Really? Seems very unlikely.
Table Mesa Road?
Woodpecker?
Ajax?
Martinez Cabin/Canyon?
Box Canyon?
Coke Ovens?
Walnut Canyon/BattleAxe?
All of the above are on STL or you have to cross STL for access.
State trust land permit $ increases
- Thread starter Heatstroke
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Really? Seems very unlikely.
Table Mesa Road?
Woodpecker?
Ajax?
Martinez Cabin/Canyon?
Box Canyon?
Coke Ovens?
Walnut Canyon/BattleAxe?
All of the above are on STL or you have to cross STL for access.
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To the best of my knowledge none of the Florance Junction trails mentioned are on state trust land. It's legal to cross without a permit, in other words if your going to Ajax, air down at the highway and drive to the cattle guard, from there on it's BLM land, no permit needed.
If you want to camp where TTORA does or run any trails on state trust land, etc a permit is needed. But Cottonwood Canyon Rd, Mineral Mountain Rd, etc are public access roads, no permit needed to drive on them.
I think Tools answered for me. I have only crossed STL land on my way to wheeling areas. The only time I have ever "used" STL was while hunting.
But no, I have not been to the Ovens. In FJ, I have only been on Box, Martinez, and some of Woodpecker.
The trouble is we need a permit to cross. Plus, most of the trails around FJ are simply on the STL itself.
Howdy! According to the Arizona State Land Board home page, permits are NOT needed to cross on hiways or public roads. John
Hey John. Do you have a link to there? It's pretty clear on the STL site that you need the permit if you're on their road.
I'd luv to not buy this permit for $75 though I don't see a way around it. Especially around FJ...the trails are what we recreate on and they are on STL therefore we must carry a permit.
On route into Copper Creek with Expeditions West we were stopped by patrol. Scott had to show his Commercial Permit despite us only "crossing" the land.
I guess a grey area is Table Mesa Road though the STL sign at the spot makes it clear to me. To get from I-17 to the TNF one must cross about half mile of STL. The rest is OK.
"Recreational permits are issued for non-commercial activities such as camping (14 day limit), hiking, photography, horseback riding, picnicking, bird watching, motorized and non-motorized use on trails, and other forms of non-consumptive recreation. Any activity which is commercial in nature, requires a Commercial Lease or Special Land Use Permit."
This may be the loop hole for Table Mesa Road. It won't help around FJ though because the roads we would be on are roads we are recreating on. We need the permit to recreate, camp, Jeep Tour, etc. I guess I'll buy a permit again.
"Recreational access is outlined under State Land Department A.A.C. Rule R12-5-533(D). Under this rule a recreationist would need a permit to gain access to State Trust land or to other lands beyond Trust land unless traveling on a public road or highway."
Yes, but once ON STL, you need a permit to recreate (Jeeping, camping, etc). Even the Well's 4WD book state it's needed on FJ, Table Mesa, etc.
Exactly.
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We need a more definitive answer. My info came from Patrick (at the time the manager of the Tucson BLM office), he explained it as a permit isn’t needed as long as your simply crossing on a public road, he called Cottonwood and Mineral Mountain public, mapped roads. If your leaving the public road for any reason the permit is needed. He said that you don’t need a permit to drive to Florence on 79, it’s a public road, according to him Cottonwood and Mineral Mountain are also public roads, so if your simply passing through, it’s legal.
From several conversations/arguments with him and his officers about Box, Martinez and Woodpecker I’m very confident that those are BLM responsibility, or they claim them. In the BLM land use meetings that I have attended, all of the popular FJ trails have been brought up and beaten to death. They seam to be concerned as to how they fit in their land use plans, so it would be my guess that they have jurisdiction, if not why would they care or waste time bringing them up in their planning meetings? I don’t have a detailed map here that shows the exact boundaries and trails to see if any of the trails are on trust land, will have to look at home.
In the past I didn’t have any big problems with the state trust program, not a great program, not the worst. But I do have a problem with the “new” program, pretty much a new tax, money grab, that has zero benefit to the land, schools that the original was setup to benefit. So if I can avoid it, won't be buying a new permit, supporting the “new program”. Reread post #16.
From several conversations/arguments with him and his officers about Box, Martinez and Woodpecker I’m very confident that those are BLM responsibility, or they claim them. In the BLM land use meetings that I have attended, all of the popular FJ trails have been brought up and beaten to death. They seam to be concerned as to how they fit in their land use plans, so it would be my guess that they have jurisdiction, if not why would they care or waste time bringing them up in their planning meetings? I don’t have a detailed map here that shows the exact boundaries and trails to see if any of the trails are on trust land, will have to look at home.
In the past I didn’t have any big problems with the state trust program, not a great program, not the worst. But I do have a problem with the “new” program, pretty much a new tax, money grab, that has zero benefit to the land, schools that the original was setup to benefit. So if I can avoid it, won't be buying a new permit, supporting the “new program”. Reread post #16.
Most of the FJ area is STL.
And I'm with you on the rediculous permit cost. But what is one to do if you want to play by the book? I'll pay....but none of the quad drivers will. They'll continue to simply litter the trail instead of packing it out.
Whatever John, just rest assured, if you're wheeling with me, I probably have a rifle and my hunting license in the rig. Mt Lion is always in season.
I don't think you understood me. A public road isn't necessarily paved. On the maps, they have 'roads' and 'trails'. Most of the FJ area trails aren't on state trust land, from what I have heard. I don't have a definitive answer, but I suppose a look at a map of state trust land would give them to us. Know where to find one of those?
