Shakes @ 65

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Just got the restults for the balance using the Hunter Tire test Equipment. 3 of the 4 tires failed. Results were 34lbs, 63 lbs, 17lbs (pass) and 74 lbs.

So now I have contacted the dealer and he is ordering Michelin LTX. We shall see what happens.
 
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Jim why would this be an issue if he is using the same wheels and lug nuts? The only thing that has changed are the tires. The tires are the problem. You can try to super balance them but you know the old saying garbage in garbage out. Get some good tires.

It matters because without knowing that the wheels are lug-centric the technician will be trying to balance the wheel/tire combination off of the hub. Using the hub the tires will not balanced from their "on vehicle" center. The center hole on the landcruiser wheel is for hub clearance but is not how the wheel is attached to the truck. This is different from many vehicles where the center hole or "hub" is the key attachment point for the wheels. The wheels will balance on the machine using the "hub" but when placed on the vehicle will cause problems. If properly balanced using the lugs (w/ an adapter) then it is possible to detirmine if the tires are the problem.

Just got the restults for the balance using the Hunter Tire test Equipment. 3 of the 4 tires failed. Results were 34lbs, 63 lbs, 17lbs (pass) and 74 lbs.

I'm am suprised to to see 3 of 4 tires failed to balance. Looks like you found the problem. So much for name brand quality. :rolleyes:

Did your shop use the Haweka adaptor?
 
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Well. I will throw my results in the mix.
Again, I had the same shake you describe but with all of my tires. Bridgestone stockers on 18's and my Nitto TGs on 18's.

Both shake at the same place 55-65 and both have been "balanced" Bridgestones were factory takeoffs so they should be fine and the TGs were on a regular machine.

I just took the front end down to the spindle in the front and replaced all the bearings and torqued them to spec.

Vibration is gone.

I drove it today and it is smooth as glass.
 
It matters because without knowing that the wheels are lug-centric the technician will be trying to balance the wheel/tire combination off of the hub. Using the hub the tires will not balanced from their "on vehicle" center. The center hole on the landcruiser wheel is for hub clearance but is not how the wheel is attached to the truck. This is different from many vehicles where the center hole or "hub" is the key attachment point for the wheels. The wheels will balance on the machine using the "hub" but when placed on the vehicle will cause problems. If properly balanced using the lugs (w/ an adapter) then it is possible to detirmine if the tires are the problem.
Did your shop use the Haweka adaptor?

What you are saying makes perfect sense. But wouldn't any shop that does this work have the information needed to do a correct balance?
 
What you are saying makes perfect sense. But wouldn't any shop that does this work have the information needed to do a correct balance?

In my world, yes. :D But in my world a properly done balance wouldn't result in 3 of 4 brand-new brand-name tires being so out of spec as to be unserviceable. :rolleyes:

Lug-centric is still not the norm and so a tire tech who was "in-house trained" by the shop manager or owner 25 years out of vo-tech school will likely not be knowledgeable.
 
In my world, yes. :D But in my world a properly done balance wouldn't result in 3 of 4 brand-new brand-name tires being so out of spec as to be unserviceable. :rolleyes:

Lug-centric is still not the norm and so a tire tech who was "in-house trained" by the shop manager or owner 25 years out of vo-tech school will likely not be knowledgeable.

In my experience (including earlier years working as "tire Tech"):

Many "tire Techs", in most shops (including stealers), are not that concerned about whether a wheel is properly chucked to the balancer. As long as they can get it to spin without gross wobble, they consider it fine. They are not usually rewarded for extra-fine balancing vs. average so-so balancing. (What do you expect - tire Techs are usually low paid, high turnover, dirty/hazardous/harmful jobs.)

In most cases, these same Techs are the ones applying the Hunter GSP9700 RoadForce balancers. As can be expected, they bring the same attitudes & skills (ahem) to this task, for the most part. I've found that about 4 out of 5 Techs do not really apply the GSP9700 correctly and fully to get best results. My solution was to work directly with them as much as possible for my tires, but this is not easy in most cases nowadays - they don't like customers in the shop.

The lug-locating adapters are problematic. They are an extra cost for the shop, fit only a limited group of wheels per each adapter, require multiple interchangeable parts and exactly correct setup & adjustment to each unique wheel type, add unpaid time to the job, and are prone to wear and tear (and lost parts) in the dirty workaday shop. For these reasons, you almost never see them used in the real world - and if you do, there is a good chance that they are not yielding best results anyway.

The Toyota wheels may be lug-located by design, but my LX470 wheels can be located using the CL (center) hole as well. The CL hole was machined accurately enough to the CL that it works for balance locating. (Any machining operation of this scale can easily locate accurately enough to CL...if it doesn't, the operation is out-of-control, and Toyota/suppliers don't tolerate this, as a rule...) On my wheels, there is of course some error between center hole & lug holes, relative to CL, but not enough to matter in practice for balancing, from what I've seen. There is probably more error introduced by dirt on wheels and balancing equipment, wear etc. of balancing equipment, etc., than by the CL hole vs. the lug holes.

