Synthetic line deal - $109

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Has anybody have any experience with this product? Haven't seen a spec sheet from the company and am waiting for them to send more info on it. 109 dollars is a screaming deal for 3/8 inch x85 feet.

The store is indicating 16,000 pd capacity but I'd like to know the actual type of line fiber.

Any pro's/con's to giving this a whirl at this price ? It's not the highest rated syn line out there for the width - the masterpull superline xd series are close to 23,000 pds.. but if your winch capacity is 12k, and you do your load calculations right when rigging, you'd likely be using a snatch block and double lining if you're in a tough recovery.. who wants to overlaod their gear, battery, winch etc when you just have to spend an additional couple minutes setting up an pulley anchor?

i don't see the benefit of spending 300-500 bucks on a line if you dont' have to and should be double lining for big pulls anyways.

comments from those in the know are appreciated.


http://speeddemon.ca/clearance/synthetic-winch-rope-10mm-x-26m.html
 
Give it a whirl if you want. A tested and proven line from Southeast Overland 3/8" x 85' of domestically manufactured Dyneema SK75 is $239.

I have repaired several 'budget' lines and have not been impressed with the quality of the line, hardware, or splicing. The hardware was weak, splicing had a dangerously short bury, and the line looked years old after 2 easy pulls due to what I thought was a sub par coating.

The line we use in 3/8" has a ABS of 19,600 lbs (depending on the splice) and our 5/16" is 13,700 lbs. The 3/8" you are looking at with a BS of 16.000 lbs is in the middle of those two so I'm curious as to the line type and manufacturer also. Check on that bc some line types perform substantially different than the Dyneema SK75 that most are used to.

Shoot us a PM or post up any questions. We are glad to help.
 
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Thanks for the reply back on this - I've followed a couple of your threads and appreciate your expertise on this. As such, I had also forwarded your contact info to a friend of mine who specializes in cruiser rebuilding. He has 6 winches and lines to put together and looking for guidance on quality lines.

I'll come back with some info from the retailer of this product to see what line they use.

thx.
 
Thank you. We are happy to help. Education is part of what we do - not just sales.

I'm interested in the fiber. I have some experience importing and dealing with materials manufactured in China and have plenty of stories... You can get some decent stuff and you also get junk. I don't mess with recovery products with questionable origins.

:cheers:
 
The reason I spent the money to put a top notch winch on my truck was so that I could get my truck out of trouble when wheeling alone (hunting is a good example). Saving money on a winch line doesnt' make much sense. It sounds like a great way to wind up walking 30 miles back to a road where you could get a ride to town. Keep in mind that you will then be faced with trying to get someone to drive out where you are stuck or waiting a couple of days to get your new line shipped to you. I'd be extremely worried about coming back to a stripped truck.

I am so paranoid about getting stuck after having done a couple of long walks that I plan to carry an extra line in my drawer system....just in case I break my primary...and both will be high quality.
 
I reading your post as you referring to the quality of the line is inferior due to its price. This synthetic line has had its price cut in half by the retailer to offload inventory that will not be restocked. Perhaps I should have said it was 300 dollars ;) and then everybody would think its a deal if it was cut from $600.

I can't comment on the quality of any of these lines, i don't have access to the QA/QC results. Quality refers manufacturing process and resulting products created with low defects and tolerances within prescribed limits.

If you're referring to buying things according to name brand and price, perhaps a Porsche Cayenne, or Range Rover is a higher quality product. The Landcruiser is much cheaper and thus has lower 'quality'. But then again, much of reputation is related to marketing effectiveness, brand recognition, target markets, perceived value, personal tastes etc.

Back on topic - for this line, equal diameter, 12 weave construction, its probably middle of the road for the line capacity at 16,700 pound rating.. I appreciate getting specific things, (like recovery equipment) appropriately rated and to be used for its intended purpose - but there are also other factors to rigging setup that allow you to pull more than ratings on your winch, winch line, and rigging equipment. If you understand basic rigging and know your equipment ratings, you can change the load accordingly. This is where not having top of the line 23,000 pd line is necessary, its more about using your equipment within the design limitations. On a side note, I can have a 23,000 pound rated winch line break due to a manufacturing defect at at a rating of 10,000 pounds, whereas my on sale 16,700 pound rated winch line may keep on humming without problem. Like i said, without the testing data, quality is a mystery and we go on marketing, word of mouth, individual testing, field accounts etc.. so on my winch line, jury is out.


