (4) of these.

 

[PAToyota]

Ok, I'm at a loss... What they fook did they think they were trying to accomplish?

I'm also at a loss as to how they accomplished what they did. I'd say they jackhammered the holes, but the conduit/plumbing/whatever is under the pour? Did they form around it with sand? I'm totally lost.

 

[micruz60]

Holy cow! What sort of uplift and wind load reduction is now a reality with those base plates...?
I understand it is prohibitively expensive to 'tornado-proof' a building, but, given the tragic events around your area, a 'degreed Construction Manager' betta have stout risk management cojones!!
A known area for these powerful storms would encourage me to shie away from value engineered and suspect 'code minimum' performance... document your photos and any conversations regarding your concerns with the 'higher authority' Building officials, Const. mgr. et cetera. CYA!!

 

[Delancy]

They ran the water lines up directly where the J-bolts should've been (in a line directly under all the sidewall columns. Pretty sure I heard hissing when we were drilling for the epoxies, so the water line is already compromised. GC knows it, and said he'd "worry about it later") so they jack hammered out and "relocated" the water line, leaving no means to run another bolt into the pier, plus the concrete was crumbling below the column once secured.

Hit two post tension cables when they were jack hammering, both already stressed. Couldn't believe it, but doubt the flunkies they sent out had any clue to the danger of a stressed cable.

Never seen the separation on a post tension floor, like this one, either.......but we were instructed to put an 18,000lb lift on it two days after it was poured.

What pisses me off is this is a reputable outfit, if reputation is dictated by the amount of jobsite signs spread across the metro area.

I've not seen this level of comprise being acceptable on any job I've worked on, even dealing with the DIY general contractors that read a book about commercial construction two weeks before pulling a permit.

 

[Delancy]

Holy cow! What sort of uplift and wind load reduction is now a reality with those base plates...?
I understand it is prohibitively expensive to 'tornado-proof' a building, but, given the tragic events around your area, a 'degreed Construction Manager' betta have stout risk management cojones!!
A known area for these powerful storms would encourage me to shie away from value engineered and suspect 'code minimum' performance... document your photos and any conversations regarding your concerns with the 'higher authority' Building officials, Const. mgr. et cetera. CYA!!

Your guess is as good as mine on reduced capacity.

For the most part, kick out it of greater concern at base plate connections, or an important one.

The three anchors securing the balance at 7/8"x26" embedded epoxies with more inherent strength than an equivalent bent anchor, but the third party engineer that signs off on our work when I'm responsible for doing so would require a 12" flange welded to the base plate with (8) more equivalent anchors before he'd pass.

Anxious to see how there's addresses.

There's no way to tornado proof any structure due to the unknown variable of flying debris, that can be semis as we've seen in OK.

That said, I did have a mini storage sustain a direct hit from an F4 in Cordell, Oklahoma with no structural damage......but shingles shot through the PBR panel like you couldn't believe. If forces to choose between a red iron building or a mini storage I built, I'd pick the mini storage all day.

Metal buildings are as safe as any structure in a tornado, which is not at all, unfortunately.

And you can bet your ass I'm documenting with pics, texts of pics, replies and screen shots of all, along with liability waivers on prematurely getting on floor.

Sucks to get hammered on a bid, then witness this level on deficiency on commercial work of this nature.

 

[micruz60]

Delancy - do you have / know a good lawyer, well-versed in construction issues, and familiar with engineering? Keep on documenting the facts, and date stamp them.
I've worked on a couple PEMB (pre-engineered metal buildings) and when inquiring about specific reaction capacity / uplift at column base into HUGE concrete cubes, their engineers often say 'this is not for human habitation - agricultural structures are what we do' and my client wants me to retro fit, make it work for their programmatic desires, I had to separate myself from the project. Cutting post tension cables / hairpins defeats the integrity to the complete building assembly.
I'm also bummed by the school and hospital in Moore getting significant damage... building codes usually designates the 'essential structure' as being constructed to withstand major forces, hence firestations, police and EMS as well as areas of shelter (schools, public library) ought to be held to a higher requirement, with redundancy built in. Apparently we humans just won't learn until a catastrophic event happens (***ishima nuke plant withstood earthquake and tsunami, but their cooling pumps failed and a major blow to energy independence resulted) and then the cries are raised for greater regs and the public suffers the cost....
"Sucks to get hammered on a bid, then witness this level on deficiency on commercial work of this nature." The client gets what they paid for... I hate to say it but that's the truth.
Stay safe!

 

[Delancy]

No. Fortunately have never needed.

Their engineer spec'd and signed off on epoxies, which the structural values far exceed required, based on reactions (plans) I provided for steel.

The latest "development" has no bearing on my scope of work, per say, and their engineer of record will be inspecting and signing off on at frame completion, so whatever needs to be done to correct this issue should be determined at that time.

I'm not touching it.