-Spike
how much is the fine?
in college a sticker for the lot i wanted cost $300/year. i parked there every day and got ~$150 in tickets. know what i'm sayin'?
in college a sticker for the lot i wanted cost $300/year. i parked there every day and got ~$150 in tickets. know what i'm sayin'?
I found a link to an interactive map of state trust land. Arizona State Land Department | Maps | Online Maps Click on 'start map server' in the Interactive Map section.
By zooming in to scale = .42 mile, I could see Cottonwood Canyon road (which is labeled as a road, so I assume it's a public road and OK to travel on without the STL permit), and following it I located Mineral Mountain Road, Woodpecker Trail, Ajax Trail, and Telegraph Canyon Road, which I followed all the way to Superior. A small section of Lower Ajax (trail) is on state trust land, as is the first few miles of Cottonwood Canyon Road. Woodpecker, Upper Ajax, and the area northeast of there is not STL. Also, Box Canyon Road is not STL. The Martinez Canyon loop is labeled as a 'road', and is also not on STL. I don't see any reason to purchase an STL permit unless I get excited about running Lower Ajax in my wife's truck some day, and the possibility exists that even that may be considered a 'road' as it's labeled on the map. I could go either way on that, but to know for sure I guess I'd need to talk to whoever enforces the law there. Problem is, they probably wouldn't truly know either- I suspect it would take a lawyer to interpret exactly where the public road ends. Camping off the first couple of miles of Cottonwood Canyon Road (TTORA) would surely require a permit, but you could just go down the road a bit and be out of STL. I'd have to say this is a non-issue, although I could see the authorities issuing a ticket (or hassling someone) in the belief that they 'know what they're doing', but it wouldn't stand up in court.
I looked for the coke ovens, somewhere near the 'Cochran Townsite', but couldn't find them specifically. However, the road to Cochran Townsite is labeled Cochran Road, and very little of it is on STL near the river. Cochran Road does meander through a few STL parcels farther south of the river, and there is a parcel in the vicinity a ways north of the river.
Here is the rule on crossong STL, from this page: http://www.land.state.az.us/programs/natural/recreation_permit.htm
"ACCESS ACROSS STATE LAND FOR RECREATIONAL PURPOSES
Recreational access is outlined under State Land Department A.A.C. Rule R12-5-533(D). Under this rule a recreationist would need a permit to gain access to State Trust land or to other lands beyond Trust land unless traveling on a public road or highway."
I found a definition of a public road by the Arizona State Land Department, http://www.land.state.az.us/programs/operations/applications/GroupRec.pdf
"4. “Public roads and highways” means the entire width between the boundary lines of every public road or highway maintained by the federal government, the State, the Department or a city, town or county if any part of the road or highway is generally open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel."
To summarize all this crap, one of the trails (Lower Ajax) I looked for in the FJ area was on state trust land, the rest were not. Access to the trails across STL is permitted on public roads and highways, which are numerous in the area. I feel comfortable not purchasing a state trust land permit.
-Spike
By zooming in to scale = .42 mile, I could see Cottonwood Canyon road (which is labeled as a road, so I assume it's a public road and OK to travel on without the STL permit), and following it I located Mineral Mountain Road, Woodpecker Trail, Ajax Trail, and Telegraph Canyon Road, which I followed all the way to Superior. A small section of Lower Ajax (trail) is on state trust land, as is the first few miles of Cottonwood Canyon Road. Woodpecker, Upper Ajax, and the area northeast of there is not STL. Also, Box Canyon Road is not STL. The Martinez Canyon loop is labeled as a 'road', and is also not on STL. I don't see any reason to purchase an STL permit unless I get excited about running Lower Ajax in my wife's truck some day, and the possibility exists that even that may be considered a 'road' as it's labeled on the map. I could go either way on that, but to know for sure I guess I'd need to talk to whoever enforces the law there. Problem is, they probably wouldn't truly know either- I suspect it would take a lawyer to interpret exactly where the public road ends. Camping off the first couple of miles of Cottonwood Canyon Road (TTORA) would surely require a permit, but you could just go down the road a bit and be out of STL. I'd have to say this is a non-issue, although I could see the authorities issuing a ticket (or hassling someone) in the belief that they 'know what they're doing', but it wouldn't stand up in court.
I looked for the coke ovens, somewhere near the 'Cochran Townsite', but couldn't find them specifically. However, the road to Cochran Townsite is labeled Cochran Road, and very little of it is on STL near the river. Cochran Road does meander through a few STL parcels farther south of the river, and there is a parcel in the vicinity a ways north of the river.
Here is the rule on crossong STL, from this page: http://www.land.state.az.us/programs/natural/recreation_permit.htm
"ACCESS ACROSS STATE LAND FOR RECREATIONAL PURPOSES
Recreational access is outlined under State Land Department A.A.C. Rule R12-5-533(D). Under this rule a recreationist would need a permit to gain access to State Trust land or to other lands beyond Trust land unless traveling on a public road or highway."
I found a definition of a public road by the Arizona State Land Department, http://www.land.state.az.us/programs/operations/applications/GroupRec.pdf
"4. “Public roads and highways” means the entire width between the boundary lines of every public road or highway maintained by the federal government, the State, the Department or a city, town or county if any part of the road or highway is generally open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel."
To summarize all this crap, one of the trails (Lower Ajax) I looked for in the FJ area was on state trust land, the rest were not. Access to the trails across STL is permitted on public roads and highways, which are numerous in the area. I feel comfortable not purchasing a state trust land permit.
-Spike
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Howdy! If you really want a permit, then get one. If you postmark it before 1 August, then it only costs $15/20, otherwise, you pay the big bucks. Blank app is on their web site. John