As for your response indicating redundant back up systems make for smart wheeling, I agree with you.
 
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3/8" Amsteel Blue by Samson made in America has an ABS of 19,600 lbs.

For Dyneema SK75, which Amsteel Blue is, an ABS of 16,000 lbs for 3/8" is low.

Amsteel, or Dyneema SK60, has an ABS of 15,500 lbs. So that line you found, if it is Dyneema SK75, then it has the strength of a quality SK60.
 
I'm still waiting to hear from the manufacturer whether it is sk60 or 75. From the stated line capacities you've indicated, this is probably sk60. I recall you mentioned something around testing and rating lines - average breaking strength vs ??? Are all lines rated by Average breaking strength or Minimum breaking strength? If so, why the discrepancy in rating?
 
I'm still waiting to hear from the manufacturer whether it is sk60 or 75. From the stated line capacities you've indicated, this is probably sk60. I recall you mentioned something around testing and rating lines - average breaking strength vs ??? Are all lines rated by Average breaking strength or Minimum breaking strength? If so, why the discrepancy in rating?

Ill type more tomorrow when I'm not using my thumbs. Some use average, some minimum. Samson uses spliced strength where some cite unsolicited to make their lines look better. It's not always apples to apples.
 
I'm still waiting to hear from the manufacturer whether it is sk60 or 75. From the stated line capacities you've indicated, this is probably sk60. I recall you mentioned something around testing and rating lines - average breaking strength vs ??? Are all lines rated by Average breaking strength or Minimum breaking strength? If so, why the discrepancy in rating?

O'tay. Let's see what I can type up here about ABS vs MBS vs WLL vs SWL vs Safety Factor.

ABS = Average Break Strength
MBS = Minimum Break Strength
WLL = Working Load Limit
SWL = Safe Working Load

ABS is pretty self explanatory. The ABS of a product is the average loading where a product is expected to break. There will be higher and lower breaks, but this is the average. This is typically determined by testing products to failure.

MBS is also pretty self explanatory. It is the minimum at which a product is expected to break - so the low break that was factored into the ABS. This is typically determined by testing products to failure. Standard deviations are used also to keep a very very high percentage of expected breaks above the MBS.

WLL is a fraction of the break strength of a procut, often 1/4 but you will also see anywhere from 1/2 to 1/6. So the break strength of a product would be anywhere from 2 to 6 times usually the WLL. This gives you a margin of safety that a shackle that is rated for 62,000 lbs ABS but has a WLL of 4.75 tons, or 9,500 lbs, should be able to operate safely at the WLL. This is important for rigging where injury or death can occur. This is especially important for lifting operations. Think of WLL as a "Design Load" or the maximum load the product is designed to encounter. You also need to think about the 'Yield Strength' of a product such as a shackle. A shackle will typically yield before it breaks - just to throw another bit of knowledge out there to stew on... Also, while shackles might have the same bow diameter and WLL, their safety factors, and therefore their break strengths, might be quite different. See more below.

SWL has been replace by WLL. "Safe" can be a bit of a misnomer.

Safety Factor is the number of times the actual break strength is larger than a WLL. So if a 3/4" Van Beest shackle has a WLL of 4.75 tons, or 9,500 lbs, and an actual break of 62,000 lbs, the Safety Factor is over 6.

So, why do some manufacturers use ABS and some use MBS? There are many reasons and I'll just touch on a few.

MBS is often used in the rigging (lifting) industry. Using MBS can help a bit with safety and liability when it comes to rigging, and much of the off-road recovery products you see come from rigging - BUT - rigging often deals with lifting and off-road we are pulling. These are very similar but also very different. For instance, with snatch straps and kinetic recovery ropes we want stretch. To get maximum stretch we have to near the breaking point of the device. If a kinetic recovery rope can stretch up to 30% but has an ABS of 30,000 lbs (to use a nice even number) then you only get 10% stretch at 10,000 lbs, 20% stretch at 20,000 lbs, and if you reeeeeealy need that full 30% stretch you are flirting with the rope going KAPOW!!!! and breaking.