Interesting business-side note: Tire dealers have mixed feelings about the GSP9700. They don't like customers discovering that the tires are crap...dealers make less money that way. The GSP9700 highlights crap tires and removes the tire dealers' ability to convince unhappy customers that the vibration is normal, they should live with it. Every new car dealer has a GSP9700 now, but relatively few tire dealers have them. Guess why?

Another note: Tires can change their net force variation character over time and miles. My tires started out OK, but after 20-30k, a couple of them developed increased FV. So a single RoadForce balance is not guaranteed to ensure good results for the entire life of the tire...

Final note: Sometimes the GSP9700 can help reduce net road force variation and improve balance...and sometimes you can alleviate net vehicle vibration further by using info on high RFV tires to decide where to mount them. I recently reduced vehicle vibration by putting one high FV tire on front, the other on rear, to distribute inputs to front & rear (rather than both on front or rear simultaneously). This helped significantly in my case. (And FWIW, I'm running Michelins, those expensive premium tires...)

Again: I believe that the 100 series is simply sensitive to tire vibration, even when all is mechanically correct. I don't have any hard engineering or test data to support this...
 
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In my experience (including earlier years working as "tire Tech"):

Many "tire Techs", in most shops (including stealers), are not that concerned about whether a wheel is properly chucked to the balancer. As long as they can get it to spin without gross wobble, they consider it fine. They are not usually rewarded for extra-fine balancing vs. average so-so balancing. (What do you expect - tire Techs are usually low paid, high turnover, dirty/hazardous/harmful jobs.)

In most cases, these same Techs are the ones applying the Hunter GSP9700 RoadForce balancers. As can be expected, they bring the same attitudes & skills (ahem) to this task, for the most part. I've found that about 4 out of 5 Techs do not really apply the GSP9700 correctly and fully to get best results. My solution was to work directly with them as much as possible for my tires, but this is not easy in most cases nowadays - they don't like customers in the shop.

The lug-locating adapters are problematic. They are an extra cost for the shop, fit only a limited group of wheels per each adapter, require multiple interchangeable parts and exactly correct setup & adjustment to each unique wheel type, add unpaid time to the job, and are prone to wear and tear (and lost parts) in the dirty workaday shop. For these reasons, you almost never see them used in the real world - and if you do, there is a good chance that they are not yielding best results anyway.

The Toyota wheels may be lug-located by design, but my LX470 wheels can be located using the CL (center) hole as well. The CL hole was machined accurately enough to the CL that it works for balance locating. (Any machining operation of this scale can easily locate accurately enough to CL...if it doesn't, the operation is out-of-control, and Toyota/suppliers don't tolerate this, as a rule...) On my wheels, there is of course some error between center hole & lug holes, relative to CL, but not enough to matter in practice for balancing, from what I've seen. There is probably more error introduced by dirt on wheels and balancing equipment, wear etc. of balancing equipment, etc., than by the CL hole vs. the lug holes.

Interesting business-side note: Tire dealers have mixed feelings about the GSP9700. They don't like customers discovering that the tires are crap...dealers make less money that way. The GSP9700 highlights crap tires and removes the tire dealers' ability to convince unhappy customers that the vibration is normal, they should live with it. Every new car dealer has a GSP9700 now, but relatively few tire dealers have them. Guess why?

Another note: Tires can change their net force variation character over time and miles. My tires started out OK, but after 20-30k, a couple of them developed increased FV. So a single RoadForce balance is not guaranteed to ensure good results for the entire life of the tire...

Final note: Sometimes the GSP9700 can help reduce net road force variation and improve balance...and sometimes you can alleviate net vehicle vibration further by using info on high RFV tires to decide where to mount them. I recently reduced vehicle vibration by putting one high FV tire on front, the other on rear, to distribute inputs to front & rear (rather than both on front or rear simultaneously). This helped significantly in my case. (And FWIW, I'm running Michelins, those expensive premium tires...)

Again: I believe that the 100 series is simply sensitive to tire vibration, even when all is mechanically correct. I don't have any hard engineering or test data to support this...

Interesting perspective. So the dealers really think that when I come in with wornout tires that don't vibrate that they can do a crap job balancing my new tires and I'm going to buy that bs. Not going to happen, just like this guy, I'm going to keep coming back until they get it rignt and they will keep replacing tires until I have a smooth ride. Just like the guy who started this thread.
 
Guys, I just got back from 10 hours on the road with my 100 and the bearing job fixed mine 100%.