This isn't a normal predicament for my business entity, since we typically don't contract to a GC or CM firms but direct with the principal, and I've a growing workload, so won't be in a similar for the foreseeable future.

The PEs that handle the third party responsibilities when I'm to provide, are thorough, particular, and, even though they've a good idea to the level we erect, will get in a bucket and spot test bolt assemblies.

This is new to us, to some degree, so I don't blame them and have no reservations regarding the process.

It will be interesting to see the results of this one.

They won't know anything that the GC isn't at liberty to disclose, but I've covered my arse.

 

[micruz60]

Ever had OSHA come look around?

 

[Delancy]

On the Moore event.

I don't know how feasible constructing to withstand the major forces of a +F3 would be, considering the unknown variables such as missile impact resistance to tractor trailers and train cars.

Yes, that's a reality.

I've responded to several threads, and won't rehash, but have seen firsthand, the aftermath of many tornadoes, the '99 in Moore being the most destructive and mind blowing. Literally, transport trucks stacked on top one another, almost toylike in appearance due to the inability to comprehend.

I agree with you, but don't know how it'd be possible without exceeding budgetary restraints that may negate construction, altogether.

At this point, it's almost a knee jerk reaction to point out systemic failures and judge accordingly, almost like both sides of the gun club do after a shooting.

Trade off. Build a hospital to service community to stringent requirements already in place, but fallible, or squelch future high occupancy construction by imposing bomb shelter criteria. No hospital for community.

Hard call.

Personally, when it comes to emergency operations and the care of potentially incapacitated patients, my vote is more quantities of smaller reinforced structures with less exposure.

Different note.

One thing that I've found odd, considering this map.



There's several secured server facilities on the north end of OKC, all new. Not sure if the fact it's America's Corner or demanded by industry, but they are supposedly, fail proof.

All constructed out of precast with external beams (sorry, I don't know the terminology, but reminiscent of government structures built in the Cold War era) and, what appeared to be, no more than a built up roof on bar joists.

All framing appeared, at highway speeds, to be closer than would seem logical, but not the 4' thick concrete walled and roofed structure my simple brain would believe required.

Maybe there's new technology of engineering standard available that can be utilized, a result of seeing the catastrophic failures that Mother Nature's responsible for on a global scale.

 

[Delancy]

Ever had OSHA come look around?

Dirty word, dirty word.

BAN, BAN, BAN.








THEY SHOW UP, I'm coming after you!!!

Haha. I'm joking....I think.

Yes, sir.

One occasion that cost me a reduced $3,700 because of improper fall protection (harness lanyards underrated) on a structure that was, by plans, 15' 1" from FF.

15' is the max with the particular harness utilized, but in fairness, he did allow us the courtesy of pulling into job and announcing his return in fifteen minutes, thankfully.

OSHA regulations are the reason for a 4 bolt column connection. Believe the limit is 680lbs or something close to, if that's what you're eluding to.

OSHA, for the most part, responds to incidents only in OK. He happened to be on his way investigating one when doing a higher profile job many years ago, and saw "infractions" at highway speed.

We have a strict policy, since same corp group for many years, that we RUN.

I still contend that there's no safe means to roof wearing fall protection and three hours after, one guy busted his ass, almost plummeting to the FF, tripping on the lanyard. The requirement is to wear, but not tie off, or was according to that particular citation.

Here's the deal.

I'm a dumbass, uneducated redneck in the middle of nowhere with only the ability to work 60-70 hours a week (when I began in 93) busting ass erecting metal buildings, attribute.

I've been through all the ups and downs of small businesses, seen my fair share of the good and the bad, and have learned at every mistake along the way, BUT I'd never risk the health or lives of crew or sacrifice building integrity for the sake of a buck, or anything for that matter.

My bread and butter are self storage facilities and now that they're on an upswing, I can return to simplicity, speed, and not paying $2.38 per $1 work comp on red iron.

Edited: I did check where 83455 is, though.
Bahahahaha.

 

[micruz60]

Good on ya!

I too was doing some due diligence on a project and saw the req't for the (4) A. bolts and it being mandated for the 'temporary bracing of the column until fastened at top point' and related this to the crew... kinda built in redundancy. But I have no interest in sic'ing OSHA on anybody, enough heartburn out there already.

"I'm a dumbass, uneducated redneck in the middle of nowhere..." NO you are not! From the beginning of this thread I agreed with all of the background and what you are dealing with is just wrong. Sometimes a hifalutin' edumacashun is not

Thanks for putting up that US map, I read somewhere (USA Today?) that the US of A is the only place in the world with these incredibly destructive storms (trailer parks are tornado magnets?) regularly happen with the magnitude we see, and this is only the beginning of tornado season??!!! At a minimum, the storm cellar or vault in center of building shall be required in tornado alley(s).