Also think about the consequences of a broken product in lifting versus pulling. In lifting something is coming down when a product breaks which = a very likely chance someone could be hurt or killed. In pulling if a product breaks hopefully (hopefully) a vehicle is being safely operated and is not going to roll backwards. It can't drop because it is not being lifted. While in pulling there are definite significant chances for bad things to happen when a product breaks, it is different than lifting.

Lets chat a bit about synthetic winch line rating. Samson, who manufacturers Amsteel Blue, which is a Dyneema SK75 fiber, rates their lines with an ABS. But not all ABS's are equal. Samson's ABS is the spliced strength. Some line companies state the unspliced strength as ABS - so one company's ABS might not be the same as another company's ABS. All splices are not equal, and even the same two splices will act differently on their respective lines depending on technique, application, and skill of the splicer. I've taken apart numerous spliced lines for repairs, and sometimes just to add additional hardware, like a hook on to a bare thimble, to find out that the splice was improperly done. I have some pics of this that I need to post up...

Also look at products that are, let us say, manufactured at a poorer level of quality. At Southeast Overland we have repaired several lines made of inferior products, along with many lines made of quality materials. I have a piece of a "budget line" in the shop that has two very easy pulls on it and was in horrible shape for the amount of use it had seen. I also have part of a line in the shop that we repaired that was quality line and while it did break eventually it saw many more pulls and much more use than the budget line and appeared to be in about the same shape for the line. The quality hardware was still serviceable though, and the "budget line" hardware was trash.

With the popularity growing of synthetic winch lines, particularly Dyneema SK75, you will start to see more manufacturers producing the line for import into the US and other countries. Southeast Overland has been approached a couple of times by overseas companies to import their lines. I personally have dealt with importing for long enough to know what to look out for and I will not import synthetic winch lines from certain countries. While quality products are made from these locations a bunch of crap, for lack of a better word, is also made there.

Please note too that all Dyneema lines are not the same. SK90 is stronger than 75 which is stronger than 60. Most quality synthetic winch lines are made of Dyneema SK75. While 90 is stronger than 75 it is not widely used due to the increase in cost versus the increase in strength. SK75 hits a nice point of cost to strength. SK60 is used in many "budget" lines and is not as strong as SK75. Winch lines often have a woefully inadequate safety factor anyways, so reducing your line strength by using SK60 is headed in the wrong direction when dealing with safety.

If you do see a budget synthetic winch line with similar ratings to Amsteel Blue (3/8" = ABS of 19,600 lbs) check the diameter. One 'trick' that is being used is for less quality foreign manufactured lines to put a thicker line out there to match the ABS of a thinner, quality line. While you have the initial strength I have my doubts from my experience repairing these lines of the long-term strength. You also loose line capacity on the drum. A M8000 can hold 100' of 5/16" or 85' of 3/8". If you go up to 7/16" you lose additional capacity. You need 8 wraps minimum to keep your line attached to your winch, so take off that length and very soon you have a very short section of line that you can spool off your drum to attach safely to an anchor.

LOL - and timing is funny sometimes. I just received some load tested products back in the shop of a prototype product we are developing. This will be interesting to look at...

And now that my hands hurt from typing I'll hit 'reply' and let me know if there are any other questions.

:cheers:
 
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That was extremely informative and I'll repost this to our regional toyota forum. Thanks for putting the effort into the response.

IMHO, I think MBS makes the most sense as it allows one to work off a constant, rather than average which may incorporate the outliers. We have all seen pulls where there was no consideration for how much was being pulled, what limits were being approached (or exceeded). The lifting industry has higher risk exposure (gravity as you pointed out) which is likely why they have gone this route. Liability and negligence can be hard lessons.

The splicing is a major concern for me - as you have encountered a few times, you can have the super winch lines of the world and still have failure at the splice. Human error is the failure here, however it was introduced.

I'll have to look at the diameter again but i believe it is 10mm. This tells me it aligns with your comments on adding width with a lower rated line ie.. sk60.

Thanks again for the info.
 
You are very welcome.

FYI one splice I have here on a budget winch line had an extremely improper taper and outside of the taper no, zero, nada bury at all.

MBS is often three standard deviations below average, which makes 98.something percent of breaks statistically supposed to happen above the MBS.
 
If you have a picture of a proper splice and a crap splice (with what to look for), i'm sure many folks will benefit from understanding through a pic..
 