As you stated in the top of the thread, the bearings have been serviced...were they replaced? I tore mine down a month or so ago and looked at the outer bearings and repacked them and tightened the nuts to spec and the vibration stopped for about 100 miles. It came back.

Now that I have replaced the bearings (inside and out) the vibration is gone.

On visual inspection, I would not have replaced the bearings I took out. They looked good and tight to me, but obviously that was not the case.
 
I understand your view on tire dealers and balancing technology. My early work history in high school and college was with a local BP Station here in Ohio which sold a boat load of tires, which I did much of the mounting. Back then I did only bubble balancing, while the mechanics did on the car spin balancing. We had many odd tires but also rims which over time have become out of round.

I have not told the dealer of this and am keeping it on the QT. I guess I feel and edge this way. However it was n ot his suggestion that I go get the Hunter done. Frankly all they are doing is still spin balancing and showing me that everything is as it should.

But I agree that the 100 LC is sensitive to new tires or tire design. The Bridgestones are a stiffer tire than the Dunlops and I think, just as you, I can tell a difference. However feeling a difference and having the steering wheel vibrate at 65 is another item. In my last listing I stated that 3/4 tires failed. FYI, the distributor had only 3 on hand and had to order 1 more. Seems odd that 1 tire was good. Which one? I do not know.

The Michelin's are a softer tire like the Dunlops and hopefully everything will work out. I mental note I made today driving.....If I were only doing mainly in town driving and country roads vs highway, I doubt if I would be aware of the current problems. Call me anal but I spend half my day in the car, I do want it right.

I have Bridgestones on my 2000 LS400 and love them. Only did I know how good they were till I had the Lexus dealer rebalance after 5k miles. With a Hunter system.
 
Guys, I just got back from 10 hours on the road with my 100 and the bearing job fixed mine 100%.

As you stated in the top of the thread, the bearings have been serviced...were they replaced? I tore mine down a month or so ago and looked at the outer bearings and repacked them and tightened the nuts to spec and the vibration stopped for about 100 miles. It came back.

Now that I have replaced the bearings (inside and out) the vibration is gone.

On visual inspection, I would not have replaced the bearings I took out. They looked good and tight to me, but obviously that was not the case.


OOC did you preload the bearings via the FSM or just the old fashioned method of just taking out the play? I am still trying to isolate my driveline vibe and resonance since doing my entire driveline overhaul + R&P...
 
Interesting perspective. So the dealers really think that when I come in with wornout tires that don't vibrate that they can do a crap job balancing my new tires and I'm going to buy that bs. Not going to happen, just like this guy, I'm going to keep coming back until they get it rignt and they will keep replacing tires until I have a smooth ride. Just like the guy who started this thread.

I'm sure there are a very few tire dealers who honestly try to make sure you get the smoothest-riding tires - including issues with Force Variation, comprising the more difficult and costly vibration causes to fix.

But honestly investigating and correcting tire FV problems is costly. When it is done as part of the new tire purchase, it costs the tire dealer, distributor, & manufacturer. More cost, more hassle, less profit. No wonder most tire dealers try to sweep the problems under the rug. They prefer NOT having a GSP9700, so they can point to the "0,0" balancer results and say "look, the tires are fine, the problem must be with your vehicle. Have a nice day. Next customer please."

My favorite BS from tire dealers and other auto service people, regarding tire vibration on the LX470, is "what do you expect - it IS a truck, you know." As I like to respond, the Landcruiser is NOT a truck - it is NOT based on a truck, and was never designed as a truck platform. It is a unique design, intended only for Landcruiser, and the LX470 is a Lexus, a marque with a reputation for being smooth. (And besides, even a truck can be made to ride smoothly on the highway.) My last debate on this was with the local Lexus dealer service rep, of all people.
 
Right now the issue is the tires. Bearings can play into the whole situation but I am confident right now that bearing play has been elimated. Remember I had no issues before the new tires. New tires arrive today hopefully I can get them on, if not Tuesday.
 
OOC did you preload the bearings via the FSM or just the old fashioned method of just taking out the play? I am still trying to isolate my driveline vibe and resonance since doing my entire driveline overhaul + R&P...


I just snugged it up tight. IE the old-fashioned way.
 
Just put on the Michelins on today for replacement of the Bridgestones and guess what. Absolutely no vibration. Smooth tracking and I am as happy as a pig in you know what.

Just amazing the difference. So Dueller lovers but I can not recommend them due to my experience.
 
Just put on the Michelins on today for replacement of the Bridgestones and guess what. Absolutely no vibration. Smooth tracking and I am as happy as a pig in you know what.

Just amazing the difference. So Dueller lovers but I can not recommend them due to my experience.

That's great to hear! What Michelins did you get, in what size?
 
Michelin 114S or 114H?
 

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