"All constructed out of precast with external beams (sorry, I don't know the terminology, but reminiscent of government structures built in the Cold War era) and, what appeared to be, no more than a built up roof on bar joists."

-Probably tilt-up double tee concrete sections on shallow foundations and mechanically tied to roof and foundation... cost effective, but pretty utilitarian and ugly (IMO) Concrete domes? might be more robust... but the flying semi trailer would still crash through, probably. Maybe human habitation should cease in these areas ;shrug; not likely tho.

 

[nspctr1]

Yeah, The last project I worked on when I was with the Corps had a metal roof. The contractor installed the panels backwards with the laps up stream. First rain put a bunch of water in the building. The contractor had the balls to blame it on the corps saying that the inspector should have caught it and stopped them from proceeding. Problem was, they did most of the installation on a weekend when they were contractually prohibited from working. Dumb Asses.

OSHA hit the base when they were installing the roof on the next monday. Hit them for not tying off, wearing tennis shoes and ladders not extending 3' above roof line. The roofer went broke afterwards.

BTW, the panels in your picture that do not line up at the peak look horrible.....

just sayin'

 

[Delancy]

Maybe human habitation should cease in these areas ;shrug; not likely tho.

Don't know if a product of the environment, but resilience is the admirable attribute of all Oklahomans, and even today, bet one would be hard pressed to find any that'd abandon based on these relatively random, but devastating, events.

It's easy to pose the "does rebuilding make sense" question, as many have after hurricanes, earthquakes, wildfires, and all other natural phenomena that wipes the slate clean, but hard to answer, especially for those that it's home to.

It's always been my understanding that repeat occurrences are random in nature, but one would have to question that, based on this alone.

Red: May 3rd, 1999 Tornado Path - F5
Blue: May 8th, 2003 Tornado Path - F4
Green: May 20th, 2013 Tornado Path - F5 (estimated)

Yet, statistically speaking, when looking at the big picture, there's not a lot of data to suggest that Moore, specifically, is any more prone than anywhere east of.

 

[Delancy]

Dumb Asses.

Surprising.

Not seen a Corp of Engineers project that wasn't SSR, and difficult to make an error at a lap, since most all SSR panels have a defined start and finish progression with end punches and back up plates that only allow for installing one direction.

Plus, any Corp specific project I've seen In the past required healthy bid, job, performance bonds that I wouldn't think attainable by someone too stupid to wipe their own ass, which is what that mistake would elude to their mental capacity being.

The Corp is responsible for inspections on this job, too. Not sure why, considering its tribal, but I'm a non-Indian sub contractor so unfamiliar with who has what jurisdiction and where.

BTW, the panels in your picture that do not line up at the peak look horrible.....
just sayin'

I appreciate your opinion. You must've skipped over the four hundred word dissertation explaining "why" and my full agreement with you. It's not a peak but a hip, BTW.

I'm not making excuses, but it's a design error, but honestly, there's no visible angle from the ground that any two opposing planes are simultaneously visible at the hips, so only we'll know.

 

[Delancy]

It's always a joy to see efforts in haste, out of a GC prescribed necessity, in vain.

Guess they missed the October opening.

 

[rustybucket]

Hire a canadian...because they are the best trained!

The entire trade industry is regulated. We have a body called industry training authority BC, where the plumber,electrican and a host of other trades that are simular, have to pass there Red Seal Provincial licence. I once asked the requirments to pass the four year electricans licence. Need to pass physics 11 and Physics 12 among many things.

Haha. Can't count how many times I've heard "Well, it worked on paper."

What's frustrating in the pre-engineered steel industry is how dependent detailers are on software and how irrelevant software is on complex structures......complex defined as more than a basic box.

Have seen several errors that were blamed on the software, blamed by the people who are paid to find those errors, but whose paycheck a are unaffected when they err.



See the same phenomena on residential-ish here, more frustrating, the smaller medical/office space that are impossible to do, within budget constraints, pre-engineered steel, or even metal roofing, due to the inherent limitations of both.

During the hay day of the residential bubble, anyone that could borrow money became a home builder here, since contracting is an unlicensed trade. Knew of four that were full time employees at American Airlines, all conducting business in one small bedroom community of Tulsa, so flooded the market with house rat subcontractors.

Since the decline of residential in the +250k properties, a lot of the developers and contractors moved into the medical/office field and brought the lower cost residential subs with them, so very hard to compete when legitimately insured and staffed with experienced crew.

Oddly enough, during a pow wow (no pun intended, but this is a tribal complex senior living facility) with the powers that be, the principles expressed concern over oil canning, a possibility with any standing seam roof panel, and questioned the panel profile selected. For whatever reason, it was instantly determined "my department" and no one was happy to hear me say "there's one guarantee, it will can".

 

[rustybucket]

Patoyota, thanks for giving us some insight into the building process

Where is the picture of the house you built located at? Was the ground able to perk?