The line we use in 3/8" has a ABS of 19,600 lbs before splicing and our 5/16" is 13,700 lbs. The 3/8" you are looking at with a BS of 16.000 lbs is in the middle of those two so I'm curious as to the line type and manufacturer also. Check on that bc some line types perform substantially different than the Dyneema SK75 that most are used to.

Steve,

The data Samson has on their ratings is for spliced line. The splice does not take away from the strength of the line.

Not nit-picking, but the common thought in the winch line world is that the splice automatically reduces line strength by 10% or so. But a synthetic line can not be tested unless it has an eye in it, hence its spliced and the failure numbers they get are on a spliced line. It even states as such on the product page, at the bottom of the listing for size-strength...

Specifications are for spliced strengths.

http://www.samsonrope.com/Pages/Product.aspx?ProductID=872

Something to keep in mind when a WLL is being determined, if one is inclined to do so.
 
Steve,

The data Samson has on their ratings is for spliced line. The splice does not take away from the strength of the line.

Not nit-picking, but the common thought in the winch line world is that the splice automatically reduces line strength by 10% or so. But a synthetic line can not be tested unless it has an eye in it, hence its spliced and the failure numbers they get are on a spliced line. It even states as such on the product page, at the bottom of the listing for size-strength...

http://www.samsonrope.com/Pages/Product.aspx?ProductID=872

Something to keep in mind when a WLL is being determined, if one is inclined to do so.

Look at what I said below.

Samson's ABS is the spliced strength. Some line companies state the unspliced strength as ABS - so one company's ABS might not be the same as another company's ABS. All splices are not equal, and even the same two splices will act differently on their respective lines depending on technique, application, and skill of the splicer. I've taken apart numerous spliced lines for repairs, and sometimes just to add additional hardware, like a hook on to a bare thimble, to find out that the splice was improperly done. I have some pics of this that I need to post up...

See my quote above from this thread. Ive read the Samson materials plenty of times and I've pointed out what you said to many people. All splices are not the same. A direct bury has a different impact on a line than a locked brummel, and even between two splices that appear to be identical there can be differences due to the impact of the splices being made by hand and human error playing a roll. To clarify even further I added "(depending on the splice)" to the partial post you quoted because Samson specs a direct bury while many use a locked brummel. All things are not equal and I was trying to keep my explanations simple and short but that got tossed out the window with my long windedness on a later post. That's OK though...

And when load testing the effect of the spliced eye can be backed our mathematically if one is so inclined. I've seen so much happen with imported products through my experience importing that I would not one bit doubt that numbers are skewed and products are misrepresented and products even switched before shipping. Been there - had that happen - and seen it happen to others both in the off-road industry and outside this industry. I'm speaking to importing in general, and not the $109 winch line specifically.

I've done plenty of load testing and have several broken products sitting on my splicing bench that are ready to go to production. I was trying my best to not write a thesis in this thread but it appears to be turning into that but no worries. I'm happy to help MUD'rs out however I can. The products on my bench that I received yesterday were spliced all by me and I tried to make them absolutely identical - yet there was still appx 1,000 lbs of difference IIRC in the break between them - and drum roooollllll... the breaks happened at a portion of the line where there was not a splice - the same spot in all of the products that were tested. That means if there is 1,000 lbs of difference in break strength in a line in a portion that was not touched by a splice then imagine what can happen when someone's fingers start manipulating the fibers and strands of a line.

And take all that I've discussed and then throw it into an extremely fluid and unpredictable off-road environment where lines are often dynamically loaded and anything can happen. I've wheeled and beat the tar out of many products and been able to inspect many other products that people have heavily used off road. It is an extremely enlightening and very useful occasion every time I get to inspect what I'd call" tortured products". Doing so has influenced the evolution of how I splice and finish products.

Jordan345 - I'll get you some splice pics as examples ASAP. Today is going to be nuts with the sales I need to fill and get shipped so it might be Friday or Saturday. Thanks!

:cheers:
 
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Great - no rush Steve.
 
Great - no rush Steve.

Thanks. :-)

I have a bunch of pics of one line in particular that made my eyes bug out. I still have the pieces including the original splice in the shop. I've meant for almost a year to get those pics into a thread with a good description but I haven't gotten around to it yet. This is a good nudge to do that. I think it will be good info.
 
Definitely.. many of us are looking at the splices and thimbles like they are two headed aliens.. It would be good to point out what is 'bad' and what is 'good'.. nudge nudge;)
 

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